Methylation: From feeling FANTASTIC back to Square One

[ryanbarclay]

Hello there,

It’s my first post here as I’m looking for some help and advice with regards to the methylation protocols.

I’m very new to all of this and am not fully familiar with the science behind the methylation cycle so any help, advice and tips would be greatly appreciated.

I’ve been struggling with chronic fatigue along with depression and paranoia (health paranoia) for many years. Even as a child, I was very nervous and skinny. Every morning I wake up and feel like a zombie no matter how much sleep I get and am so depressed with brain fog and memory problems.

I don’t have any issues with my nerves, no tingling, numbness, pain or anything like that.

About two weeks ago, I purchased Thorne Basic B Complex which includes the B complex in their methylated forms.

Within 3-4 days I had some AMAZING results - honestly life changing results - My depression had lifted, my brain fog was clearing, I actually felt happy and motivated and I felt that I had so much more energy and stamina in my muscles too (physical). I was running up and down the stairs, getting things done, had great motivation - it was honestly life changing. Colours seemed much more vivid, I was really appreciating the real world around me. Food tasted good, I was enjoying eating again. My night vision started to improve. I was really happy. Even my memory improved - I could remember the little things again.

This lead me to trying to figure out why I felt so great - hence my discovery of the methylation cycle.

I read Freddd’s protocol in detail, along with a couple of the others. I started taking Jarrow 5mg sublingual B12 along with the Thorne Activated B Complex. I still felt good, but ever since I increased my B12 dosage (I ended up taking 2x 5mg sublingual daily) I have crashed.

I seem to have gone back to square one - back to being depressed, brain fog, extreme morning lethargy and all of the other symptoms.

Is it possible that I have depleted my folate supply? When taking such high doses of B12, could it be the lack of folate causing the block now? Perhaps I should stop taking everything and go back to just taking the Thorne B Complex again?

I remember that one night last week, I had SO MUCH energy - I felt like a million dollars and so happy then the following morning came the crash.

I take:

5mg Methyl B12 twice daily
Thorne Basic B Complex (which includes L-5-Methyltetrahydrofolate at 400mcg per capsule) twice daily

Can anyone shed any light? What’s blocking the cycle?

 

[minkeygirl]

Might be too much mb12 too fast. You have to start low and go slow maybe @Martial, @PeterPositive or @ahmo can help.

 

[aquariusgirl]

I honestly dunno.. but Amy Yasko told us for years to push B12...then she figured out it was going nowhere without lithium & in fact that B12 was using up our lithium (some of us).....which we were dumping like crazy, so then the advice became fix lithium b4 adding b12 ...

It took me years to figure out my roadblock was zinc!! I feel fabulous ...but I am now looking to rebuild my methylation pathway on top of that.....I suspect heavy metals messed up my zinc.. but I don't know it for sure.

Long story short... u may have a bottleneck somewhere else...

 

[aquariusgirl]

some of your symptoms sound familiar.... check out zinc and copper and pyroluria. I wouldn't fool around with it yourself...& I'm not sure if I believe all zinc deficiency is pyroluria.. maybe it's heavy metals. Either way,. if you have a zinc deficiency and you treat it safely, it might alleviate some of your symptoms.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@ryanbarclay I had a very similar experience... But I ended up hypothyroid after spending too much energy with high doses of B12. So now I am fixing thyroid, and hope someday will feel that fantastic and energetic again.
Be sure to read

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/my-understanding-of-freddds-protocol.1697/

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ks-to-successful-methylation-treatment.29273/

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...w-to-be-safe-on-a-methylation-protocol.26711/

and other documents linked in caledonia's signature.

Cofactors are needed and their dosages are interdependent. I always recommend this site to know what to expect from supplements, it has been helping me a lot:
http://www.acu-cell.com/acn.html

All the Bs also work together and increaseing the intake of one will create deficiencies in other ones. There are several threads about this here.

 

[ahmo]

You don't mention any particular folate deficiency symptoms, which tend to be skin, rashes, sores, acne...But you're taking quite a bit of B12 in relation to folate. I'd try increasing folate, maybe with 200mc a time, every 1-2 days. I found 800mcg or 1mg tabs really useful, they can be easily divided for smaller doses.

There are 2 links in my signature, one to a good Methylation for Dummies, the other for a wonderfully simplified version of Freddd's Protocol. @caledonia has many links for methylation understanding in her signature. A bit of lithium might help...

@Gondwanaland's given you a good few resources. Congratulations on starting your methylation journey!

 

[Tammy]

I would consider going back to what worked for you to start with...........the Thorne B complex and stay with that for awhile to see if you sustain improvement before adding something else.

 

[ryanbarclay]

some of your symptoms sound familiar.... check out zinc and copper and pyroluria. I wouldn't fool around with it yourself...& I'm not sure if I believe all zinc deficiency is pyroluria.. maybe it's heavy metals. Either way,. if you have a zinc deficiency and you treat it safely, it might alleviate some of your symptoms.

Hi aquariusgirl, thank you for your reply.

I've had the full pyroluria screening back at the beginning of 2013.

Zinc: 15.6 (reference range 11.5-20)
B6 Pyridoxine: 1.82 (1.75-2.00 = BORDERLINE)
Kryptopyrroles: 0.05 (reference up to 0.08)

However, it's funny you've mentioned Zinc - because I forgot to say that when I was doing great on the Thorne Basic B Complex I was also taking the Thorne Bio-B12 which includes 15mg of zinc picolinate.

I've just purchased some Zinc Picolinate by Thorne to see if that helps at all!

 

[ryanbarclay]

You don't mention any particular folate deficiency symptoms, which tend to be skin, rashes, sores, acne...But you're taking quite a bit of B12 in relation to folate. I'd try increasing folate, maybe with 200mc a time, every 1-2 days. I found 800mcg or 1mg tabs really useful, they can be easily divided for smaller doses.

There are 2 links in my signature, one to a good Methylation for Dummies, the other for a wonderfully simplified version of Freddd's Protocol. @caledonia has many links for methylation understanding in her signature. A bit of lithium might help...

@Gondwanaland's given you a good few resources. Congratulations on starting your methylation journey!

Hi ahmo, thanks for your reply.

I'll try upping the dosage of folate - but to be honest, I think I'm going to stop the 5mg mB12 and try taking the Thorne Basic B Complex alone again.

No, I have no obvious folate deficiency symptoms - however it has been a relatively short time for physical things to manifest.

 

[ryanbarclay]

@ryanbarclay I had a very similar experience... But I ended up hypothyroid after spending too much energy with high doses of B12. So now I am fixing thyroid, and hope someday will feel that fantastic and energetic again.
Be sure to read

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/my-understanding-of-freddds-protocol.1697/

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ks-to-successful-methylation-treatment.29273/

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...w-to-be-safe-on-a-methylation-protocol.26711/

and other documents linked in caledonia's signature.

Cofactors are needed and their dosages are interdependent. I always recommend this site to know what to expect from supplements, it has been helping me a lot:
http://www.acu-cell.com/acn.html

All the Bs also work together and increaseing the intake of one will create deficiencies in other ones. There are several threads about this here.

Many thanks for the links Gondwanaland - they are most helpful.

I think I went over the top with the mB12. I'm going to start from the beginning again with the Thorne Basic B Complex alone and see how I feel.

 

[ryanbarclay]

I would consider going back to what worked for you to start with...........the Thorne B complex and stay with that for awhile to see if you sustain improvement before adding something else.

That's what I'm thinking

 

[ryanbarclay]

I forgot to mention (as it may be relevant) that I'm a heavy nicotine user. I don't smoke, but I have an unhealthy addition to nicotine patches. Chronic use - several per day. Have been this way ever since I quit smoking 5 years ago. I'm trying to cut down. It perks me up, gives me some faux energy - I suppose I'm self medicating with nicotine.

I'm also taking Olanzapine (Zyprexa) for my health paranoia. It's an atypical antipsychotic medication. Once I feel more stable, I'm going to come off this very slowly.

What I felt for those few days was honestly life changing so I really need to find out what's causing my block.

 

[aquariusgirl]

what do you mean by health paranoia? and what happened with the pyroluria thing? did your doc say you have it? are you being treated for it? I can't figure out if it's real or not...I'm wondering if heavy metals could cause the same thing?

 

[ryanbarclay]

what do you mean by health paranoia? and what happened with the pyroluria thing? did your doc say you have it? are you being treated for it? I can't figure out if it's real or not...I'm wondering if heavy metals could cause the same thing?

By health paranoia I mean that I'm a massive worrier when it comes to my health; thinking that there is something wrong with me all the time - always thinking the worst from any symptoms. It's obsessive. I'm an extreme hypochondriac.

I was negative for pyroluria. From what I know I believe it's a real condition.

 

[Beyond]

Fly Away it sounds like you ended believing the doctor´s bullshit. One doc tried to push me an SSRI and something else for my "helath obsession". My friend, this is what doctors do when you are sick and no one knows why, they take the easy road of blaming it all to an "mental disease". They are too coward to accept their ignorance and lack of update in recent studies, and too proud to even listen to your "hypochondriac theories". I have developed some serious hatred for doctors.

The fact is, if you have distinct, objective symptoms, you are ill, and being obsessed about it is normal because living chronically ill is being the undead and furthermore because no doctor helps/believes you have a physical problem you have to do all the guesswork yourself, set up diagnosis and treatment. For an (ignorant and unempathic) healthy external observer all of that amounts to a mentally ill person, wheter they explicitly express it or indirectly show it saying that they have the same problems you have or simply not taking your issues seriously.

I would only take Olanzapine if it lowers REM. That helps depression and it well proven in studies, as depression causes unrefreshing sleep by increasing both quantity and quality of REM (you also obsess and relive negative experiences at night as a depressive) I tell you because I also have depression but other symptoms like eczema, leaky gut pains, bad excretion tell me I have autoimmunity and moar. Not to mention I am depressed in a large part because of being ill lol

 

[ryanbarclay]

Thanks for the reply @Beyond

Yep, I've given up with the doctors and the NHS in the UK. I was on the SSRI Citalopram (Celexa) for 7 years - I've been free of that for 3 years now. Giving it up was hard, fighting bouts of crying at the most stupid things - but I pushed through.

When it all got really bad (when I was about 14 years old), I had kidney scans, dexamethasone suppression tests (pituitary), so much bloodwork it was insane and also urinalysis and everything came back clear. So they prescribed me Propranolol for my very high blood pressure (at 14 years old). It was when I was 18 that things got really bad and I went to see a psychiatrist who prescribed me the SSRI and antipsychotic.

My GP thinks it's all in my head. The last visit I went to discuss my memory problems. He suggested that it was because I came off of my SSRI. I had liver function, renal and thyroid tests in addition - all came back fine (well, within THEIR reference ranges).

I haven't tested my sleep without Olanzapine. I do have a ZEO headband monitor that provides some great data. Half life of Olanzapine is quite long so I'd have to come off it for a good few days for an accurate test. Thing is, when I try to cut down or come off, my health obsession gets really bad I I literally panic and worry so much that I can't even physically move. I think it's going to have to be a gradual process.

I had the extreme morning lethargy and chronic fatigue before any of the psych medications.

I don't know what the consensus is on this forum regarding Candida infections in the intestine. I know some people don't believe it but generally it's becoming more accepted. Several alternative practitioners have said I have a Candida problem, including Carolyn Dean (famous magnesium doctor). I had a blood test which revealed candida IgG antibodies in my blood (a serious sign of an underlying Candida issue). I've also had liquid ass (the shits) for 5 years now.

I know the toxic byproducts Candida produce can affect the methylation cycle:
http://mthfr.net/methylation-inhibited-by-candidas-toxin/2012/09/08/

Perhaps that's one of my issues?

I just can't figure out why taking the activated Bs turned my life around, but now I'm left back where I started.

 

[ryanbarclay]

I forgot to mention that when I felt good taking the Thorne Basic B Complex and the Bio-B12, I was also waking up in the morning when the sun came in the room - feeling more alive. I wasn't fatigued (well, not compared to how I usually feel). Now it's just all gone

Maybe @Freddd can provide some feedback.

 

[Beyond]

Hey Ryan. First of all buddy if the B-Complex helped get back to it and see if it keeps helping like someone else suggested already. I have taken a couple of active B-complexes and the best one hands down was by Metabolic Maintenance. I took it sublingually for far better absorption, good stuff for mood, energy and verbal ease. Also maybe you DO have real hypochondria, so I am sorry if I just assumed doctors are pushing that to you because as you have experienced yourself they will push that systematically to anyone with a chronic illness that their tests cannot "prove". Either way you also have real physical problems so I would focus in improving those, I am sure not having symptoms would help a lot with any "health obsession" right?

EDIT: Just saw your "liquid ass" comment. Boy, do you have to start reading on "leaky gut" and take action. This is central to autoimmunity and autoimmunity is central to CFS and a lot of chronic "unexplainable" diseases. And yes leaky gut and candida are kind of best friends forever.

 

[aquariusgirl]

Omg you are in the UK. Not a good place to be with this illness. Ryan did u try zinc ? That was a missing piece for me. Methylation didn't work for me....I got excitotoxicity. I had to stop..started zinc slowly adding Bs...& experimenting with BH4.

 

[aquariusgirl]

I took 2 months to add 50 mg of zinc FYI....building up slowly. This may be important 4 some ppl...I think it can cause copper dumping.