Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Reading_Steiner]

seems worth looking into but I see no proof and it seems selfish that this person has kept it to themselves if they did cure all those people like they say so.

 

[Hipsman]

seems worth looking into but I see no proof and it seems selfish that this person has kept it to themselves if they did cure all those people like they say so.

is there any other doctors/researchers that looked into using autovaccines for ME/CFS type diseases? maybe nobody else just considered using autovaccines?

 

[Hipsman]

I discovered back in 2019 about Dr.Markov from this report:
(translated most relevant part)

Guys, I'm not trying to persuade or force anyone to go to him. There have always been a lot of negative comments about him, in 2012 too, just like now. So you decide for yourself. His methodology (anatoxin, bacteriophages, and autovaccines) helps only if the problem is in bacteria. It worked for me.
In the year 2012 I got rid of staphylococcus and Klebsiella (from my nose and throat), these had been there for many years, and weren't sensitive to most antibiotics. I had no maxillary sinuses for 7 years already. And most likely in 2017-2018 too. After two courses of autovaccines, my sublingual temperature was gone, and everything has been OK for the last 1.5 years.
At the same time I was taking "Potopalsky's(doctor) izatizone". Which treatment worked better - I don't know, but it's a fact.
And yes, I have HHV-7 in my blood according to Ramodanova (PCR testing lab), and consistently low NK-cells (2-3%, with the norm of 6 at least).
I haven't gotten around to checking those tests since my recovery, though. Maybe something has changed.
I had sublingual temperature for about 1.5 years, so I was treated by Dr.Maltsev and Dr.Kazimirchuk, and another immunologist. The only thing that helped was Dr.Markov's treatment/autovaccines. So in my case it probably wasn't herpes viruses.

For some reason there haven't been any interest in his treatment since 2019, perhaps because that report was posted on ME/CFS forum that was dedicated to herpes virus associated ME/CFS...

 

[bensmith]

@Hipsman interesting thank you. It sounds like it didnt work for others. I wonder if the 95 percent success rate is accurate. Im supprised more people have no tried thisWhat level was that person at if yoy know?

are you thinking of trying this?

@ME/CFS - Mystery No More! Under ME/CFS hides CBIS - are there certain symtpoms we should look for in ourselves to be a good canidate? What is the cost of treatment?

please respond to some of these questions we can see you checking this thread.

 

[Hipsman]

What level was that person at if yoy know?

I'm not sure, I suspect moderate or mild to moderate. It's unclear what her ME/CFS really was, because she says that treatment helped her get rid of chronic sinusitis, maybe chronic infection was causing her ME/CFS:

The cause of this maxillary sinusitis was Staphylococcus aureus and Klebsiella penumbium, they were insensitive to many antibiotics

EDIT:

are you thinking of trying this?

I alredy tried Russian Staphylococcus Adsorbed Vaccine, it lead to short term improvements, but the improvements quickly faded and within a month I was back to baseline, perhaps when I ran out of thing to try I will give a shot to autovaccines...

 

[Booble]

I have not read all the responses so apologies in advance if I'm repeating someone else --- I think the potential fallacy here is the number of cases of CFS/ME that come about after a VIRAL infection, rather than a bacterial infection. It would seem odd how many people get a viral infection and don't ever recover. What would that have to do with bacteria?

 

[Hipsman]

There is very little reports on Markov's autovaccines in russian ME/CFS groups that I know of, some people say his vaccines might increase autoimmunity for those who already have autoimmune condition...

 

[bensmith]

Thats a bit worrisome. Oof.

i just cant believe more havent tried it. People are over here getting neck surgery ffs.

@Booble good question

 

[Hipsman]

My thinking is this thou: in theory, any vaccine might increase autoimmunity since they stimulate immune system.

 

[ljimbo423]

I have not read all the responses so apologies in advance if I'm repeating someone else --- I think the potential fallacy here is the number of cases of CFS/ME that come about after a VIRAL infection, rather than a bacterial infection. It would seem odd how many people get a viral infection and don't ever recover. What would that have to do with bacteria?

I don't agree with the idea that a kidney infection causes ME/CFS. So if this treatment works, I don't think it's by treating a subclinical kidney infection. The cure rate is also way to high, imo, to be true.

I don't think viruses do more than "trigger" ME/CFS, as does stress and other infections. I think viral infections cause lasting changes in the bodies of those of us that develop ME/CFS after a viral infection.

This is what ME/CFS researcher Derya Unutmaz says about infections triggering ME/CFS-

Putting the patient back together

Unutmaz hypothesizes that ME/CFS is caused by a change in a patient’s microbiome after an infection.

Our microbiome consists of our microbes—trillions of bacteria, viruses, and fungi that are living in and on our bodies. A misbalance in our microbes can change the makeup of our entire microbiome, which triggers an inflammatory response and causes the immune system to perceive that there is still a danger in our bodies – even when an infection is long gone.

Unutmaz and his collaborators are approaching ME/CFS by examining the unique immune profiles – the dozens of subpopulations of immune cells that are unique to every person, shaped by medical history, past infections, microbiome, diet and more - of more than 100 patients and healthy controls.


“We’re sequencing thousands of species of bacteria. We’re determining hundreds of different populations of immune cells in the same person. We’re also analyzing their metabolism and thousands of different metabolites in their blood. We’re trying to put the patient’s biology back together,” explained Unutmaz.


Using an integrated analysis that requires an incredible amount of computation and technology, he and his group are combining this data with clinical data in order to look for biomarkers of the disease.


Unutmaz says they are already seeing profound differences in the immune systems of ME/CFS patients compared to controls. “We’re very excited about that,” he said. “In my mind, there’s no question that there’s an immunological basis for this disease.” Finding a biological basis for the disease, Unutmaz, said, would enable a physician to easily diagnose ME/CFS by identifying the corresponding biomarker.

So it could be that IF this treatment works. It might be working by altering the microbiome.

https://www.jax.org/news-and-insights/2018/june/decoding-chronic-illness#

 

[Alvin2]

I don't agree with the idea that a kidney infection causes ME/CFS. So if this treatment works, I don't think it's by treating a subclinical kidney infection. The cure rate is also way to high, imo, to be true.

I agree that this claim is fantastical and short on credibility.
But to not be closed minded i am happy to reverse my judgment if they can provide data and this phenomenon can be independently reproduced.

I look forward to both those things happening.

As one of my favourite Klingons once said, Trust is earned, not given away.

 

[bensmith]

Damn, ty hip.

 

[ljimbo423]

As one of my favourite Klingons once said, Trust is earned, not given away.

Another Star Trek fan!

There's also the saying that "having an open mind don't mean my brain will fall out". Which I also agree with.

 

[Hipsman]

Unless I mistakenly got the wrong guy, take a gander around his clinic's website (you'll need to use a translator). Is he a 1. gynecologist, 2. urologist 3. pediatrician, 3. immunologist 4. infectious disease specialist

I think the translation may be a bit wrong, they should have different specialists like gynecologist, urologist, pediatrician, immunologist, infectious disease specialist

 

[andyguitar]

Unless I mistakenly got the wrong guy, take a gander around his clinic's website (you'll need to use a translator). Is he a 1. gynecologist, 2. urologist 3. pediatrician, 3. immunologist 4. infectious disease specialist 5.

If you click the link you posted to the clinic and click on "Markov Clinic" (at the topof the page) and select "Clinic Specialists" it has a list of the Doctors who work at the clinic.

 

[hapl808]

It's more than a bit strange when you theoretically have sky high success rates but a ton of bad reviews.

Also quite different than someone like Dr Goldstein who carefully outlined his theories, his treatment protocols, etc. None of which you really had to see him to receive if you had a willing doctor. And while I never saw him, forums like these always have some of his former patients who often tell stories of full or partial recoveries that lasted for a period of months or years, followed by a relapse (presumably why they're still on the forums years later). A mixed bag, like many of the stories. If someone truly had solved this issue for the majority of patients, none of us would be posting here anymore.

If a senior member here who had moderate to severe CFS for 10+ years were suddenly cured, then I'd feel quite differently.

 

[Hip]

Also quite different than someone like Dr Goldstein who carefully outlined his theories, his treatment protocols, etc.

I think Dr Jay Goldstein's ME/CFS treatments were often flash-in-the-pan short-lived gimmicky effects he obtained from various drugs, rather than any long-lasting solutions to treating ME/CFS.

I actually had an amazing 2-week near remission from one of Goldstein's drugs: the antidepressant Wellbutrin (bupropion). I thought I had found my personal escape from ME/CFS. But then exactly two weeks later, the drug just stopped working for me, and has never worked since.

I have heard that many of Dr Goldstein's ME/CFS treatment were like this, a short-lived effect that impresses patients, but does not pan out in the long term.

But yes I agree Goldstein did publish many books where he explained his ideas, and detailed his treatments.

 

[hapl808]

It's been many years since I had a good 2 weeks, so I'd take it. Wellbutrin has always interested me because my PEM crashes have always felt much worse whenever something stimulates my adrenaline (either stressful or enjoyable - doesn't matter). I have not trialed it, though, as I'm always concerned about experimenting with things that are designed to change neurotransmitter function as many people seem to have long lasting bad effects as well as good ones.

I also liked Goldstein's approach in that if something stopped working, he didn't seem to blame the patient but would work on finding a different drug combo. That's again my understanding from reading his books, not seeing him.

 

[Alvin2]

Dear ME/CFS-Community,
Thanks a lot for your comments from June 1. Answering your comments:

this is about understanding the true nature/origin ME/CFS and it’s so long-awaited good news for ME/CFS-Community: based on the systematic clinical researches ME/CFS (2009-2021), the true nature of ME/CFS has been discovered & it’s found a diagnostic-therapeutical solution to its problem.
Repeating once more our general findings, ME/CFS is caused by a chronic often asymptomatic hidden latent bacteriologically confirmed bacteria infection in the kidneys (Nephrodysbacteriosis©). Such infection develops more often after over-use of antibiotics (often - beginning from childhood, especially by repeated and long courses) and may persist in the kidneys for years and decades and releases bacterial endo-&exotoxins into the bloodstream (that confirmed toxicologically), and those toxins cause the development of endotoxicosis and severe general intoxication of the organism with toxic damage to its various organs and systems that leads to the subsequent development of Chronic Bacterial Intoxication Syndrome© (CBIS) with more than 70 clinical symptoms of its manifestation.
Chronic Bacterial Intoxication Syndrome© (CBIS) is a new previously unknown disease/diagnosis that hides under the mask of ME/CFS in more than 95% cases of ME/CFS.
It’s developed differential clinical diagnostics and treatment of ME/CFS-CBIS without traditional prescribing of antibiotics, by using mono-/bi-/poly-valent autovaccines (which may be used unlimited individually "from a patient - to this patient", for them is not necessary any double blind placebo clinical trial as for massive production of vaccines), which target the kidney infection.

These claims have not passed any kind of peer review or replication as far as i can tell hence are premature.

To LASSESEN “Their results are creditable, their treatment is creditable — their model may not be” (June 1):
Phages, as preparations of local contact action, which are practically not absorbed into the blood, are not suitable for the treatment of Nephrodysbacteriosis© (a focus of chronic bacterial infection in the kidneys). Antibiotics also unsuitable. Therefore - only autovaccines.

Such a categorical statement lacks credibility.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Warm urine... impossible for severely ill patients, they can’t visit a lab