Microbiome - Butyrate - Inflammation

[LINE]

@Garz Thanks for sharing!

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Alternatives are to eat a lot of prausnitzii foods like black eyed beans, butter beans, navy beans and kiwi fruit. That will increase your butyrate which will also heal your tight junctions. It's unclear if diet is enough tho if your repeatedly suffering from an intestinal wall breakdown. That is repair, heal, infected, breakdown in repeated cycles with viral reactivation for each

this supplement I found with ellagic acid is doing very similar things.

It seems to be actually fixing my digestion. It seems to have calmed SIBO, also.


I got some of that Golden KIWI and noticed nothing.

But my projects of eating every well cooked black beans, frequently, is also I think providing me a better dose of butyrate.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

are the TJ also deficient in the brain

brain leaking too, in my opinion.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Gut runs out of energy, too. I think the junctions, require some energy to defend them.

I notice my heart races, sitting on the toilet.

I was a mess at age one. Severe food allergies despite breast feeding. And I cannot ask my Mom WHY am I such a mess. I didn't ask the right questions.

I had all kinds of what seems now like IBS issues, only I was 6, 7, 8 years old. I recall so many bouts of maybe that was food poisoning? But now its 65 years later, so who knows?

 

[Garz]

it often takes a few weeks for ones system to adapt to making ketones and burning them for fuel

we all have the ability - for instance if we fell down a hole in the desert - that is exactly what would happen - but its apparatus that's not used in people who get the majority of their energy from carbs for most of their life - so it can take a while to re-adjust - and people often report feeling rough/worse in that time

headaches, fatigue, digestive issues, cravings - and "keto flu" are all common effects in the first few weeks

the microbiome also needs to adjust - which also takes a couple or three weeks after a major diet change acc to studies

then there are some key nutrients that are necessary for efficient fat metabolism
l-Carnitine is a key transporter of energy into the mitochondria
B vitamins and some micronutrients are also needed - like magnesium, zinc etc

ketogenic eating also seems to require more electrolytes - sodium and potassium
not sure why - but its a thing - cramps can become common otherwise.,

I would say it takes about a month to figure out how to adapt to eating that way, what to buy, what to eat, get the ratios about right(most people eat too much meat / protein and not enough fat or fibre initially) then allow time for your body to adjust and then a while to see if its helps.

all the best with your experiments !

 

[LINE]

As @Garz mentioned, there are necessary co-factors for fat metabolism such as the carnitine and b vitamins etc. In my case, this does not seem to be doing the trick which leads me to believe that the initial phase of fat digestion is the problem.

Fats enter the small intestine following the stomach acids. The fats are digested primarily by bile acids and a pancreatic enzyme called lipase. Without adequate secretion of these, fats do not get broken down. The other thing that was mentioned is the role of pH, the pH needs to be more alkaline. The stomach is quite acidic so this needs to be neutralized.

I am going to focus on better digestion which includes some of the bile acids (Tudca*, Milk Thistle combinations) and I ordered lipase by itself (I tried sodium bicarbonate in the past with some success). That is, sodium bicarbonate is a pH buffer.

*Link for tudca information
https://bodybio.com/blogs/blog/what-is-tudca

 

[LINE]

this supplement I found with ellagic acid is doing very similar things.

It seems to be actually fixing my digestion. It seems to have calmed SIBO, also.


I got some of that Golden KIWI and noticed nothing.

But my projects of eating every well cooked black beans, frequently, is also I think providing me a better dose of butyrate.

Black beans are rich in diverse nutrients but also in Resistant Starch. RS is known to proliferate healthy bacteria as is ellagic acid.

 

[LINE]

Of interest, Tudca is reported to help in the tight junction proteins

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5773980/

"TUDCA improved intestinal barrier function by increasing levels of tight junction molecules and the solid chemical barrier. The components involved in ileum lipid transport were also reduced by TUDCA administration in HFD‐fed mice. Finally, the TUDCA‐treated mice showed a different gut microbiota composition compared with that in HFD‐fed mice but similar to that in normal chow diet‐fed mice."

Conclusions and Implications​

TUDCA attenuates the progression of HFD‐induced NAFLD* in mice by ameliorating gut inflammation, improving intestinal barrier function, decreasing intestinal fat transport and modulating intestinal microbiota composition.

HFD - High Fat Diet
NAFLD - Non alcoholic fatty liver disease

 

[Garz]

i am a bit wary of mice experiments on HFD etc as there seems to be no differentiation between the type of fats used

eg what kind of fat is in the "High Fat mouse chow"? - by default i think this will likely be industrial seed oils - based on an inherent assumption that all fat is fat - ie all fats are the same

but we already know industrially produced seed oils are inflammatory in the gut -
and saturated fat from healthy sources is not - and some fats like omega 3 are strongly anti-inflammatory.

conversely, health conscious humans will likely specifically avoid these types of fat.

leading to the question - how relevant are these experiments to humans?

still, i guess you could look at it as - they put something inflammatory in the diets of the mice - and tudca or whatever seemed to help mitigate the inflammatory effect to some degree - which seems valid enough

 

[almost]

I was a mess at age one. Severe food allergies despite breast feeding. And I cannot ask my Mom WHY am I such a mess. I didn't ask the right questions.

I had all kinds of what seems now like IBS issues, only I was 6, 7, 8 years old. I recall so many bouts of maybe that was food poisoning? But now its 65 years later, so who knows?

So was I. I was told that when I was a toddler, I could eat two and only two foods for a while: bananas and rice cereal. Anything else produced projectile type vomiting, much to the surprise of church child care helpers (they were warned, I guess). I also have the same problem of not having the ability to ask mom WHY. She got me through it, but what did she learn? While I never knew any of this until much later, I now think that history is very relevant to me today. I think its signature is still there.

@LINE, thank you for this thread. I have also been investigating my lipid metabolism, as my Nutreval showed problems with it, especially very long chain fatty acids. I'm having my gall bladder function checked as well as pancreatic enzymes to see if there is trouble there, as I have family history. Also glycine, which I was lower in urine, is necessary for fatty acid metabolism:

It’s needed to manufacture bile, nucleic acids, creatine phosphate and porphyrins to be used to break down nutrients from your diet. For example, it helps break down fats by aiding with the production of bile acids and helps transport glycogen to cells to be used for energy in the form of ATP.

https://www.livingwithmthfr.org/genetic-education/amino-acids/glycine-gly-or-g

Looking forward to what comes of this.

 

[Garz]

As @Garz mentioned, there are necessary co-factors for fat metabolism such as the carnitine and b vitamins etc. In my case, this does not seem to be doing the trick which leads me to believe that the initial phase of fat digestion is the problem.

also gall bladder function is involved in fat digestion

to explain a little further - the gall bladder is a muscular little sack with a single entry/exit - that slowly fills with bile from the slow and continuous flow from the liver -
then when you have a fatty meal ( anything more than 5-10g of fat ) there is a special sensory gland positioned in the small intestine just below the opening of the stomach - and this senses the fat content of your meal and its this that triggers the gall bladder to contract and inject bile into the chime to help us absorb fat from our food.

insufficient bile flow from the gall bladder can cause poor fat absorption due to lack of bile acids used i think to emulsify the fats.

a lot of people with chronic inflammatory diseases have issues with the gall bladder
toxins, free radicals etc not processed properly by the liver, if the liver is overloaded or just not doing a good job, sit in there and cause damage

you can have the gall bladder function tested - in terms of how much bile it ejects when you have a fatty meal

you can also buy bile acid supplements -
its possible a trial with these - if it helped at all - may give some indication of a possible lack in endogenous bile acids - but i dont know if that can be relied upon

 

[Rufous McKinney]

we already know industrially produced seed oils are inflammatory in the gut -

chances are very good that those seed oils may have been produced using GMO or glyphosate. The latter is pretty much known to cause Non Hodgkins (which I have, and I didn't eat seed oils hardly ever).

I sometimes think those are triggers we are missing. My cook will suddenly make my eggs using Canola oil. I don't eat Canola Oil.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Anything else produced projectile type vomiting,

I was covered in rashes. Drank goats milk until I was around 9. Hated it. Tasted awful.

Shots early on, not sure when that stopped.

I recall asking both my parents, WHY I was put on phenobarbital when I was around 7. Neither of my parents had an answer for that.

I was considered to have "pre-ulcers" in high school. Excessive acid in my stomach, double over in pain. Chewing on antacids.

My mom experienced alot of "colitis". That what we called, episodes of loose stools, etc. My mom had no issues with lack of energy,

 

[LINE]

So was I. I was told that when I was a toddler, I could eat two and only two foods for a while: bananas and rice cereal. Anything else produced projectile type vomiting, much to the surprise of church child care helpers (they were warned, I guess). I also have the same problem of not having the ability to ask mom WHY. She got me through it, but what did she learn? While I never knew any of this until much later, I now think that history is very relevant to me today. I think its signature is still there.

@LINE, thank you for this thread. I have also been investigating my lipid metabolism, as my Nutreval showed problems with it, especially very long chain fatty acids. I'm having my gall bladder function checked as well as pancreatic enzymes to see if there is trouble there, as I have family history. Also glycine, which I was lower in urine, is necessary for fatty acid metabolism:

https://www.livingwithmthfr.org/genetic-education/amino-acids/glycine-gly-or-g

Looking forward to what comes of this.

You are welcome, I will keep my experiments posted.

Also glycine, which I was lower in urine, is necessary for fatty acid metabolism:

It’s needed to manufacture bile, nucleic acids, creatine phosphate and porphyrins to be used to break down nutrients from your diet. For example, it helps break down fats by aiding with the production of bile acids and helps transport glycogen to cells to be used for energy in the form of ATP.

• Glycine is involved in the body's production of DNA, phospholipids, and collagen, and in the release of energy.

Interesting about glycine, I have done well with bone broth which is rich in glycine but not so well with supplemental glycine. It is important for phospholipids (phospholipids being the necessary molecule to heal the gut lining (tight junctions)).

 

[LINE]

Recap to date:

The gut lining plays an integral role in maintaining the environment. This would include creating a more favorable microbiome and preventing a cascade of inflammatory factors. A healthier microbiome means a healthier body. First is the production of butyrate etc. and second is a reduction of inflammatory cytokines.

Inflammatory cytokines are very bad, these would be the root of inflammation, these attack other cells besides the intestinal cells.

Certain fats (phospholipids) are the main factor in rebuilding the gut lining.

For those fats to get there, three factors must be present:

1. The right types of fats (phospholipids found in sunflower lecithin and Krill oil and other types of healthy fats.

2. The fats must be digested correctly which happens in the small intestine. There are 3 known factors, the a. first is bile production which is released from the gallbladder/liver.
b. second is a fat degrading enzyme known as lipase which is secreted from the pancreas.
c. lastly, the pH balance must be more alkaline.

3. Transportation of the fats to the tissue requires a number of co-factors such as carnitine, b vitamins, amino acids and minerals such as zinc.

 

[LINE]

There is prevailing thought that pathogens become lodged in the gut lining, hence the start of the inflammatory process. With the start of the inflammation, the gut lining becomes damaged due to the immune response. The immune response continually breaks down the lining causing a perpetual inflammatory state.

With this perpetual inflammatory state, the microbiome changes. The microbiome is nothing more than a community of diverse organisms. There are good organisms and there are bad ones. They fight against each other; it is like a war. When the bad guys are winning, we feel sick.

One of the early concepts was to determine the nature of the pathogen that got lodged in there. There are a wide range of possibilities:

1. Viral
2. Bacteria
3. Yeast/Fungal
4. Parasites (parasites come in a few classes which include worms, flukes and protozoa species). As a side note, protozoa are microscopic and share some similarities with bacteria.

Some feel that addressing the underlying pathogen will restore the gut, I spent gobs of time to address this. My feeling is that if the lining of the gut is addressed, then it would be a better time to address the underlying infection. I speak this from experience (my list of attempted treatments is kind of crazy.

 

[LINE]

Something worth mentioning: the inflammatory cytokines (as a result of faulty tight junction proteins), create a hostile environment for the liver since the liver must process the toxic byproducts. This could impact the bile production leading to faulty fatty acid processing thus perpetuating the vicious cycle.

Toxins generated by the inflammatory cytokines also impact the tight junctions negatively, the same as ongoing immune reactions. That is why I have found "binders" to work well, these pick up the toxins and sweep them out thus preserving the tight junctions from degrading further. An example of a binder would be charcoal, chlorella or certain clays.

 

[Garz]

another area that may be of interest to you is the ability of hypoxia - even what we may think of as relatively mild hypoxia - like from sleep apnoea - to cause hypoxia and reperfusion injury and inflammation in the fine blood vessels that supply the tiny villi that line the gut - these Villi are where the single cell thick membrane and tight junctions of the gut live - and this injury leads to hyperpermeability in the gut lining

so while sleep apnoea demonstrates the mechanism - and may be a co-morbidity of some with CFS - other possible causes of similar injury to the gut lining that may be more relevant to a larger proportion of ME/CFS sufferers are are things like

-micro clots - tiny clots but still much larger than the blood vessels in the villi and able to block them - causing injury - these have been found in long-covid patients - and other post infectious sequalae - with very similar symptoms and mechanisms as we suspect are at work in CFS

-infectious agents- especially those that infect red blood cells or endothelial cells ( the cells that our blood vessels are made of ) - things like bartonella ( the cause of my CFS like illness ), borrelia, babesia, mycoplasma, maybe chlamydia - several viruses including Sars-COV2 - and probably several others

- disturbed immune processes or disturbed clotting processes - causing problems with the normal clotting behaviour, platelet activation, platelet aggregation, and disproportionately affecting the smallest blood vessels - like the capillaries in our gut lining - causing essentially the same symptoms as above

i suspect this mechanism exists in complex networks with the other mechanisms discussed above, in each patient, with multiple feedback loop possibilities that can conspire to keep a person sick when they overwhelm the hosts adaptive abilities.

and which make it very hard indeed to spot what was the single initial cause

maybe there was no single initial root cause - just the straw that broke the camels back

 

[Garz]

here is a section through the villi in the surface of the small intestine - where you can see the single cell thick gut membrane layer - and the incredibly fine capillaries inside each

its easy to see how sensitive to clotting or other microvascular injury these tissues are - and how that would lead to cell death in the single layer - and leaky gut ( hyperpermeable gut membrane).

 

[LINE]

@Garz Really good material you are posting, it makes sense. Definitely something else to think about.