Microbiome - Butyrate - Inflammation

[Garz]

@Garz Really good material you are posting, it makes sense. Definitely something else to think about.

thank you for the kind words - i have mainly just been digging into all of this stuff for some years now in an attempt to sort out my own issues - but i am keen to pass on anything that might be useful to others who find themselves in a similar boat.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I have a decent grasp of some of the other concepts if anyone has questions.

all my gut progress just tanked: in a two week crash, my immune system is jacked up for some reason and I had a pretty intense: what I call a COLITUS attack.

Long ago: that is what I called Gut reaction in which everything has to leave. Its what my Mother called it.

As in: it's a total Everything Must go Sale. So sleep was disrupted, cramps, and alot of what is in chinese, WIND.

I can feel the pit of my stomach is now off again. vagus nerve and SIBO which I had backed off, returned.

I'm needing to do an even bigger rest and START OVER on my GUT rebuild.

No toast with breakfast today.

- AWKWARD issues with diet: I have a woman who cooks, and she makes food for us, and food for employees like the nurses. The nurses are to eat like beans, and tortillas and maybe some soup.

We are here eating butter, and expensive things sometimes imported.

so there is Canola oil on the shelf and I do NOT WANT to be eating ANY of that but I'm embarrassed to just flat out tell my Cook that.

It's part of an awkward cultural thing. I don' t like. But I cannot afford to buy super expensive food for all these people, either.

I guess I need to focus on my dietary sensitivities. (and not so much say: I cannot eat canola oil) ,

(Frankly, my husband should not be consuming it either)

 

[LINE]

@Rufous McKinney
The microbiome is a sensitive environment that can be thrown off with a few missteps. The immune system becomes very sensitive when we are in dysbiosis - then a bomb goes off in the gut which is really just inflammatory cytokines which do a good amount of damage. It can take some time to recover from that.

I know what foods will throw off the gut after paying attention to this for many years. The idea is that if the microbiome environment is reasonable, then it should demonstrate that in the entire body.

 

[LINE]

I read some great material from this researcher which included a different perspective than normal microbiome thoughts.

One of those ideas that she reported on is a metabolic pathway called PPAR which has several far reaching influences on metabolism. One version of PPAR influences the gut. She mentions drugs and some herbal complexes that can influence the PPAR pathway. One is a Traditional Chinese Medicine complex called Fu Fang Dan Shen which I will be trying. She also lists other natural compounds and lifestyle considerations that can influence PPAR. These are listed on the link above.

Here is a research article describing its action:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9696208/-

 

[LINE]

I am trying to keep posting in regard to my trials and errors. Hopefully, someone can gain some help.

1/ I am trying a new form of tributyrin (this is Tesseract) this brand claims to have a superior delivery system. There are some other products that look interesting due to their delivery system. I tried regular butyrate several times, and tributyrin from CoreBiome and Dr. Gundry. I did not receive results but that could be on my end (duration).

2/ Krill oil - contains phospholipids which target the cell membranes (help to heal)

3/ Raised intake of digestive enzymes and added TUDCA (both of these intended to aid digestion)

3/ Avoidance of inflammatory foods (which has been the case for a solid 6 months)

4/ Vitamin A

Let me know if anyone finds this helpful.

 

[Violeta]

Preliminary evidence of mitochondrial dysfunction associated with post-infective fatigue after acute infection with Epstein Barr Virus​

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1471-2334-6-15

From 2006

The association between EBV-induced chronic fatigue syndrome with mitochondrial dysfunction was suggested many years ago."

"Those who developed post-infective fatigue had gene expression profiles indicative of an altered host response during acute mononucleosis compared to those who recovered uneventfully. Several genes including ISG20 (interferon stimulated gene), DNAJB2 (DnaJ [Hsp40] homolog and CD99), CDK8 (cyclin-dependent kinase 8), E2F2 (E2F transcription factor 2), CDK8 (cyclin-dependent kinase 8), and ACTN2 (actinin, alpha 2), known to be regulated during EBV infection, were differentially expressed in post-infective fatigue cases. Several of the differentially expressed genes affect mitochondrial functions including fatty acid metabolism and the cell cycle."

I didn't know this! When I went to this article from a different study, I was not expecting to find this.

I have been trying kefir for it's known beneficial effects in other areas, but I think it may help in the area of fatty acid metabolism, too.

I started with commercial goat milk kefir about 2 weeks ago, started making traditional kefir last week. After 2 days of eating traditional I had a very different day yesterday. Much more productive, much less of the being in a straight jacket feeling.

Pantothenic acid has proven helpful to me, too.

Very interesting thread, @LINE!

PS: Awake in the middle of the night because of my dog, so this post may be lacking.

 

[LINE]

@Violeta Good to hear and thanks for posting. Dr. Sabine Hazan has been posting on the role of bifidobacterium on Twitter/X mainly on its ability to enhance immunity. Bifido tends to populate the large intestine while lacto species tend to populate the small intestine, not that this is of utmost importance. She has shown that Covid patients (long covid) tend to be low in bifido species.

She indicates that vitamin C can help in keeping these (bifido) adequate. Kefir is rich in bifido if not mistaken.

As some side notes, more and more information is being released on the role of the gut microbiota in a number of issues such as the neurological, immune and overall health as you know. The microbiota environment is a very complex system with a number of factors that can intertwine.

 

[Garz]

As some side notes, more and more information is being released on the role of the gut microbiota in a number of issues such as the neurological, immune and overall health as you know. The microbiota environment is a very complex system with a number of factors that can intertwine.

i think this is true - but what i see a great deal of in a lot of this work - possibly because sequencing and trying to understand the microbiome is very much In-Vogue right now - is is the inherent assumption that the direction of the arrow of causation is from microbiome to host symptoms/ outcomes.

however - what is very rarely considered is that the direction of causation arrow could often be the other way round - ie - something in the hosts internal environment changes the microbiome
here i am talking about things like inflammation, permeability of the gut membrane, immune system status, perfusion of the gut lining - or lack of it, mucous production in the gut lining or lack of it etc

these changes in the host may well be driving changes in the microbiota - for instance an inflamed gut membrane will suit different bacterial colonies than a healthy one - and thus the microbiota changes may be a symptom not a root cause

this view is clearly just as well supported by the facts - but is not often expressed - i think because it hints at another whole layer of factors we do not yet under stand - vs the simple view that says - these 10 genus of bacteria are good and you need more of them - and these 10 are bad and you want less of them - which is the more common paradigm.

as an example - its well documented the people had blooms of one of two species of gut bacteria that threw their normal microbial balance out of whack when they were infected with SARS-COV2. we also know that SARS-COV2 infects the cells that lines the gut.
and
you can often give a person with very low microbiota diversity a bunch of probiotics - and see pretty much zero change in the levels of those species over time - that doesn't make sense if its all about the microbiota and not the environment -

whereas we all know - if you want certain crops to grow and thrive - you first need a suitable environment.

 

[LINE]

@Garz Very valid points, thanks for sharing. After reading a bazillion articles, the only thing I can say for sure is that little is known Of course, this sounds negative, but I think the real hope is in flexible thinking and incessant trial and error. The latter has provided me progress.

here i am talking about things like inflammation, permeability of the gut membrane, immune system status, perfusion of the gut lining - or lack of it, mucous production in the gut lining or lack of it etc

I am continuing the experiment of barrier integrity, it might be a little premature, but I do feel that this may be providing some results. I am focusing on a particular form of butyrate but also collagen peptides and a few other things that I have tried in the past. One such positive experience is feelings of neurological normalcy which would support the gut/brain axis idea.

 

[Violeta]

@Garz Very valid points, thanks for sharing. After reading a bazillion articles, the only thing I can say for sure is that little is known Of course, this sounds negative, but I think the real hope is in flexible thinking and incessant trial and error. The latter has provided me progress.

here i am talking about things like inflammation, permeability of the gut membrane, immune system status, perfusion of the gut lining - or lack of it, mucous production in the gut lining or lack of it etc

I am continuing the experiment of barrier integrity, it might be a little premature, but I do feel that this may be providing some results. I am focusing on a particular form of butyrate but also collagen peptides and a few other things that I have tried in the past. One such positive experience is feelings of neurological normalcy which would support the gut/brain axis idea.

I just went to the link you provided above that talks about butyrate and the Chinese herbs. Very interesting.

In this study, they found increased butyrate in the brain. I didn't know there was butyrate in the brain.

Milk kefir alters fecal microbiota impacting gut and brain health in mice​

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37389589/

"Moreover, kefir increased catalase and superoxide dismutase (colon), and SCFAs in feces (butyrate), and in the brain (butyrate and propionate)."

 

[Wishful]

possibly because sequencing and trying to understand the microbiome is very much In-Vogue right now

I think it's a tempting research topic because it offers a quick fix solution: the solution to a disease is as simple as finding the right strain. The perspective that the microbiome is part of a complex interconnected system that doesn't have simple solutions is unattractive to researchers ... and research investors.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I read some great material from this researcher which included a different perspective than normal microbiome thoughts.

super cool info: thank you for posting this....

the compounded formula from CTM is of interest to me, as I have used that protocol intermittently for the last decade. But not the product in question, as I use custom herbs.

What I"d give to talk to a gut expert who actually knows something.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Are we missing a possible key aspect of digestion? ENERGY?

1) I think tight junctions likely has some energy component, mitochrondrial probably: so we run out of energy, our gut leaks more.

I'll try to wade through this tome of info. Sigh

 

[Rufous McKinney]

perfusion of the gut lining - or lack of it, mucous production in the gut lining or lack of it etc

something that has a favorable effect on mucous production, and moisture in the body-

proteolytic enzymes like nattokinase.
I notice very specific shifts in mucous and membranes etc. when I take one. I don't take them daily, maybe once a week.

here i am talking about things like inflammation, permeability of the gut membrane, immune system status, perfusion of the gut lining - or lack of it, mucous production in the gut lining or lack of it etc

Another important factor in what is going on in our guts, I think, is the weakness of our muscles and connective tissue and everything holding all that together.

I periodically have the BAD GUT Day. Something worse than normal. And I can feel this weakness very profoundly. And I"m getting Tachycardia sitting on the toilet.

I'm really careful about not over eating because that can just make the whole anatomy BOG DOWN.

 

[Garz]

​

Mitochondria of intestinal epithelial cells in depression: Are they at a crossroads of gut-brain communication?​

Highlights​

• Mitochondrial dysfunction of intestinal epithelial cells leads to gut microbiota dysbiosis.

• Mitochondria of intestinal epithelial cells may be a newly-found important factor in the pathogenesis of depression.

• Protection of the mitochondrial function of intestinal epithelial cells serves as a potential new strategy for treating depression.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976342300372X

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Highlights

That makes sense to me.

So next, I figure our Blood Brain Barrier has some version of similar problems...

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Mitochondria of intestinal epithelial cells in depression: Are they at a crossroads of gut-brain communication?

wow thats a major paper.......I need to wade thru that somehow!~


I used to SWEAR by aloe vera juice. I should reconsider getting that back into the mix.

Growing up, I had "colitis attacks" as that is what my mother called them. Mostly I learned how to avoid triggering those, later on.

So I sort of forgot about aloe vera

 

[LINE]

Something that might be helpful for some > As @Rufous McKinney stated, lessening food intake may be helpful, my new experiment is eating once per day and never 6 hours before bed. The idea is that too much energy is being used to digest.

 

[Garz]

these is a lot of research on time restricted eating - or intermittent fasting - where your eating window is restricted to 10 or 11 hrs a day - vs the 14 common in developed countries today

this extended down time actually improves beneficial bacteria populations in the gut
allows additional time for the gut to clean itself with its wave like action that moves food and surplus bacterial down through the system
and provides time for repair of the gut membrane

Prof Tim Spector just released a huge study on this - the biggest so far - the BIG-IF study - 100,000 participants - they only reduced their eating window by an hour or so on average - but there were still numerous health benefits - including increased energy and mood - likely mediated via the microbiome and gut membrane permeability effects

 

[Rufous McKinney]

here your eating window is restricted to 10 or 11 hrs a day - vs the 14

I started to notice this timing window in my own digestive cycle...I noticed if I ate something later, and beyond the 10-11 hour window, I'd have more digestive issues.

BTW: my doctor made a comment about an inflammatory cycle. He said something to me about going to bed earlier to get in on an inflammatory repair thing, around 11 pm. I have not investigated that topic. But I am going to bed earlier.