frozenborderline

Senior Member
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4,405
I want to visually diagram everything and focus on likely feedback loops and things to interrupt , and hierarchies of importanve. This isn't a purely genetic disease but what factors have to be present for someone to succumb to this state when they are hit by toxins or infections that others could withstand?. Both the external and internal are important to me...

I haven't yet focused on mmp-9 and related metalloproteinases, just glossed over their role... I truly need to refine my website page on etiology somehow
There's also tgf beta, as well as tryptase

I've been very sick and not focused on things like that, mire focused on escapism.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
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4,405
Re mitochondria ?
"Genes residing in the mitochondria pose a particular problem, however — in part because they are unusually prone to damage. Unlike nuclear genes, which are wrapped in protective proteins and stored safely away in the nucleus, mitochondrial genes are vulnerable to attack from highly reactive molecules called free radicals; these are generated during energy production. In mammals, the mutation rate of mitochondrial genes is 10 to 20 times higher than that of the nuclear genes.
“Mitochondrial deficiency can theoretically give rise to any symptom, in any organ, at any age.”
The idea that mutations in mitochondrial DNA could cause metabolic diseases, or even ageing, has gained credence since Fred Sanger's group at the University of Cambridge, UK, sequenced the human mitochondrial genome2 in 1981. According to David Thorburn, at the Murdoch Children's Research Institute in Melbourne, Australia, in the decades since, pathogenic mutations have been discovered in more than 30 of the 37 human mitochondrial genes. These alterations range from changes to single DNA bases to deletions of large sections of the genome. Their effects are a long list of rare disorders, best diagnosed and treated by specialists, who refer to themselves as mitochondriacs."
@Hip @rpapen77
 

Learner1

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Location
Pacific Northwest
Lidocaine is a p2x7 antagonist, which is very interesting. The controversial cfs doc jay Goldstein used intravenous lidocaine in ME/CFS patients as one of his most used treatments.
I've had lidocaine injected 4-12 times a month for 7 years. I don't think it's done much overall for my ME/CFS.
I haven't yet focused on mmp-9 and related metalloproteinases, just glossed over their role
Here's a decent amount of info on MMP9. It's non specific and can be destructive as well as protective:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/mmp9

Mine was high st my suckers but it's very normal now, though I still do have some inflammation.
The idea that mutations in mitochondrial DNA could cause metabolic diseases,
They certainly can. This is true in primary mitochondrial diseases. The science for secondary mitochondrial diseases hasn't reached prime time yet, and even if you find you have such a problem, there are maybe 2 dozen doctors in the US who potentially might understand the problem, but there are no real treatments and no one will have any specific advice that can be depended on. The same gene mutation can cause entirely different mitochondrial diseases with different characteristics.

I've seen 4 mito docs and no one offered more help than what I was already doing - see attached.
 

Attachments

  • Mitochondrial_Correction Dagostino Seyfried Riordan Nicolson.pdf
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frozenborderline

Senior Member
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4,405
The crazy thing about how horrible my life is is unlike a number of patients I have been "lucky" to get clues, to get very abnormal bloodwork and diagnoses besides cfs alone, comorbidities, abnormal mris, access to surgeries that could help.

But does that mean that the doctors just help me and take care of everything and spearhead everything for me and I finally relax bc some things are figured out? No

I have to do so much research on etiology and on every possible experimental treatment available to me, and idk if I can even do it at this low point in my illness. I have to try and care for my state of mind, given my severity regular therapy isjt practical, even if it was , I havent found therapists to get this problem.
(And if u think the idea that we *could* do important stuff in etiology just as untrained citizen scientists is crazy, look at what patients did with the pace trial. They foiad the data and reanalyzed it themselves , they got very different results than the scientists who ran it got, who had been trying to keep the data secret, and it partially scientifically discredited a study that had been literally the main source for UK and US govt policy on me/cfs... a huge achievement.) Others have figured out through some scientific work how to biohacking aspects of their condition. Do I think its ideal to have to do this?NO!
Its insanely unfair. I'm typing this in pain, my neck tensing up, it's a cry for help, I cant sleep at 5 am and im.just looking at the etiology that I worked for years on and thinking about how fucking CLOSE the pieces are to coming together but my body and brain has nothing left in the tank to fit the rest of them together. This could solve more than just my illness but I can barely type, after I type this disorganized rant I will be crashing for all of tomorrow.

Nobody can help me with that. My youngest sister has taken more science than I have by far, and also has a healthy brain and access to professors and databases and , to reiterate, a healthy brain energy wise, which is a huge asset that allies dont understand how big a deal it can be. Like what takes me days could take her hours. But she basically doesnt seem to care enough about how badly I'm suffering to do anything about this. I shouldn't be venting on an account linked to my name about this but I dont have the energy to make a new one just to talk about this and maybe I'm beyond caring if she sees it. I have actually offered to pay her cash, decent amounts., for helping with the etiology, or giving her my nice film cameras (shes starting photography, and I cant do it since being sick) that are both sentimental and practical value, and worth a lot. Seemingly, the cash offers and the cameras aren't enough shes just too apathetic. I dont understand. When asking people I know with science backgrounds to help with the etiology I got a lot of nos but I assumed a family member, an immediate one, would be different. So instead of unclenching my neck or watching some movie with low volume and distracting myself I'm furiously typing, in pain that is inflicted by the only act of desperate communication and release I have.


I have given up a lot of things, well. Involuntarily , and voluntarily, I dont really have any pleasures anymore, have lost so much to the illness, all i have left is the believe that I can thread the needle and actually get remission despite the slim chances avg person with ME has.

I have clues , but they cant be put together bc the amount of organization and social capital to do that work quickly , is something I apparently dont have, not even with my own family. I would do anything to help my family member if the situation was reversed.
And yes, I've tried talking to her about it and it doesnt do anything, so I dont know. She did promise to help. But she has promised things before and didnt do them. She seems interested in social justice in terms of social media campaigns for things but not interested enough in disability justice to help with me and my illness. When I first worsened from housebound to almost bedbound, I had to move downstairs but she wouldn't let me have her room for a few months , which meant I had to crash myself going up and down the stairs to get things like food or water. I dont think she understands what my illness is. I'd rather believe that she doesnt understand than that she doesnt care.

My parents now care. They made lots of mistakes and earnes distrust early on, they did bad things and didnt initially believe me. But now they care and to an extent understand, but they are busy and overworked and cant just do the science , which isnt their background anyway, on top of their work. My other sister cares the most and has sacrificed everything to help me, but a single caregiver cant just take a ton of time on top of daily caregiving to do things like research. And she has adhd and mcas... we're both formally diagnosed and affected badly by mold . Probably everyone in my family is but we're the only ones not in denial about it
But my parents are running out of money to support me and I cant really get much from fundraising, which I need to buy time to stay near these doctors to figure out what's wrong. Even if I did, though, I cant see anything changing in terms of getting help to troubleshoot things like the etiology, which Is the most important thing I need help with.

Like everything scientific , it's a living document, and there were some things about it that were correct and prescient and some that need major updates. But I can barely write or type or think clearly. All I can do is complain I guess

It is utterly unfair that there are real things that are just out of reach that I cant access due to banalities like not having someone to help me with organizing and finishing this somewhat simple undergraduate level scientific document. Or not having someone to help me organize my dictated thoughts in general as I become too sick to type. Or not having enough home care. Even the occasional saline infusions would make things easier.
And having to organize everything between my doctors and etiology and do activist stuff (I havent been able to do much if any in person but have written lots of things and made videos as part of activist movements and publicizing ME to a general audience), and self care of any kind, and care for my traumatized soul ... and even consider making art about this experience on top of it ... god, how is it possible for someone with this disease to do all of that? It's so unfair, really. Not only are we abandoned in terms of research funding but when we try and figure things out ourselves and dig ourselves out of the hole we dont get help or a hand up from anyone , really, at least on the scale we need to recover. I wish one day I could wake up and just rest knowing that things were being taken care of by people around me .

I know this rant is disorganized and so on, and I know it may seem delusional thinking I could be close to a cure or figuring out the etiology or something but keep this in mind:
I have had access to surgeries that were for comorbidities of me/cfs that when treated often help the me/cfs and pots as well. I have had access to mcas treatment, I'm offered ivig for mcas and cvid and neuropathy.ive been diagnosed with neuropathy and pots and mcas and immune deficiencies and many treatable things and hereditary alpha tryptasemia, my tryptase and eosinophils and histamine and IgE are all consistently high, while total IgG is low and so is IgA, this is not a one time finding but rather a pattern, I have a history where I've improved, not total remission, but significant improvement, in good air, over and over again , I have enough response to things affecting NMDA and gaba to infer my glutamate is high in my brain, as it is in many me/cfs patients ... i have taken supplements that help pyruvate dehydrogenase with some success , saline to help blood volume has helped immensely short term... i am sure I'm leaving some stuff out bc there have been a lot of findings that were not standard. I am sure that I have enough clues to piece this bullshit together if I had time, money and HELP...

I know a lot of patients aren't lucky enough to have any clues or any abnormal lab tests but for me its almost torture to have clues but not be able to act on them. It really fucking sucks. It's like the greek myth of tantalus. I stay up tonight after taking heavy sleeping pills (guanfacine, nothing addictive, but still should knock me out) just begging ... god... maybe , anyone... to help me with this.
I dont feel lucky. I'm severely ill, I dont even have mold free housing , am in severe pain, am unable to listen to music as a former musician, my body continues to fall apart in novel ways that surprise and scare me, and trying to hold onto hope that I can get better is taking so much effort its destroying me. But after what I've seen about the patterns and testable and treatable not-so-mysterious parts of my illness how can I just relax and not think about it?

In short its unfair I have to carry this burden. And I wish there were allies that could organize extensive and aggressive protests at the NIH, and help more with care , and with things like etiological research, even "amateur" research.

I would happily deal with the loneliness and current loss of my youth and everything if I had an actual tangible plan and help to carry it out, to get better ,even if it will take years. But no... I cant even have this.

This probably seems like whining to some of you, maybe it doesnt. Maybe it sounds like something that resonates. I will say this. I have totally identified with that type of romantic "raging against the dying of the light" thing , like [Dylan thomas ](
)... I dont want to just wait this illness out peacefully.

And I cant pace really. I can here or there, but I have too much on my plate. I know that nobody else will do a lot of these things, I would rest and pace if someone else would , but I cant. Even if they were doing them at a slow but determined pace.

I feel terribly lonely about this. It's a loneliness worse than any lack of friends or romantic partners that is part and parcel of some of the fallout of this illness. It's the feeling that I'm alone in a doomed fight, that the noise of the world drowns out anything I could say in my strained, soft voice that has been weakened by illness. Like I have become a ghost... sometimes I think about how nearly everyone moved on with their lives in the social circles I had and it scares me more than it saddens me. I just disappeared. I feel as though I could go up to them and wave my hand in front of them and yell and try and get attention and they woulsnt see me, you know like happens in twilight zone episodes or horror movies? I sometimes go on social media and try and virtually shout like that but I dont get any response.

This burden is far too heavy for me , bc I am as light and insubstantial as air, and it is basically the weight of a whole world.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
An email I sent to family recently


got the idea from shoemaker books, he cites a lot of things. in his book shoemaker talks about how tgfbeta (inflammatory cytokine) connects the following things: mold illness, marfans syndrome (and other connective tissue problems), and cardiac and pulmonary fibrosis

the last things aren't as important (marfans and fibrosis) aren't as important, but it's interesting. the improtant thing is its connected to connective tissue

high in ppl who dont necessarily have congenital marfan;s syndrome, but just have eds-like problems in his patient population and have mold exposure, he thinks it's the missing link between mold issues and connective tissue problems

tryptase (meat tenderizer) high in mast cell activation syndrome but also hereditary alpha tryptasemia which is an emergent problem for lots of people with me/cfs and environmental sensitivities. it breaks down connective tissue

one or two paragraphs about these three factors (maybe even use symbols to show work flow) that link infection and environmental exposures and connective tissue damage

they're all part of the immune response to various things including pathogens, so that's the link

both in infection and environmental exposure, they prod the immune system, prompting them to release inflammatory factors

This Is not perfectly written and doesnt include mmp9 details but is what we want to add to the etiology. There is already one thing saying "inflammation " causes connective tissue damage and linking jen brea medium piece where she talks about this but it's better to have a direct source and maybe even diagrams for this part bc its central

Three main things are inflammatory factors that connect mold and infections and even maybe other pollution to degrading connective tissue. Mmp-9 and other matrix metalloproteinases , tgf-beta, and tryptase. I have reason to believe they're all high in my personal case but they're also high in mold illness and infection and can cause the type of connective tissue damage that would result in a case like mine. I've probably found studies linking all of them but in all of the craziness I just didnt cited those and detail this in the etiology page so can you just do this as your first assignment , write everything like it's a science paper

You dont need a million links for each although I realized you could link to another website page where we link like a million citations for all of these because it's all of great concern. But one or two studies for each thing. First the studies showing these are high in infection and mold exposure. Second the studies showing they damage connective tissue. Keywords to search in google scholar "tgf beta marfans" "tgf beta Jose montoya cfs" "tgf beta connective tissue" and look in shoemakers books which we have on kindle for stuff on these

This is your first written assignment.

Basically should be really really easy in some ways bc sammy and I already know all of the pieces but we are just a mess and dealing with a lot right now si you just have to put things together on your own. It will help show you understand how to do the research and

That you understand the greater context

You can look on MEPedia for more on mmp-9 and tryptase I think

And google scholar, and phoenixrising.me forum to find more on it

If you cant find anything really good just let me know. But the ideal thing is to show you can do work like this and just ask occasional question

I know basically all the studies but it hurts my neck to type. So even if you have to call me to ask

Basically it should also fit in between these two parts (attached images)

https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Matrix_metalloproteinase


Part II
Then the other big picture etiological thing is to piece together the part on the website with the part about metabolic trap and adaptive immunity


Anything that is unclear ask me or s______ to clarify , please copy and paste things like this into google docs or something to save them or have written notes and a whiteboard or something, we need to have some shared organizational platform.
 
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frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
An email I sent to family recently


got the idea from shoemaker books, he cites a lot of things. in his book shoemaker talks about how tgfbeta (inflammatory cytokine) connects the following things: mold illness, marfans syndrome (and other connective tissue problems), and cardiac and pulmonary fibrosis

the last things aren't as important (marfans and fibrosis) aren't as important, but it's interesting. the improtant thing is its connected to connective tissue

high in ppl who dont necessarily have congenital marfan;s syndrome, but just have eds-like problems in his patient population and have mold exposure, he thinks it's the missing link between mold issues and connective tissue problems

tryptase (meat tenderizer) high in mast cell activation syndrome but also hereditary alpha tryptasemia which is an emergent problem for lots of people with me/cfs and environmental sensitivities. it breaks down connective tissue

one or two paragraphs about these three factors (maybe even use symbols to show work flow) that link infection and environmental exposures and connective tissue damage

they're all part of the immune response to various things including pathogens, so that's the link

both in infection and environmental exposure, they prod the immune system, prompting them to release inflammatory factors

This Is not perfectly written and doesnt include mmp9 details but is what we want to add to the etiology. There is already one thing saying "inflammation " causes connective tissue damage and linking jen brea medium piece where she talks about this but it's better to have a direct source and maybe even diagrams for this part bc its central

Three main things are inflammatory factors that connect mold and infections and even maybe other pollution to degrading connective tissue. Mmp-9 and other matrix metalloproteinases , tgf-beta, and tryptase. I have reason to believe they're all high in my personal case but they're also high in mold illness and infection and can cause the type of connective tissue damage that would result in a case like mine. I've probably found studies linking all of them but in all of the craziness I just didnt cited those and detail this in the etiology page so can you just do this as your first assignment , write everything like it's a science paper

You dont need a million links for each although I realized you could link to another website page where we link like a million citations for all of these because it's all of great concern. But one or two studies for each thing. First the studies showing these are high in infection and mold exposure. Second the studies showing they damage connective tissue. Keywords to search in google scholar "tgf beta marfans" "tgf beta Jose montoya cfs" "tgf beta connective tissue" and look in shoemakers books which we have on kindle for stuff on these

This is your first written assignment.

Basically should be really really easy in some ways bc sammy and I already know all of the pieces but we are just a mess and dealing with a lot right now si you just have to put things together on your own. It will help show you understand how to do the research and

That you understand the greater context

You can look on MEPedia for more on mmp-9 and tryptase I think

And google scholar, and phoenixrising.me forum to find more on it

If you cant find anything really good just let me know. But the ideal thing is to show you can do work like this and just ask occasional question

I know basically all the studies but it hurts my neck to type. So even if you have to call me to ask

Basically it should also fit in between these two parts (attached images)

https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Matrix_metalloproteinase


Part II
Then the other big picture etiological thing is to piece together the part on the website with the part about metabolic trap and adaptive immunity


Anything that is unclear ask me or s______ to clarify , please copy and paste things like this into google docs or something to save them or have written notes and a whiteboard or something, we need to have some shared organizational platform.
These are the two photos I mention , just showing the parts that need to be connected with someone filling out the parts about mmp-9 and all the details of inflammatory damage of connective tissue
Screenshot_20220219-171308.png
Screenshot_20220219-171308.png
Screenshot_20220219-171924.png
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
Many patients with MCAS DONT have elevated tryptase, but we have other elevated mast cell markers, like PGD2 or F2.
Well, I'm partially taking myself as a case sfudy, and people I know with similar cases. I not only have elevated tryptase , I even have hereditary alpha tryptasemia on top of mcas
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
"Humans possess four major types of tryptases: the secreted, mast cell-expressed α- and β-tryptases, δ-tryptase, and membrane anchored γ-tryptase. Upon pro-peptide cleavage by cathepsin C, β-tryptase monomers form active tetramers in mast cell granules, where they are further stabilized by binding to serglycin proteoglycan carrying heparin glycosaminoglycan3,10. Since β-tryptase monomers are essentially inactive at physiological conditions, tetrameric β-tryptases are the predominant enzymatically active protease in mast cell granules10,11,12. A recent study has also shown that human α,β-heterotetrameric tryptases are also active proteases13. The activated tetramer stimulates a range of inflammatory and tissue remodeling processes through cleavage of a variety of substrates including proteinase-activated receptor (PAR-2), vasoactive intestinal peptide (VIP), matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs), fibronectin, and collagen7,8,9,14. "
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
Microglia activated by brain inflammation do output quinolinic acid (ref: 1) as well as glutamate. Since both quinolinic acid and glutamate are NMDA receptor agonists, the question arises as to whether quinolinic acid also plays a role in the NMDA receptor over-stimulation presumably caused by glutamate from microglial activation.

However, this study found that:
So it seems that there is not enough quinolinic acid being generated by activated microglia to over-stimulate NMDA receptors, and so in this respect, quinolinic acid is not a worry.

Though the interesting study you cited above does say that:
So during microglial activation, I guess it is not just the increase in quinolinic acid that may stimulate NMDA receptors, but also the concomitant decrease in kynurenic acid that lowers the protective kynurenic acid blockade of NMDA receptors. But again, whether this lowering of kynurenic acid is significant enough to have a net over-stimulatory effect on NMDA receptors is another question.
This is relevant. Both cognitive PEM and sound sensitivity I think are related to glutamate excess and to glial activation. This seems to tie in with the kynurenic acid/tryptophan pathway that is implicated in the "metabolic trap theory ".

Nmda antagonists have eliminated sound sensitivity for me in the past but also a sensation I describe as "brain on fire" and various types of pain and even cognitive PEM. But now my sound sensitivity and PEM is way worse and I'm trying to figure a way out
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
I'm in a desperate situation and trying to solve these two problems immediately: sensory sensitivity and cognitive PEM. Bc it's one thing to be bedridden but if you can't listen to music or read a bit it's worthless . I know for PEM I start thinking about saline as a solution bc of the autonomic/blood volume connection and bc it's helped me before but it's not long lasting. I think I can get home saline. So if I have home saline plus compression stockings , more salt, and fludrocortisone? (Florinef) to help retain the blood volume, would that possibly work? Or desmopressin?

@Hip what do you think of that idea?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
18,150
I'm in a desperate situation and trying to solve these two problems immediately: sensory sensitivity and cognitive PEM.

The only thing I found for the sound sensitivity (hyperacusis) symptoms of ME/CFS is very low-dose amisulpride (12.5 mg daily). I've taken this for 10 years now, and I have a thread about amisulpride.

It's also worth looking at hyperacusis forums or website for potential treatments.

Some more hyperacusis info and treatment ideas in this post.

My own experiments suggest that sound sensitivity relates to the dopamine receptors.



For mental/cognitive PEM, I have not yet pinned down a good treatment for this, but I have listed several candidates for an anti-cognitive PEM treatment in this post. That posts lists drugs and supplements which I noted seem to have anti-cognitive PEM effects; but I need to test them more fully.
 
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