It's all in the Gut. Why we get ME/CFS

[redo]

Now there are two questions I feel needs answering to unravel this disease. The first being why such different things as a vaccine, EBV and giardia can trigger the disease. That's discussed above.

The second thing is why is this disease so much more prevalent now, than fifty or a hundred years ago? My hypothesis for the last question, and this is uncertain, is that the retrovirus/RNA virus behind the disease has the gut as it's reservoir. And the virus has been one of many latent viruses being in humans for a very long time. But because the ecology of the gut have changed so radically the last century, and at least decades, we're now in a totally different situation. Now, what used to be a protective gut ecology, just isn't there anymore in many cases. It's highly changed. The reason for the gut ecology changes (gut flora changes) which mankind (at least in Western parts of the world) have seen, is because of what evolutionary can be definded as getting huge amounts of refined carbs every year.

Now I am not saying eat well and all will be well (like in a cure). I don't think it's that easy. But I do think this could be one of the most important reasons we're seeing more of these diseases in Western countries (poorer prevalence studies in non Western countries can't account for all of the difference), and I think it's the reason why the diseases (CFS, FMS, RA, MS etc) are much more prevalent now than fifty years ago.

 

[rydra_wong]

I agree but I think your focus is wrong. I think the focus should be on strengthening the body so it does not let anything overgrow.
This is the focus of earth science folks like the woman who writes the enzymestuff website. You make the lawn healthy and it chokes
out the weeds. You should read her book: http://enzymestuff.com/

Of course this is easy to say but hard to do. i certainly don't do all that stuff in her book. I know that I do not make enough stomach acid and that is the PRIME defence against microorganisms gaining entry to the body or overgrowing. I am trying to figure out the low stomach acid thing (and I think it is tied to low copper and hyperthyroid but have not managed to fix it yet -- I am timid in taking copper but women over 50 get deficient because estrogen helps us absorb it and we have less estrogen). In the meantime I take 1g/day Olive Leaf Extract. It kills everything. If I stop taking it I get a feeling like I got thrush and so I take it and it goes away within the hour. Kills everything nasty and my gut is just fine.

I have COMT +/+ genetics though and I read for some reason dopamine is supposed to suppress pathogen overgrowth. So I couldn't say for sure why I generally do not suffer gut pathogens. There are so many variables!!

 

[Gloria H]

Hi Madietodd

I saw your post about the + button, but didn't understand. Do you mean that + at the bottom right of a post? Is it a way to save a post to hard drive? I clicked it but didn't understand what it did.
Blessings to you!

 

[maddietod]

Gloria - I don't know what post that was. Look for a private message from me in "Notifications".

Madie

 

[rydra_wong]

I am researching diabetic neuropathy for my brother i law and I ran across this of interest to this topc at the other website from MantisStyle:

Regarding the yeast thing, apparently copper is used by the body to keep yeast under control. But when the adrenals are weak, the copper is not properly bound, so it accumulates and cannot be used by the body. So maybe if someone with yeast problems can get their adrenals under control with active b12, zinc (antagonistic to copper), vitamin e, (i would guess selenium), and other vits/ minerals, maybe the yeast would be properly controlled again.

Here is the link:
http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/candida.htm

and a quote from it:

Copper is the bodys natural anti-candida agent. Farmers often spray copper sulfate on fruits and vegetables to kill yeast and molds. Water departments may add copper compounds to drinking water for the same reason. Copper may be added to swimming pools and hot tubs to control yeast. Copper favors aerobic metabolism which disables yeast.

Everyone with candida has a copper imbalance. Most often, copper is present but not available to the body. This is due to deficiency of ceruloplasmin, a copper binding protein. Adrenal hormones are required to produce ceruloplasmin. Underactive, exhausted adrenal glands or sluggish liver activity cause a decrease in ceruloplasmin production. As a result, copper is not properly bound and is less available to the body. Until the copper-adrenal-liver condition is corrected, candida is difficult to control.

So, basically, copper builds in the tissues, but it cannot be utilized I believe unless the body is producing enough ceruloplasmin which is the job of the adrenals...

 

[redo]

This thread by bob fits just perfect into the theory of gut, RNA viruses, autoimmunity. First the gut bacteria is altered, which paves way for RNA virus infection, which again leads to auto immunity.

As I wrote earlier, this is a work in progress, and I have been thinking that this is really the best way to fit the pieces together. And it would explain why we see the steep rise in ME and "related syndromes" the last century. New gut flora, because the people have changed the diets...

 

[mellster]

Redo, but this could imply that bacterial infection is the root cause and viruses are just opportunistic - and that the th2 shift is justified then. Have been pondering about this a lot lately..

 

[maddietod]

As I wrote earlier, this is a work in progress, and I have been thinking that this is really the best way to fit the pieces together. And it would explain why we see the steep rise in ME and "related syndromes" the last century. New gut flora, because the people have changed the diets...

So do you have any thoughts about what happens when we radically shift our diet, like to Paleo? I'm not asking for comments on that particular diet. I'm wondering what you think about the ability of our gut ecology to reconfigure itself to a healthy balance, if all of the input (food, drink) is changed.

 

[redo]

That's an interesting question Madietodd. My view is that the viruses are already activated, so a drastic improvement is unlikely. So, my best guess is that for many they wont notice all that much of a difference, for some they will definately notice a difference (mostly those whom get worse from certain foods), and I think for a small minority it would work very well. I went on a "no carbs diet" for some 3-6 months (the only carbs I ate where some salad leafs, whole grain crisp bread and the tiny dash of carbs which is naturally in eggs). I didn't get any better. I can't remember if I dropped milk, but I don't think so. If I where to try again, I'd try no milk and carbs. It's really a long shot, but perhaps something would happen. If you decide try, please give us a report on how it goes.

As for how the gut ecology will reconfigure itself, I think it could to some extent, but if the problem with the gut is mainly overgrowth of some certain bacteria, than it will be difficult to quench them. Just like c. diff. in many cases becomes chronic, and wont go away despite better diet.

 

[heapsreal]

if there are anaerobic infections in the cut you would think they would have a preference for sugars and carbs, similar reasoning behind the anti-candida type diets. Plus a low carb diet potentially limits the amount of possible food allergens we may have but dont know which ones, i guess??
Many cfsers seem to function better on low carb diets, green veges and fibrous type veges and berries are good non meat foods to add to low carb diet too.

cheers!!!

 

[redo]

The tooth ache of the gut
(OT: Does anyone react to that expression?)
I am thinking: When we eat candy and such, the result could be overgrowth of some harmful bacteria and caries in our mouth, and the result is tooth ache. If we go a little further down, we come to our gut. The gut contains thousands of more strains of bacteria than our mouths. The result here wouldn't be that massive overgrowth of the wrong bacteria causes cavities, but rather that the new shift in active bacteria can cause a "cavity of the immune system". What happens than, is that the immune system changes in such a way that it allows for some harmful RNA viruses to flourish.

Just like with the cavities in our mouth, killing the bacteria after the damage is done doesn't necessarily fix the problem. But it might help. I think that's a major reason why some antibiotics really can help ME patients. When the RNA viruses are already activated, what you could do is either quench the virus, or quench the auto-immunity/auto-inflammatory disease which the RNA viruses causes. As long as the RNA virus is active, it's likely that the illness will persist.

I want to give a big thanks to Bob for time and time again digging up fascinating articles (such as in post #266).

 

[redo]

I am thinking I'll might piece all this together as more pieces fall into place. Make a blog post of it. Get some real illustrations. Shorten it down, and get some catchy phrases which will make it easier to read through.

What I present is simply my worldview, and I might very well not be spot on. But I think the best way of moving forward is sharing ideas, getting and giving input, both telling people why it could be so, or not so. Poking holes in theories, and resetting them. Time will tell, but I got the feeling that the "toothache of the gut" theory above is the reason for many of the major syndromes we have seen grow so rapidly in the Western world the last generations. ME/CFS of course one of them.

 

[redo]

Gut bacteria plays central role in MS. Two articles.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111027112520.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100719162643.htm

 

[kaffiend]

Gut bacteria plays central role in MS. Two articles.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111027112520.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100719162643.htm

Bifidobacterium infantis, available in the probiotic Align, has been shown to reduce IL-17. I just started taking it yesterday. Even though I've never had any conventional IBS symptoms, food sensitivities cause severe neurological problems for me. Other probiotics have helped a great deal.

 

[maddietod]

The tooth ache of the gut
(OT: Does anyone react to that expression?)
I am thinking: When we eat candy and such, the result could be overgrowth of some harmful bacteria and caries in our mouth, and the result is tooth ache. If we go a little further down, we come to our gut. The gut contains thousands of more strains of bacteria than our mouths. The result here wouldn't be that massive overgrowth of the wrong bacteria causes cavities, but rather that the new shift in active bacteria can cause a "cavity of the immune system". What happens than, is that the immune system changes in such a way that it allows for some harmful RNA viruses to flourish.

Redo, I've been mulling this over, and I cling to the hope that enormous healing is possible due to the fluidity of the gut and the immune system. No matter how little sugar I eat, my teeth will never fill in their cavities. But a properly nourished leaky gut can heal. Avoidance of allergens does give the immune system a rest.

ps If you figure out a way to regrow my teeth, please PM me.

 

[merylg]

Bifidobacterium infantis, available in the probiotic Align, has been shown to reduce IL-17. I just started taking it yesterday. Even though I've never had any conventional IBS symptoms, food sensitivities cause severe neurological problems for me. Other probiotics have helped a great deal.

Hi kaffiend,

I wasn't able to see how I could purchase Align from Australia. So I've ordered another brand of Probiotic that contains the B. infantis strain. Please post how you get on with it, as I have similar problems to you.

I read somewhere? that B. infantis doesn't survive in the adult gut...so I'm wondering whether this can be true???

meryl

 

[leela]

madie, there is info on healing cavities and regrowing enamel through diet and supplementation out there. i've not tried it due to some of the ingredients being in conflict with my dietary plan, (which may be an issue for you too) but you can start by checking out the Weston A Price foundation.

The mouth is, after all, part of the alimentary canal, so this is not entirely off-topic.

 

[kaffiend]

The full text of the mouse study on experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE) is available free. "These findings reveal that the intestinal microbiota profoundly impacts the balance between pro- and antiinflammatory immune responses during EAE and suggest that modulation of gut bacteria may provide therapeutic targets for extraintestinal inflammatory diseases such as MS."

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/suppl.1/4615.long

 

[boomer]

Does anyone know if dr. kenny de meirleir was a gastroenterologist before specializing in cfs/me? Thanks.

 

[*GG*]

Redo, I've been mulling this over, and I cling to the hope that enormous healing is possible due to the fluidity of the gut and the immune system. No matter how little sugar I eat, my teeth will never fill in their cavities. But a properly nourished leaky gut can heal. Avoidance of allergens does give the immune system a rest.

ps If you figure out a way to regrow my teeth, please PM me.

A couple of links on teeth:

http://www.naturalnews.com/033854_cavities_remedies.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/029112_teeth_regeneration.html I tried this, but did not work for me.

GG