Multiple binders

[hb8847]

@seamyb I see Neil Nathan's book has arrived!

Does anybody have any knowledge on the correct way to take multiple binders? I'm taking charcoal at the minute and have bentonite clay on the way. Is it ok to take these two together, at the same time?

I take charcoal at night only, I don't like the idea of mopping up nutrients from my food. Is it ok to take both right before bed or is it better to alternate nights?

Also, what are your thoughts on taking it multiple times a day? Is it necessary and are my concerns about nutrients valid?

Thanks.

Good question and I was wondering the exact some thing. Although I don't see anything in the book about having to take these two apart from each other, I'm sure it would have mentioned it if that were the case.

Also I imagine as long as you're taking the binders away from food you shouldn't have to worry too much about them binding to nutrients, although if you're worried maybe take some vitamins to supplement at a different time if you can tolerate them.

How are you tolerating the Charcoal? My tolerance is very low, I can only seem to handle one 250mg capsule once every couple of days before my Herx reactions become too much to handle. But it's also sort of encouraging that it shows it's getting these toxins out of my system.

Bentonite clay I seem to tolerate better but apparently it doesn't bind to the mycotoxins I'm highest in (Ochratoxin) so for now I think I'm just gonna stick to the Charcoal and take it slowly, frustrating as that is.

Regarding bowel movements, I'm the same as you in that the sicker I get the more constipated I am. But the Charcoal doesn't seem to be helping that so I'm also taking magnesium citrate to try and keep things moving along.

Another thing I tried was to take some glutathione in the hope it cleared my Herx a bit quicker, but I don't think that's how it works as for me it seemed to worsen it (as presumably it just mobilised even more toxins than your body can deal with).

 

[seamyb]

I see Neil Nathan's book has arrived!

Sure did! Read about 60 pages the first night and was up til 5am. Oops!

How are you tolerating the Charcoal?

I don't know tbh. I tried it about a month or so ago for a while and didn't seem to notice any worsening. I stopped and tried again recently and I'm a lot sicker. I had a bit of stress recently that muddies the water, but it's possible it's hitting me quite hard. I've just got a worsening of my base illness but also more muscle pain, particularly in my back and chest. Weird and severe pain it is. How is it manifesting itself in you?

I also have the issue that I'd started biofilm busting and microbe killing before I'd really thought about detox pathways etc. As I've stopped that for over a week now, I might be getting some effect from regrowth. I've a horrible image in my head of just busting biofilm and spreading the dirty little buggers all over the place. My sinuses are quite bunged and I've never had this issue.

 

[wabi-sabi]

your very valid and well-reasoned objections

Oh, you make my addled brain feel better. I think i may be done arguing though, unless you really want more reasons....

it lowers my incidence of air hunger (but I've no idea what causes this, so meh).

In my experience air hunger is a facet of PEM. I remember when I was still mild and trying to walk up and down stairs. The first trip of the day- no problem. Second trip of the day, some shortness of breath. Third trip of the day-panting. It was a subtle, or not subtle, sign that I wasn't resting enough and hadn't recovered from exertion even though I thought I had.

I think it's also related to the dysautonomia and BP issues. I have slightly less of it when I compress and push fluid and salt. Not gone, just better.

 

[hb8847]

I've just got a worsening of my base illness but also more muscle pain, particularly in my back and chest. Weird and severe pain it is. How is it manifesting itself in you?

Yes, definitely back pain in the muscles I'm noticing, as well as just a general increase in malaise, headaches, fatigue, some brain fog etc. I wouldn't describe it as severe though (although my base line is pretty bad to begin with), it's just a bit worse than normal. How much have you taken? Might be an idea to reduce the dose.

I also have the issue that I'd started biofilm busting and microbe killing before I'd really thought about detox pathways etc. As I've stopped that for over a week now, I might be getting some effect from regrowth. I've a horrible image in my head of just busting biofilm and spreading the dirty little buggers all over the place. My sinuses are quite bunged and I've never had this issue.

Personally I wouldn't assume it's a regrowth or that you're spreading the illness around - the body is pretty resilient, and after getting rid of fungus from my gut years ago it didn't return, in spite of mould being present elsewhere in my body. I'd probably assume it's just a Herx and you're going at it too hard.

I'm sure the fact you did all that biofilm busting stuff recently will have also had an effect - if you do have a mould issue that will really flood your body with toxins and it's probably no surprise you had such a big reaction to it, if you're already reacting to the binders alone. I'd probably take it as a positive that you're reacting to it at all, which very likely means that it's a Herx reaction as opposed to anything else as Charcoal doesn't get absorbed into the blood stream, and just reduce and continue at a lower dose.

 

[Shanti1]

More is unknown about mycotoxins than is known. A particularly lacking area is their metabolism and excretion. I'd wager that given the clinical claims of the biotoxin community with regards to binders, the liver makes its best attempt at detoxifying these compounds but often it isn't enough to prevent illness.

My understanding is that toxins (including biotoxins) pass through phase I, which prepares them for conjugation by phase II. The preparation by phase I can often make them more toxic because they need to be made into reactive compounds to bind to phase II conjugates (you can run into trouble if you are low on these conjugates ie glutathione, methyl groups, sulfer, glucarate etc).

Phase II then binds to the toxin, making it "harmless" and water-soluble for excretion. What is sometimes not mentioned is that Phase II doesn't further transform the toxin and the toxin CAN be deconjugated in the gut (often by bacteria) and reabsorbed.

https://www.meta.org/papers/enterohepatic-circulation-physiological/12162761
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-34678-z
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/enterohepatic-circulation
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6651/12/10/628/pdf

Based on this, binders make sense to me for both intestinally produced toxins from dysbiosis and when detoxifying through the liver.

 

[seamyb]

In my experience air hunger is a facet of PEM.

Argh not with me! Very rarely have I had air hunger and also been ill with fatigue and malaise etc. My air hunger nearly always happens when I've made a huge improvement in all my usual symptoms. Which makes it very hard to figure out what is going on. The body's saying "you've a choice: feel very sick or feel unable to breathe properly". The former is so bad, I often choose the latter. Stupid illness!

How much have you taken?

I took 1 capsule the first day which is about 333mg. Because I'd taken 2 before, the next night I took 2. The following day I was rough and I've been rough since. So I didn't take any last night and might try with one every two nights. It's messy stuff to be splitting capsules isn't it?

you can run into trouble if you are low on these conjugates ie glutathione, methyl groups, sulfer, glucarate etc

Yes, this is a very good point. Not only does phase I produce a more toxic compound, it also produces reactive oxygen species. What is used to mop these up? Glutathione. What is used in phase II to deal with the toxic compound? Glutathione. I'd love a comprehensive list of nutrients required for liver detox. I have some of the aminos needed - taurine, glutamine etc but it's impossible to find a window of stability where I can assess their effect. Most information and most liver supplements contain herbs and other exogenous compounds. I just want to nurture the liver's natural processes. Having said this, I have bought milk thistle.

 

[hb8847]

I took 1 capsule the first day which is about 333mg. Because I'd taken 2 before, the next night I took 2. The following day I was rough and I've been rough since. So I didn't take any last night and might try with one every two nights. It's messy stuff to be splitting capsules isn't it?

Exact same as me! One the first day (250mg), no effect, then 2 then next day, and by the following morning I felt like shit. Since then I've pared it back to just the one every 2 days but it's even looking like that might be too much for me. I'm also adding in a Bentonite Clay capsule every now and then for good measure. And yes haha, splitting Charcoal capsules is messy business, think I'll just stick to the alternating-days plan for now.

 

[wabi-sabi]

Argh not with me! Very rarely have I had air hunger and also been ill with fatigue and malaise etc. My air hunger nearly always happens when I've made a huge improvement in all my usual symptoms.

So strange! Maybe when you feel very bad you are too ill to trigger air hunger so it only becomes a problem when you are otherwise feeling better.

 

[seamyb]

So strange! Maybe when you feel very bad you are too ill to trigger air hunger so it only becomes a problem when you are otherwise feeling better.

I've wondered whether it's an MCAS element to the disease. I can't even tell you what the downstream cause is. It feels like it could be airways inflaming. But it also feels like it could be a neurological phenomenon, either the signal isn't getting from the brain to the lungs properly, or the brain just thinks it hasn't taken enough air in when it has. But it also feels like it could be a problem with the muscles responsible for breathing. It's the most confusing symptom for me. I hate it.

And yes haha, splitting Charcoal capsules is messy business, think I'll just stick to the alternating-days plan for now.

We should maybe try it for a few days alternating. But if we're still noticing a worsening, we should probably get to splitting them. It's what Nathan would want.

 

[wabi-sabi]

It's the most confusing symptom for me.

It sure is!
I discovered that compression, water and salt help accidentally when working on the dysautonomia thing. I also have trouble with my breathing muscles-spasm and tightness- but the feeling that my on muscles are trying to suffocate me is different from the shortness of breath feeling.

 

[hb8847]

I've wondered whether it's an MCAS element to the disease.

I'm sure we've discussed this before, but have you tried antihistamines? I have MCAS and occasionally get some breathing issues (although not as bad as yours), and H2 blockers seem to have helped me with that, Famotidine specifically. You can order these online pretty easily or get H1 blockers over the counter.

We should maybe try it for a few days alternating. But if we're still noticing a worsening, we should probably get to splitting them. It's what Nathan would want.

True. Just the thought of only being able to tolerate a portion of a capsule every few days is so demoralising, it's so tempting to want to push it. But yeh, probably better to follow Lord Nathan's advice.

 

[seamyb]

but have you tried antihistamines?

Yea I tried H1 blockers. Didn't see any improvement. Can't seem to get H2 blockers anywhere without a prescription. Might not have taken the H1s for long enough, it'll be something I try again if it starts again. For the time being my air hunger is ok but I would bet on it coming back again.

Just the thought of only being able to tolerate a portion of a capsule every few days is so demoralising

Yea but that's only because we can't visualise how many molecules are contained in even seemingly small amounts of something. We're talking about carbon here. 1 gram of carbon-12 contains 6x10^23 atoms. 6 with 23 zeros after it. If you're taking a quarter of a gram, that's still a ridiculous amount of molecules, even after accounting for impurities. I'm actually thinking of cutting it down now lol.

 

[hb8847]

1 gram of carbon-12 contains 6x10^23 atoms. 6 with 23 zeros after it. If you're taking a quarter of a gram, that's still a ridiculous amount of molecules, even after accounting for impurities.

Haha you really did the maths

And very true, it's probably doing more than we think. Although I'm not sure each carbon atom will be nabbing up mould toxins, probably just every "grain" of charcoal. But there's probably a fair amount of that too.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

How are you tolerating the Charcoal? My tolerance is very low, I can only seem to handle one 250mg capsule once every couple of days before my Herx reactions become too much to handle.

is the charcoal causing your HERX reaction?

 

[seamyb]

Haha you really did the maths

And very true, it's probably doing more than we think. Although I'm not sure each carbon atom will be nabbing up mould toxins, probably just every "grain" of charcoal. But there's probably a fair amount of that too.

Yea that's true. Still, it probably suggests there are a lot of grains and "holes" even in small amounts.

And alls I did was divide Avagadro's number by 4

 

[hb8847]

is the charcoal causing your HERX reaction?

Pretty sure. That and the Bentonite is all I've added recently, both seem to cause a reaction.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Pretty sure

ok, well somehow I find that fascinating...

I think I"m taking the binder, on account of taking glycine or NAC or my lymph cleanse tea .

so just taking a bit of charcoal...?

so the reaction you feel is HERX (thats a die off, right?).

and not dETOX from metals or stored up toxins.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

That and the Bentonite

well my next thought is the drawing out of material in the biofilm of the intestines may be the reaction your feeling, whatever we call that. Is bad stuff leaving? And we just have to put up with it that way?

 

[hb8847]

ok, well somehow I find that fascinating...

I think I"m taking the binder, on account of taking glycine or NAC or my lymph cleanse tea .

so just taking a bit of charcoal...?

so the reaction you feel is HERX (thats a die off, right?).

and not dETOX from metals or stored up toxins.

Everything I've read about Herxheimer reactions (also called die-off) would suggest that this is one. They're generally thought to be a temporary exacerbation of one's normal symptoms (as all the toxins are what supposedly cause your symptoms to begin with). Another thing with the binders like Charcoal and Bentonite - neither of these compounds are absorbed by the blood, they just pass through the gut, and hence are very "unreactive". If the reaction was an allergic reaction or a direct reaction to the compound it would also be far more immediate, whereas the Herx reactions tend to be a bit delayed. In my case I felt nothing the first 2 or 3 days of taking Bentonite and Charcoal and then it hit me like a shovel; classic Herx.

Another thing is I've become pretty accustomed to Herx reactions because a few years back I was taking Nystatin powder (an anti-fungal) for gut-based fungus, and it triggered a very similar reaction. The Nystatin also does not get absorbed by the body, and the reactions were similarly delayed, and felt very much like the ones I get from these binders. And over the course of a year it gradually removed pretty much all the fungus from my gut, so it was very likely fungal toxins that was causing my reactions.

As for binders, as Seamyb mentioned earlier in this thread and Dr Nathan covers in his book, the supposed reason they trigger a Herx is because in removing toxins they also dislodge some which then get reabsorbed from the gut into the body - the subsequent toxin overload is too much for the immune system to handle & you feel like crap while it attempts to clear it from your body.

Of course, in my case it might not be mould toxins the binders are clearing and which are causing my reaction, but the way I see it it doesn't really matter - they're triggering a Herx, which means they're hopefully removing some sort of toxins, which can only be a good thing. I plan on doing this for a while and then reassessing after a while, hopefully I will have improved and be able to tolerate larger amounts of toxins and then eventually antifungals and biofilm busters to kill off the mould source.

 

[Shanti1]

@hb8847 I never considered that someone could herx from a substance designed to prevent herx! But the way you describe, it makes sense.