Metabolic Trap//Who got worse on l-tryptophan?

Alvin2

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But isnt the problem with the metabolic trap that the tryptophan is not getting metabolized into kynurenine because of the broken IDO 2? And is then metabolized into serotonin instead?
According to one of the researchers i spoke to at the Montreal conference SSRIs seem to make ME patients worse. This was years before the IDO/metabolic trap discovery so its not a biased observation.
 

Wanja

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SSRI's actually reduce serotonin in long-term (ref). Here is another paper according to which extracellular serotonin levels eventually return following SSRI treatment, but serotonin synthesis and intracellular levels are reduced. It got me wondering: if the metabolic trap causes excess of serotonin, could SSRI's taken over a longer period help the situation?
thats a really interesting idea. do you think we could contact someone at Stanford or Robert Phair to ask or discuss it with them. it could literally save my life atm.
 

Wanja

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According to one of the researchers i spoke to at the Montreal conference SSRIs seem to make ME patients worse. This was years before the IDO/metabolic trap discovery so its not a biased observation.
some are getting better tho and see some benefits... maybe because of the uplifted mood but i dont know.
 

Alvin2

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some are getting better tho and see some benefits... maybe because of the uplifted mood but i dont know.
I've been where you are, wanting to rationalize something because you are desperate.
In the end its your risk to take but if an ME researcher says it causes more problems in their patients i would not take the risk.
 

Alvin2

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maybe because of the uplifted mood but i dont know.
You don't need pills to deal with the existential angst of having ME, finding peace without pills is doable but it does involve soul searching and acceptance.
 

Wanja

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You don't need pills to deal with the existential angst of having ME, finding peace without pills is doable but it does involve soul searching and acceptance.
i was in peace and arranged my life with it, but the winter was so hard i really wanted to try htp 5 to "lift" my mood and see if it helps against derealisation, but it completly crushed me
 

Alvin2

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i was in peace and arranged my life with it, but the winter was so hard i really wanted to try htp 5 to "lift" my mood and see if it helps against derealisation, but it completly crushed me
I'm so sorry to hear this :hug:
Its up to you if you want to try it, i can only relay what an ME researcher told me that it does not help patients and in fact seems to have the opposite effect :(
 

Lala

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100 g of steak contains around 300 mg of tryptophan. So if you eat 60 mg of tryptophan for 5 days, it is the same amount. It is unclear to me how it could cause any additional damage by itself even if one has metabolic trap. You would have to avoid all foods with tryptophan then.
 

Alvin2

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100 g of steak contains around 300 mg of tryptophan. So if you eat 60 mg of tryptophan for 5 days, it is the same amount. It is unclear to me how it could cause any additional damage by itself even if one has metabolic trap. You would have to avoid all foods with tryptophan then.
I had posted this a while back
@Ben H @Janet Dafoe

When i was researching Collagen for bone density i came across these studies which suggests Tryptophan can be intentionally depleted in humans.

Acute tryptophan depletion in humans: a review of theoretical, practical and ethical aspects
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756112/

Pharmacokinetics of acute tryptophan depletion using a gelatin-based protein in male and female Wistar rats
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2705715/
 

Alvin2

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I'm better on 90g whey per day which contents a lot tryptophan
I find that high quality protein powder helps me prevent and quickly resolve PEM. But it has to be the good stuff with the immune factors intact, cheap protein powder that is just the aminos or soy based does something but not nearly as much. BCAAs do something but not much.
 

Wanja

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I find that high quality protein powder helps me prevent and quickly resolve PEM. But it has to be the good stuff with the immune factors intact, cheap protein powder that is just the aminos or soy based does something but not nearly as much. BCAAs do something but not much.
funny i get a really bad response when drinking whey. i get really dizzy and my stomach feels weird, always asked myself where this comes from
 

Wanja

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100 g of steak contains around 300 mg of tryptophan. So if you eat 60 mg of tryptophan for 5 days, it is the same amount. It is unclear to me how it could cause any additional damage by itself even if one has metabolic trap. You would have to avoid all foods with tryptophan then.
this is actually true... my supplement had a higher concentration than that.. but maybe its about the combination of 5 htp and tryptophan? tyrosin was in there as well.
 

Alvin2

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funny i get a really bad response when drinking whey. i get really dizzy and my stomach feels weird, always asked myself where this comes from
No idea, the crazy thing with ME is that different people seem to have different reactions to the same thing.
In regards to whey there are dozens of ingredients and if you could eliminate them one by one you might be able to figure out which one causes your symptoms (if its just one). But no one sells whey with each ingredient removed for you to test.

You can try BCAAs, you can buy some of the immune factors (expensive), you can try soy protein, you can try collagen and gelatin, see what they do or don't do. There may be a few other ones you can try too, you can buy many aminos on their own. But this is going to become a very expensive experiment.

You can get some tryptophan tablets (by prescription in most countries) and see if it has the same effect.
5-HTP is the next metabolized step and not found in whey AFAIK and in my case has different effects than tryptophan.
 

Irat

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Hi Wanna, ,My guess is you did kindle your nervous system especially on NMDA receptors .happened to me many times.i would not try to intervene with more supplements ,.especially everything that acts as an NMDA antagonist like magnesium or zinc.,,,,also of course I don t know for sure what happened to you but this is my own experience and research .but I can be wrong of course.
 

Irat

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Sorry,i wrote your name wrong Wanja. The kindling model on the nervous system role in chronic illness,ME ,drug withdrawal,mold toxicity etc has been discussed here and all over the net many times if your interested,but still it is a theory just like anything else .
Kindling Theory
According to the kindling theory, repeated exposure to an initially subthreshold stimulus can eventually exceed threshold limits, resulting in persistent hypersensitivity to the stimulus and ultimately, spontaneous behavioral manifestations. Kindling among patients with ME/CFS might appear after prolonged stimulation of the limbic-hypothalamic-pituitary axis, either by high-intensity stimulation.....etc etc
 

Wanja

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Hi Wanna, ,My guess is you did kindle your nervous system especially on NMDA receptors .happened to me many times.i would not try to intervene with more supplements ,.especially everything that acts as an NMDA antagonist like magnesium or zinc.,,,,also of course I don t know for sure what happened to you but this is my own experience and research .but I can be wrong of course.
Hm i took magnesium and zinc while the crash becazse i thought it will stabilise my body... Maybe i made something worse by that?
 

Irat

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Hm i took magnesium and zinc while the crash becazse i thought it will stabilise my body... Maybe i made something worse by that?
I don t know.i just know that I kindle or have severe paradoxical reactions to every kind of supplement especially the ones that act on NMDA receptors or clear up glutamate and so do many others I know. When your receptors are upregulated you would make everything worse on the long run by further upregulation.this can happen by taking it or by stopping a supplement.but for many they are fine. I never again will take anything again.i was mild too and I m severe now by trying stuff and some detox.just be careful .
 

Irat

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@Wanja and yes kindling can happen years after the initial incident.........food has not the same effect as an isolated substance as nutrients in food compete with each other and level each other out in the brain.but this doesn t mean that for example sugar can make you feel awful or you could feel an effect in food high in tryptophan or tyrosin on your nervous system .but it's not the same as a supplement.
 

Wanja

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I don t know.i just know that I kindle or have severe paradoxical reactions to every kind of supplement especially the ones that act on NMDA receptors or clear up glutamate and so do many others I know. When your receptors are upregulated you would make everything worse on the long run by further upregulation.this can happen by taking it or by stopping a supplement.but for many they are fine. I never again will take anything again.i was mild too and I m severe now by trying stuff and some detox.just be careful .
is there a list of substances that act on NMDA?
What happened to you? why are you severe now?