My fatigue is gone. My poisoned feeling, gone. PEM, what PEM?

[xebex]

@Judee My bet is with terpenes. Cannabis terpenes can be very helpful to some. I think there was someone on here who had a great response to limonene, found in cannabis and other herbs.

I am a member of a cannabis forum where they treat various symptoms via strains with specific terpene values and ratios.

Maybe it's something to do with ρ-cymene and acetylcholine inhibition?

https://monq.com/eo/terpenes/cymene/

Other terpenes in cumin are ß-pinene, ρ-cymene, and γ-terpinene which all show promising medicinal value.

 

[Wishful]

Makes me wonder if it isn't something other than the cuminaldehyde if that degrades so easily

It could be that something in cumin seed protects the cuminaldehyde, even when ground. My 'two years and degraded but still working at double the dosage' cumin was in whole seed form. I expect ground cumin would degrade faster. Once I discovered its PEM-blocking effect, I bought small packets, which I used up rapidly enough.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I expect ground cumin would degrade faster.

....its not cumin....but...I had this jar of dried goldenseal , so very expensive and we feared it might go extinct. I used that same dried goldenseal as my general cure all for: 43 years.

 

[Hip]

Makes me wonder if it isn't something other than the cuminaldehyde if that degrades so easily.

For those who experience major benefits from cumin, it would be very easy to test if it is indeed cuminaldehyde that is responsible for those benefits, just by buying some pure cuminaldehyde from the sources detailed earlier, and seeing if it produces the same result.

About 1.6% of cumin is cuminaldehyde.

 

[Wishful]

Other terpenes in cumin are ß-pinene, ρ-cymene, and γ-terpinene which all show promising medicinal value.

Back when cumin first game me temporary remission, I found a list of chemicals in cumin, and then tried other herbs and spices which had some, but not all of that list. From that, cuminaldehyde seemed like the most likely suspect. Thinking back, maybe whatever it is stopped working before I finished testing all the others. So, you'll have to get the people it still works for to do more experiments.

 

[xebex]

If it’s anything like cannabis the entourage effect may be at play.

 

[katabasis]

About 50% of cumin is cuminaldehyde, so if using cuminaldehyde, the equivalent dose would be half the cumin dose.

It's actually cumin's essential oil that is 30-50% cuminaldehyde. Cumin as a spice consists of only 2.5-4.5% volatile oils. Taking values in the center of those ranges, cumin would be 1.4% cuminaldehyde by weight. If the effective dose is 1 tsp, or around 2 grams, then you'd only want 28 mg of cuminaldehyde, which is really only a drop or two if you have it pure. Would probably be easiest to dilute it to a known concentration for more accurate dosing.

 

[Hip]

It's actually cumin's essential oil that is 30-50% cuminaldehyde. Cumin as a spice consists of only 2.5-4.5% volatile oils. Taking values in the center of those ranges, cumin would be 1.4% cuminaldehyde by weight. If the effective dose is 1 tsp, or around 2 grams, then you'd only want 28 mg of cuminaldehyde, which is really only a drop or two if you have it pure. Would probably be easiest to dilute it to a known concentration for more accurate dosing.

I think you are right. Thanks for spotting this error.

I read this study which said that:

Cumin contains volatile oil (3-4%), cuminaldehyde, the major active principle, which is present to an extent of 45-50%.

I interpreted that sentence as saying there is 45-50% of cuminaldehyde in cumin. The sentence is not very clear, but I think it actually means that there is 45-50% cuminaldehyde in the volatile oils, and 3-4% volatile oils in cumin. So in fact around about 1.6% cuminaldehyde in cumin, if you calculate using those figures, which is similar to the value you gave.

Thanks, I will correct this error in my earlier posts.



Some other sources also corroborate this :
Here it says:

In this study by Wei et al, it should be pointed out that cuminaldehyde accounted for 48.77 % of the whole content of cumin essential oil

Here it says:

Generally, cumin seed contains 2 to 4% volatile oil and 15% fat. In the present study, the essential oil content varied from 2.2 to 3.2%. Cumin oil was reported to have significant flavour components, such as cuminaldehyde 18.3% and perilla aldehyde 8.17%, in addition to the terpenic hydrocarbons, whereas Egyptian cumin oil contains 39.2% cuminaldehyde.

 

[seamyb]

For those who experience major benefits from cumin, it would be very easy to test if it is indeed cuminaldehyde that is responsible for those benefits, just by buying some pure cuminaldehyde from the sources detailed earlier, and seeing if it produces the same result.

About 1.6% of cumin is cuminaldehyde.

This doesn't actually seem so easy.

I can't source cumin oil anywhere (plagued by black seed oil hits on google). And cuminaldehyde comes with warnings of danger of acute toxicity if swallowed.

Which is a pity, because I seem to get heartburn from a good whack of cumin and I think the effects are quite short-lived. I certainly don't get 3 days of relief from it. Hopefully there's some kind of compound effect over time.

Edit: I found cumin essential oil - but these essential oils are not safe for human consumption.

 

[Hip]

I can't source cumin oil anywhere (plagued by black seed oil hits on google).

If you Google search under the botanical name, you do find a few places selling cumin essential oil, like here and here.

Also on the UK eBay and Amazon.



In terms of dosing of cumin essential oil:

One level teaspoon of cumin powder weighs 2 grams (just weighed this on my precision scales, using some cumin from the kitchen spice rack).

So 1 level teaspoon of cumin will contain about 30 mg of cuminaldehyde, assuming 1.5% of cumin powder is cuminaldehyde.



One drop of an essential oil weighs about 40 mg (just weighed 10 drops on my scales and divided by 10).

So if we assume about half of the cumin essential oil is cuminaldehyde, then one drop of this essential oil will contain about 20 mg of cuminaldehyde.

Other measurements quoted in my above post indicate cumin essential oil contains only 18.3% cuminaldehyde, so in this case, one drop of the essential oil will contain only 7 mg of cuminaldehyde.

So to get the 30 mg dose of cuminaldehyde that you are getting from 1 level teaspoon of cumin, you would need something like two to four drops of cumin essential oil, depending on how much cuminaldehyde is in the oil.

Do double check my calculations though, as it is easy to make a mistake with brain fog.

 

[seamyb]

If you Google search under the botanical name, you do find a few places selling cumin essential oil, like here and here.

Also on the UK eBay and Amazon.



In terms of dosing of cumin essential oil:

One level teaspoon of cumin powder weighs 2 grams (just weighed this on my precision scales, using some cumin from the kitchen spice rack).

So 1 level teaspoon of cumin will contain about 30 mg of cuminaldehyde, assuming 1.5% of cumin powder is cuminaldehyde.



One drop of an essential oil weighs about 40 mg (just weighed 10 drops on my scales and divided by 10).

So if we assume about half of the cumin essential oil is cuminaldehyde, then one drop of this essential oil will contain about 20 mg of cuminaldehyde.

Other measurements quoted in my above post indicate cumin essential oil contains only 18.3% cuminaldehyde, so in this case, one drop of the essential oil will contain only 7 mg of cuminaldehyde.

So to get the 30 mg dose of cuminaldehyde that you are getting from 1 level teaspoon of cumin, you would need something like two to four drops of cumin essential oil, depending on how much cuminaldehyde is in the oil.

Do double check my calculations though, as it is easy to make a mistake with brain fog.

The only issue is that I wouldn't feel safe consuming the essential oil. They're manufactured for aromatherapy aren't they? I'd be too afraid to go drinking even a few drops of oil that isn't designed to be consumed.

 

[ljimbo423]

The only issue is that I wouldn't feel safe consuming the essential oil. They're manufactured for aromatherapy aren't they? I'd be too afraid to go drinking even a few drops of oil that isn't designed to be consumed.

That's the same concern I have about essential oils. There are several herb oils I'd like to take but I can only find them as essential oils for aromatherapy.

 

[xebex]

@seamyb maybe smelling them would work?

 

[Hip]

The only issue is that I wouldn't feel safe consuming the essential oil. They're manufactured for aromatherapy aren't they? I'd be too afraid to go drinking even a few drops of oil that isn't designed to be consumed.

Internal consumption of essential oils is considered controversial, with some practitioners saying it is fine, and others saying you shouldn't unless a herbalist tells you it is fine. I've taken dozens of essential oils internally myself, with doses up to 10 drop daily.

If you do take essential oils internally, it is normal advised to dilute them down in a carrier oil (like cooking oil). I usually dilute my essential oil drops in a tablespoon of sunflower cooking oil.

Some essential oils contain small amounts of natural carcinogens (that are present in the plant), so this might potentially be a concern, but only if you are taking the oil long-term, I would think.

The FDA have a list of essential oils which are GRAS (generally regarded as safe), and cumin is on that list.

 

[Wishful]

I'd be too afraid to go drinking even a few drops of oil that isn't designed to be consumed.

This site has cuminaldehyde, not designated as aromatherapy:

https://www.tcichemicals.com/OP/en/p/I0168

Their product might be synthetic, for all I know. Pretty much everything is toxic at the right dose, and safe at the right dose. I wouldn't hesitate to take pure cuminaldehyde (in cooking oil) at the equivalent dosage of one or even 6 tsps of ground cumin. It might even be safer, since one could have a bad reaction to something else in cumin seed.

@Hip , I wanted to mention that in addition to permanently curing my physically-induced PEM, I haven't experience cerebrally-induced PEM either. That was unexpected, since cumin didn't block my cerebrally-induced PEM. My need for T2 also disappeared at that time, so the three symptoms seem to be linked.

 

[Hip]

In terms of the LD50 of cuminaldehyde, this datasheet says the rat oral LD50 is 1390 mg/kg.

If we apply the usual animal to human dose conversion, that suggest the human LD50 might be in the order of 224 mg/kg. So for a 70 kg human, the lethal cuminaldehyde dose might be around 16 grams.

You cannot always convert animal to human LD50 values like this, but it provides a rough idea.

 

[seamyb]

This site has cuminaldehyde, not designated as aromatherapy:

https://www.tcichemicals.com/OP/en/p/I0168

Their product might be synthetic, for all I know. Pretty much everything is toxic at the right dose, and safe at the right dose. I wouldn't hesitate to take pure cuminaldehyde (in cooking oil) at the equivalent dosage of one or even 6 tsps of ground cumin. It might even be safer, since one could have a bad reaction to something else in cumin seed.

@Hip , I wanted to mention that in addition to permanently curing my physically-induced PEM, I haven't experience cerebrally-induced PEM either. That was unexpected, since cumin didn't block my cerebrally-induced PEM. My need for T2 also disappeared at that time, so the three symptoms seem to be linked.

If you look under the safety and regulations tab of that product, it says one of the hazards is:

H302 : Harmful if swallowed.

and a precautionary statement:

P301 + P312 + P330 : IF SWALLOWED: Call a POISON CENTER/doctor if you feel unwell. Rinse mouth.

 

[Hip]

Harmful if swallowed

Have you ever seen the materials safety datasheet for table salt, or similar innocuous substances?

Sodium Chloride

Skin Contact: Wash off immediately with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes. Get medical attention immediately if symptoms occur.

Ingestion: Get medical attention if symptoms occur. Clean mouth with water and drink afterwards plenty of water.

Materials safety datasheets always err on the side of caution.

 

[seamyb]

Have you ever seen the materials safety datasheet for tablet salt, or similar innocuous substances?


Materials safety datasheets always err on the side of caution.

Think I'm still a bit too chicken to try anything that isn't specifically made for ingestion.

On an unrelated note:
I've just seen a paper that shows that methylcobalamin decreases IL-6, IL-1 and TNF-alpha. These are also decreased by cuminaldehyde. Perhaps this is why both seem to have worked for me...

This might add more weight to the possibility I'm here from covid, as many believe long covid is cytokine mediated.

I know nothing about this, so I've a good deal of reading ahead.

 

[seamyb]

So I'm actually gonna look for new compounds.

Cumin is still working, but its (cumenaldehyde's) half life is 45 minutes and this, I think, is apparent in its effect. I take like 5 or 6 capsules and have to do this 3 times a day to hide my illness.

But it really does have a profound effect. My condition is a sinusoidal wave going from being in complete remission to very mild and back again. I went to bed at 0145 last night and got up at 0945 - I'm not fucked today either. Far from it.

I've thus far found luteolin which suppresses IL-1 beta, IL-6 and TNF-alpha. It has a half life of 4 or 5 hours and I can get it in an extract cheaply enough. Only issue is it chelates iron, so chronic use may cause issues.

Curcumin doesn't have great absorption. Quercetin may be a good shout - although I tried this ages ago and didn't notice anything (although I was experiencing vastly different symptoms then). Half life of quercetin is 11-28 hours.

If anybody knows of other such natural, cytokine suppressing chemicals I'd have otherwise have turned my nose up at, please let me know.