Metabolic Trap//Who got worse on l-tryptophan?

Wanja

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So in terms of the Metabolic Trap Theory.
As i am severe now after taking a 5-HTP supplement (bravo, wanja, well done) and my brain doesnt work properly anymore.

Did anybody know of someone or had the same experience after taking such a supplement?

Would LDN or LDA help in this situation?
Could this lead to permanent measurable damage to my brain or is this just a CFS state of mind.
It actually feels like an onholding Serotonin Syndrome, i have the feeling my dopamine is insanely lowered, i have seizures, my vision is sharpened and things appear smaller, derealisation is really bad and there is something like a cover over my consciousness allday long.
Ron Davis warned of Tryptophan and said people experimenting cod kill of parts of their brain. But this would be visible on my scans right?
 
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Judee

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5htp gave me the worst headache/neck ache--almost what I imagine someone experiencing meningitis would experience and Tryptophan set off my IBS badly. I'd had it in remission for years.

This website may explain why: https://badgut.org/information-centre/a-z-digestive-topics/ibs-and-serotonin/

Part of the article says, “My colleagues and I have recently discovered that patients with IBS have a significant decrease in the serotonin transporter, or SERT, in the cells lining the bowel,” said Dr. Gershon. “That means some IBS patients have an inadequate SERT mechanism which causes serotonin to stay around longer, triggering troublesome bowel changes.”
 

seamyb

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I took 5-htp about 5 years ago, long before I had CFS.

It had different effects on me from the ones you describe, but it was brutal.

I started having severe panic attacks, like 2 or 3 per day. I was put on SSRIs which I don't think helped with it. I came up with the theory that it had depleted my vitamin B6, I wasn't long sober from severe alcoholism at this stage and was possibly already depleted of B vitamins. 5-htp uses B6 to convert to serotonin. Anyway, not long after taking a B complex my panic attacks went away - although I've no guarantee that they wouldn't have anyway.
 

Pearshaped

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shortly after I was diagnosed, (2017)
I tried 5-HTP , hoping it will improve my sleep or make me calmer.
It was everytime a horrible experience (heart racing, mind-racing, muscle twitching)
and it took me a while to accept that this for some reason does more harm for me than good.
 
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I never tried it due to the known issues.

Please remind me, what is LDA? LDN is Low-dose Naltrexone?

BCAAs can help to relieve tryptophan accumulation in the case that it really is a substrate inhibition of IDO1.
Can you please explain why BCAA relieve Trp accumulation? I am interested in knowing more
 

JES

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I would at least be cautiously optimistic it's a temporary reaction, so let's hope for the best.

My tolerance of tryptophan has grown worse over time as well. A couple of weeks ago I took a tiny amount of 5-HTP and felt my ears ringing and head being strange for the next 12 hours or so, but luckily returned back to normal after that. I think 5-HTP (5-Hydroxytryptophan) is slightly more risky in that regard than L-tryptophan as it is one less step away from converting to serotonin.

Regarding the metabolic trap, I have looked at the enzyme kinetics and simulations of Robert Phair. From everything I understood, you won't fall into the trap instantly after taking some supplemental tryptophan. It would probably require weeks at least for the tryptophan levels to accumulate, as plenty of foods contain quite a bit of tryptophan as well. Once you are in the trap, it's a different story, but I'm skeptical that us feeling worse with 5-HTP necessarily relates to a metabolic trap. Serotonin does a lot of things and adding more of that might worsen the disease in other ways. There is quite a bit of research on serotonin relating to autoimmune diseases.
 
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I would at least be cautiously optimistic it's a temporary reaction, so let's hope for the best.

My tolerance of tryptophan has grown worse over time as well. A couple of weeks ago I took a tiny amount of 5-HTP and felt my ears ringing and head being strange for the next 12 hours or so, but luckily returned back to normal after that. I think 5-HTP (5-Hydroxytryptophan) is slightly more risky in that regard than L-tryptophan as it is one less step away from converting to serotonin.

Regarding the metabolic trap, I have looked at the enzyme kinetics and simulations of Robert Phair. From everything I understood, you won't fall into the trap instantly after taking some supplemental tryptophan. It would probably require weeks at least for the tryptophan levels to accumulate, as plenty of foods contain quite a bit of tryptophan as well. Once you are in the trap, it's a different story, but I'm skeptical that us feeling worse with 5-HTP necessarily relates to a metabolic trap. Serotonin does a lot of things and adding more of that might worsen the disease in other ways, there is quite a bit of research on serotonin relating to autoimmune diseases.
If you are already in the trap with Trp accumulation. Wouldn't make sense that some added 5-HTP could cause symptoms, as the capacity to buffer is low?
 

JES

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If you are already in the trap with Trp accumulation. Wouldn't make sense that some added 5-HTP could cause symptoms, as the capacity to buffer is low?
That would be a question for Robert Phair (@HTester) to answer. I guess there could be a temporary worsening of symptoms like I had, but according to the trap theory, once you are in the trap, you sort of enter a new steady state with the specific cells that are in the trap already being Trp accumulated, so adding a little bit more or less Trp might not alter this steady state much.

It looks like the daily intake of L-tryptophan from food sources can vary from 0.5 g to 2 g in a typical diet, so I think in the long run a little supplemental tryptophan shouldn't make a big difference if you are already in the trapped state.
 
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There was also a board member board member who avoided food rich in tryptophan for some month and went into a low tryptophan diet. That didn't improve his symptoms (and was quite unhealthy).

5-HTP has a half-life from 2-7 hrs afaik. You had to take very much of it throughout the day or combine it with high doses of an SSRI to get an ongoing (mild, as you describe it) SS.
 

Wanja

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There was also a board member board member who avoided food rich in tryptophan for some month and went into a low tryptophan diet. That didn't improve his symptoms (and was quite unhealthy).

5-HTP has a half-life from 2-7 hrs afaik. You had to take very much of it throughout the day or combine it with high doses of an SSRI to get an ongoing (mild, as you describe it) SS.
Yeah but my theory was that i triggered/snowballed my Tryptophan and Serotonin production with the metabolic trap. I was so mild i did weightlifting and worked fulltime before. I felt worse the weeks before the crash tho.

Maybe the 5-HTP (it was a comb of L-Tryptophan, Tyrosin, 5-Htp, B6 etc)
pulled the trigger on the Trap and over the next month the Tryptoohan accumulated more and more leading to more serotonin, also depleting my dopamin. I hope somebody can tell me different as i am a noob with these things.

But something in my brain is just completly broken to the point i am on the edge now.

I really need help finding out what happened, i am not sure somebody ever experienced something like this with or without CFS. Its my own personal nightmare.

Everytime i woke up paralyzed with this doom feeling it got worse... Its all so weird
 

Wanja

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There was also a board member board member who avoided food rich in tryptophan for some month and went into a low tryptophan diet. That didn't improve his symptoms (and was quite unhealthy).

5-HTP has a half-life from 2-7 hrs afaik. You had to take very much of it throughout the day or combine it with high doses of an SSRI to get an ongoing (mild, as you describe it) SS.
But i mean there have to be other cases like me right?
Thats why i wondered if i even have CFS. I mean there is still the possibility for Autoimmuneenzephalitis, we will find out soon when the results are here.

But wouldnt it be possible to get an ongoing serotonin syndrome in theory by the metabolic trap?
 

Wanja

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That would be a question for Robert Phair (@HTester) to answer. I guess there could be a temporary worsening of symptoms like I had, but according to the trap theory, once you are in the trap, you sort of enter a new steady state with the specific cells that are in the trap already being Trp accumulated, so adding a little bit more or less Trp might not alter this steady state much.

It looks like the daily intake of L-tryptophan from food sources can vary from 0.5 g to 2 g in a typical diet, so I think in the long run a little supplemental tryptophan shouldn't make a big difference if you are already in the trapped state.
But why did Ron Davis warn so much of tryptophan supplememts then? I mean if the trap is going in all cfs patients and it would make no difference he wouldnt warn of them right?
 
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But i mean there have to be other cases like me right?
Thats why i wondered if i even have CFS. I mean there is still the possibility for Autoimmuneenzephalitis, we will find out soon when the results are here.

But wouldnt it be possible to get an ongoing serotonin syndrome in theory by the metabolic trap?
Honestly, I'm a lawyer not a doc. You've got me stumped. Others here know more!