Microbiome - Butyrate - Inflammation
- Thread starter LINE
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@LINE I totally agree on probiotic supplements. You have no idea what you're going to get. With normal supplements it's the same, but you have at least an idea what you get and the effects, with probiotics none of that. Most times they don't even list the whole strain (for example Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG, leaving out the GG, or sometimes even just lactobacillus). That said, they could well be beneficial, but I prefer my own fermented foods instead (soy yoghurt, sauerkraut, kimchi, etc.).
Diversity of diet, prebiotics and probiotics seems to be the most important, with a high amount of fiber. I also managed to exclude all processes foods and added sugars from my diet. Just relying on a supplements won't work, but the addition of curcumin seemed to tip the balance positively.
That said all my energy goes into food. Last week I crashed from making kimchi, but thankfully it wasn't so bad.
Diversity of diet, prebiotics and probiotics seems to be the most important, with a high amount of fiber. I also managed to exclude all processes foods and added sugars from my diet. Just relying on a supplements won't work, but the addition of curcumin seemed to tip the balance positively.
That said all my energy goes into food. Last week I crashed from making kimchi, but thankfully it wasn't so bad.
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Synopsis:
I want to close out this discussion (thread) with some conclusions I have found. Please note that any experiment is a personal experience meaning my experience may be different than yours.
I did find butyrate to be somewhat helpful and at the same time, I found other substances helpful as well.
\
1. Glycine (particularly as bone stock (beef preferably)
2. Collagen peptides (same amino acid profile as the gut lining)
3. Creatine
4. beta Alanine
5. Carnitine
As I have continued on my education on the gut environment, I continually learn more about it. My opinion is that common articles found on the internet are not complete in the understanding of this complex organ system. There are many layers that are going on.
I continued to do well, even noting improvement in mood and stress which makes perfect scientific sense in that inflammatory cytokines are not being expressed. e.g. they produce when the gut lining is compromised.
I noticed great help years ago (before the butyrate experiment) when I began using chicken or beef stock mixed with several anti-inflammatory polyphenols (turmeric, Ceylon cinnamon, ashwagandha etc.).
My anxiety/panic and reactive stress improved greatly, and I took collagen peptides every few days but always took the stock/polyphenol mix.
Improvement stuttered with the butyrate etc. experiment which I crossed back to a bacterial assault in my gut. As a side note, if the gut is already compromised, then it does become more susceptible to other infections. I slowed down the butyrate experiment temporarily to address the underlying infection.
Infections cause most of the underlying problems in the Tight Junction Proteins (the thing that butyrate targets).
All of my major issues started with a gut infection, and I spent a great amount of time to identify and treat the underlying infection. This includes multiple testing, numerous applications of antibiotic (natural and pharma), multiple adjustments in diet, supplements, gut environment etc. Really too many things to list here :>)
I do have substantial time in pathogenic organisms research, particularly in resistant organisms which is another study altogether. Unfortunately, there is sparse information on these strategies unless you dive into PubMed research articles which I have done hundreds of times.
I am changing up some natural antibiotic strategies at the moment (adding and subtracting some things) and will hit the infections a little more diligently. And will continue on the butyrate et al supplements because I think there is value to that approach, at this time, I feel that addressing the underlying infection is what I need.
(As I continue to dive deeper into the connections between the gut and CFS/ME, I believe there is a wealth of information that is being proven in medical research and not necessarily disseminated to the masses. Though this is not to say that all CFS starts in the gut as there can be other pathologies, but I feel the gut environment is paramount and should be looked at in more depth by the practicing medical community.)
- Butyrate helped to reduced inflammation but was not a cure.
- There are other nutrients that can also support the same as butyrate.
- I used Tesseract brand which I felt was better than others.
- In my case, a stubborn infection is to blame for the problems.
I want to close out this discussion (thread) with some conclusions I have found. Please note that any experiment is a personal experience meaning my experience may be different than yours.
I did find butyrate to be somewhat helpful and at the same time, I found other substances helpful as well.
\
1. Glycine (particularly as bone stock (beef preferably)
2. Collagen peptides (same amino acid profile as the gut lining)
3. Creatine
4. beta Alanine
5. Carnitine
As I have continued on my education on the gut environment, I continually learn more about it. My opinion is that common articles found on the internet are not complete in the understanding of this complex organ system. There are many layers that are going on.
I continued to do well, even noting improvement in mood and stress which makes perfect scientific sense in that inflammatory cytokines are not being expressed. e.g. they produce when the gut lining is compromised.
I noticed great help years ago (before the butyrate experiment) when I began using chicken or beef stock mixed with several anti-inflammatory polyphenols (turmeric, Ceylon cinnamon, ashwagandha etc.).
My anxiety/panic and reactive stress improved greatly, and I took collagen peptides every few days but always took the stock/polyphenol mix.
Improvement stuttered with the butyrate etc. experiment which I crossed back to a bacterial assault in my gut. As a side note, if the gut is already compromised, then it does become more susceptible to other infections. I slowed down the butyrate experiment temporarily to address the underlying infection.
Infections cause most of the underlying problems in the Tight Junction Proteins (the thing that butyrate targets).
All of my major issues started with a gut infection, and I spent a great amount of time to identify and treat the underlying infection. This includes multiple testing, numerous applications of antibiotic (natural and pharma), multiple adjustments in diet, supplements, gut environment etc. Really too many things to list here :>)
I do have substantial time in pathogenic organisms research, particularly in resistant organisms which is another study altogether. Unfortunately, there is sparse information on these strategies unless you dive into PubMed research articles which I have done hundreds of times.
I am changing up some natural antibiotic strategies at the moment (adding and subtracting some things) and will hit the infections a little more diligently. And will continue on the butyrate et al supplements because I think there is value to that approach, at this time, I feel that addressing the underlying infection is what I need.
(As I continue to dive deeper into the connections between the gut and CFS/ME, I believe there is a wealth of information that is being proven in medical research and not necessarily disseminated to the masses. Though this is not to say that all CFS starts in the gut as there can be other pathologies, but I feel the gut environment is paramount and should be looked at in more depth by the practicing medical community.)
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Yes, but as sublingual in that oral delivery does NOT work. Lozenges by Source Naturals have been very helpful. GABA antagonizes high glutamate which causes the anxiety, glutamate accumulates from high immune stress and/or psychological stress.
No, I never tried SP. I did take a look in PubMed to see if there was a study on SP and tight junction proteins, I did not see anything. There was a study on SP and spinal cord injury, something about it providing barrier integrity. Although there is not a published study does not indicate whether it works or not. Thanks for asking the question.
Thank you for looking into it. I had a muscle biopsy done previously which showed mitochondrial abnormalities and had genetic testing done which was normal. So I tried to copy the NIH study and used sodium butyrate and TUDCA for one month with no change in symptoms. So I wasn't sure if I used the ingredient they are supposedly using (sodium phenylbutyrate) that I might have different results. I would be able to access it on Mark Cubans website but the cost is $2000 for a month trial which seems like a really big investment.
@BNQG2RDU For muscles, you can try a variety of different amino acids including creatine. I have been using beta Alanine along with creatine with noticeable results. BCAA (branched chain amino acids), I tried those along with glutamine as well, but results were minimal. Creatine with beta-Alanine seem to work better.
Some b vitamins help in the metabolism of aminos as do other nutrients, I am thinking magnesium, selenium etc.
Glycine has always helped me, but I found the supplemental form took some time to adjust, whereas just using bone stock was much better. Bone stock has glycine but also a few other aminos. I am now using beef stock vs. chicken stock as it does have more beneficial peptides in it. I mix a polyphenol blend in warmed bone stock. The polyphenol mix uses turmeric, Ceylon cinnamon and other spices, works well for the gut as well.
Some b vitamins help in the metabolism of aminos as do other nutrients, I am thinking magnesium, selenium etc.
Glycine has always helped me, but I found the supplemental form took some time to adjust, whereas just using bone stock was much better. Bone stock has glycine but also a few other aminos. I am now using beef stock vs. chicken stock as it does have more beneficial peptides in it. I mix a polyphenol blend in warmed bone stock. The polyphenol mix uses turmeric, Ceylon cinnamon and other spices, works well for the gut as well.
Thank you for the suggestions. I will look into some of your thoughts. I have been taking creatine and l-carnitine. I never tried glycine so that is something to add. I take magnesium glycinate but it’s a small dose so I doubt it makes a change. I don’t think I see any change in my muscle weakness so far with my supplements unfortunately.
Glycine was always the odd one out, as mentioned, I had good success with it as bone stock but when I switched to free form glycine, initially, it caused some problems. @Mary reported some issues with it as a supplemental form and started slowly then built up, my experience with it was similar to hers.
Glycine is said to help with neurological and sleep but also participates in production of glutathione and does target a liver pathway. Something worth knowing is that amino acids tend to metabolize within a short period of time (2-3 days) which for me means I don't waste time trying to decipher whether it is working.
B vitamins help in the conversion of aminos and antioxidants will protect the cells from degradation. You could try some extra B6 and/or B2 for a short time to see if there is some help. Make sure you take the full spectrum of other b vitamins to prevent an imbalance.
triffid113
Day of the Square Peg
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What about another SCFa - acetate (such as found in apple cider vinegar or kombucha? That is my go-to for a gut issue… which I experience as general malaise and brain fog, but also a taste in my mouth like my stomach contents aren’t being digested… so a thickness and a taste like I haven’t brushed my teeth despite that I have. I feel SO much better after drinking a bottle of kombucha.
@triffid113 That is a good point! - I have seen spotty results with ACV*, Kombucha not so much but everyone is different - I am pretty sure that the acetic acid (found in ACV) is food for some of the species of beneficial bacteria, I am not sure which ones at the moment.
Going to the store today to buy some Bragg's
*Resistant starch is another that helped for a bit then fell off.
Going to the store today to buy some Bragg's
*Resistant starch is another that helped for a bit then fell off.
It depends on where in your digestive tract you need more or less of a specific SCFA. Consuming some vinegar or butter will get acetate or butyrate to the start of the tract, but how far down does it get before being absorbed or consumed? I recall that pectin produces mostly acetate. I didn't find a fibre that produces mostly butyrate or propionate.
@Wishful -thanks for the contribution. I found this article helpful:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar... acids (SCFA) are the primary end-products of
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar... acids (SCFA) are the primary end-products of
A snippet from this article talks about resistant starch and its ability to form butyrate - not sure where you find ruminococcus bromii or get it to grow.
Fermentation of resistant starch is thought to contribute significantly to butyrate production in the colon and is dominated by Ruminococcus bromii, such that absence of the organism significantly reduces resistant starch fermentation.15
Fermentation of resistant starch is thought to contribute significantly to butyrate production in the colon and is dominated by Ruminococcus bromii, such that absence of the organism significantly reduces resistant starch fermentation.15
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- México
I remember reading some paper that found very low butyrate producing bacteria on ME/CFS and Long COVID patients, I think they actually were entirely missing.
This would explain the common finding of Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency (EPI) in Long COVID patients? Or it's an entire different issue?
I am vaccine injured and haven't tested my elastate levels, but since this started, my stools are yellow and have undigested food, there is also an oily substance in the water which aligns with EPI.
Something is not right with my digestion and it won't surprise me I now have EPI.
This would explain the common finding of Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency (EPI) in Long COVID patients? Or it's an entire different issue?
I am vaccine injured and haven't tested my elastate levels, but since this started, my stools are yellow and have undigested food, there is also an oily substance in the water which aligns with EPI.
Something is not right with my digestion and it won't surprise me I now have EPI.
@Angel Bryan - Quite possible that there is a connection, I am thinking at the moment that it is an indirect connection. I am jotting down some things that might be helpful.
1/ The butyrate producers obviously produce butyrate and other short chain fatty acids. These molecules repair tissue in the gut lining but they are also involved in metabolic processes. For instance, blood sugar control and energy production.
2/ I have read hundreds of articles that have been published and the recent findings indicate that the gastrointestinal environment is a major player in immune factors. You might want to read Dr. Sabine Hazan's material (she is on Twitter and has a website). She published a number of studies C19 and the gastrointestinal environment. They found low levels of certain probiotics (particularly bifidobacterium) in C19. Duke University published similar findings on C19 in that there have been shifts in the bacteria levels.
3/ Butyrate producers have a hard time populating when the immune system is hard at work, so it can be a Catch 22.
4/ I find it important to address these issues with a number of approaches, that is supporting a number of systems.
1/ The butyrate producers obviously produce butyrate and other short chain fatty acids. These molecules repair tissue in the gut lining but they are also involved in metabolic processes. For instance, blood sugar control and energy production.
2/ I have read hundreds of articles that have been published and the recent findings indicate that the gastrointestinal environment is a major player in immune factors. You might want to read Dr. Sabine Hazan's material (she is on Twitter and has a website). She published a number of studies C19 and the gastrointestinal environment. They found low levels of certain probiotics (particularly bifidobacterium) in C19. Duke University published similar findings on C19 in that there have been shifts in the bacteria levels.
3/ Butyrate producers have a hard time populating when the immune system is hard at work, so it can be a Catch 22.
4/ I find it important to address these issues with a number of approaches, that is supporting a number of systems.
@Angel Bryan Have you tried any pancreatic enzymes, or another are pancreatic glandular? Glandulars are not well known so much in the US but popular in German clinics. I have used a number of them including thymus, adrenal. I used this product.
I worked with someone who was vax injured, and he is near normal - happy to share some of the details if you like.
I worked with someone who was vax injured, and he is near normal - happy to share some of the details if you like.
- Messages
- 17
- Location
- México
I tried Creon which is used for EPI but didn't notice much difference.
Yes, please. I would like to know about the vax injured patient. Which were his symptoms? Are they similar to those of classic MECFS? Which were your findings and what was the treatment?
Much appreciated.