Is Folate inhibiting Thiamine (B-1) ?

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I have found that SAM-e throughput (by taking methionine), not necessarily folic acid cycle activity, causes hypochlorhydria symptoms that are alleviated by taking benfotiamine, and the dose needed is proportional to the amount of SAM-e throughput. For whatever reason, I find that methylfolate and mb12 do not increase SAM-e throughput, which is exactly what Walsh described in undermethylators many years ago.
 

Gondwanaland

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I've seen that page by Weber before -- it's interesting, but I do worry about his emphasis on copper. Most vegetables are high in copper, at least compared to zinc, so one can end up getting too much copper rather than the other way around. But that's coming from someone who was diagnosed with 'copper toxicity'…so take it with a grain of salt. :)
In these past days I have found out about new dimensions of copper deficieny and am re-reading Weber's bits on copper...
 
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I checked out your thread @Gondwanaland and can understand how confusing and complicated it can get when one is taking so many supplements (I'm trying to cut back as well), and have been indeed taking probably too much thiamine myself over the last year. (It helped me big time back in 2003, so I thought it would again.) But in doing so I may have depleted folate, so am backing off the b1, and increasing folinic again.


I've been dealing with salicylate issues for years (at least I think that's part of my problem) and have posted quite a bit here on PR about the thiamine/salicylate interactions (and sulfites, etc.), but also realized a few days ago that there is a connection with low folate/b12 and histamine. Methylation is one of the key ways that histamine is broken down, so that's another reason I'm going back on folinic.


I've seen that page by Weber before -- it's interesting, but I do worry about his emphasis on copper. Most vegetables are high in copper, at least compared to zinc, so one can end up getting too much copper rather than the other way around. But that's coming from someone who was diagnosed with 'copper toxicity'…so take it with a grain of salt. :)
Highest copper in vegetables I could find was spinach, and thats 34% RDA per 100grams. So even if you are eating 300 grams of spinach or vegetable equivalent per day you are still only getting maximum 102% RDA from that.
 

Gondwanaland

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Gondwanaland

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@PeterPositive RDA seems to vary according to the size of the capsule at the manufacturing time :eek:
The maximum amount od copper suplementation I personally tolerate is 600mcg bound with zinc.

Mollusks are very high in zinc (as pretty much every high copper food o_O). I have always craved mushrooms and avocados my whole life, but lately haven't been able to tolerate well the salycilates in them :thumbdown:

The problemwith some foods in that list is that some of them are very high in testosterone inhibitory phytoestrogens, and this seems to cancellate any benefit from the minerals :meh:
 

PeterPositive

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I have found that SAM-e throughput (by taking methionine), not necessarily folic acid cycle activity, causes hypochlorhydria symptoms that are alleviated by taking benfotiamine, and the dose needed is proportional to the amount of SAM-e throughput. For whatever reason, I find that methylfolate and mb12 do not increase SAM-e throughput, which is exactly what Walsh described in undermethylators many years ago.
Interesting. I suppose methyl-B12 and methionine, with sufficient reduced folate, should modulate SAMe.

I have a similar issue with low SAMe not budging with all the necessary methylation factors and co-factors. And I was wondering if methionine could be a limiting factor.

Since my homocysteine is moderately elevated (~12.5mmol/l) it should suggest that I am not recycling it correctly, although there's no amount of B12/B6/B9 etc... that I can throw at it to change the situation.

I am not clear what caused hypochlorhydria symptoms for you... higher SAMe or extra methionine supplements?

thanks
 

Gondwanaland

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I have three severe food sensitivity based on test: egg yolk, sulfites and gelatin. It seems like there are many dots there must be connected.
All my dots have been leading to excessive uric acid production + build up in joints / tissues / organs.

I didn't take a test, but can't tolerate any of those either. Egg yolk is high in vit A which feeds uric acid production; sulfites because molybdenum is used up in uric acid prodution; gelatin due to functional B6 deficiency which turns hydroxyproline into oxalates.
 

jjxx

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All my dots have been leading to excessive uric acid production + build up in joints / tissues / organs.

I didn't take a test, but can't tolerate any of those either. Egg yolk is high in vit A which feeds uric acid production; sulfites because molybdenum is used up in uric acid prodution; gelatin due to functional B6 deficiency which turns hydroxyproline into oxalates.
But the funny thing is that I enjoy those foods, they never seem make me sick after consuming them, at times even in large quantity! If not the test, I would never know it. Corn makes me ill but it's not on the list I have reaction to. That's why I have always had doubt about my test with false negatives and false positives.
I must study uric acid, of which I never thought could be of some concern to me.
Are you still on Freddd's methylation protocol? It requires high dosage of A, what did you do?
 

jjxx

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I know you didn't have uric acid test, but do you suspect your serum uric acid being high? I just looked mine, it's in the middle range. What's your take on it? Probably you can suggest some better alarming signs in term of symptoms?
 

Gondwanaland

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Are you still on Freddd's methylation protocol? It requires high dosage of A, what did you do?
I could never get past the 1st week on folate titration due to gouty symptoms. Perhaps if I had started on high doses I would've had better chances since apparently folate or its byproducts can inhibit the enzyme which produces uric acid (xanthine oxidase)
Have you found the latest updates on the protocol? Some are here.

At some point I did try vit A and felt horrible on it (incl with increased hair loss).
But the funny thing is that I enjoy those foods, they never seem make me sick after consuming them, at times even in large quantity!
Same here.
I know you didn't have uric acid test, but do you suspect your serum uric acid being high? I just looked mine, it's in the middle range. What's your take on it?
My average serum UA has always been 5.4.
Last Nov I took magnesium malate and had a huge UA stirr up. I could only get a dr's order to test serum UA one month later, and the result was 6.2. I suspect it was pretty high right after the malate dose.
Probably you can suggest some better alarming signs in term of symptoms?
I suspect progesterone intolerance could be a hint. Zinc has the same effect on me. I think they solubilize UA (see the list of metals that help with UA solubilization in the link above). But can't say it for sure. I won't recommend you to take malate because I am still not over the side effects :ill:

I think this is a developed problem, and I see that many people can avoid its progression or overcome it by following Freddd's protocol, iodine protocol, chelation protocol with ALA, liver flushes, coffee enemas, keto diets etc. My current understanding is that all those protocols have the same aim: getting the uric acid out.
 

jjxx

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Have you found the latest updates on the protocol? Some are here.
Yes luckily I did.

At some point I did try vit A and felt horrible on it (incl with increased hair loss)
I suspect my hair loss from protein malabsorption, hormone imbalance, probably a slight Zn insufficiency(?).


I suspect progesterone intolerance could be a hint. Zinc has the same effect on me. I think they solubilize UA (see the list of metals that help with UA solubilization in the link above). But can't say it for sure. I won't recommend you to take malate because I am still not over the side effects :ill:

I think this is a developed problem, and I see that many people can avoid its progression or overcome it by following Freddd's protocol, iodine protocol, chelation protocol with ALA, liver flushes, coffee enemas, keto diets etc. My current understanding is that all those protocols have the same aim: getting the uric acid out.
You mean Zn aggrevate your uric acid problem? On another post, I was asking your advice about Zn supplement for my mom. I paid very little attention to uric acid before talking to you even though I do have knee pain as a persistent complaint (some may call it joint pain, I only experience around my knee are, is one classical symptoms of CFS defined by CDC of US.) This type of discomfort prevents me standing long. I have never related to gout.
As for progesterone intolerance, I have been thinking your suggestion of it being B3 deficient. I come up a conflicting hyposthesis: During the second half of cycle, progesterone increases, and promotes B3 production. B3 depletes methyl groups, and that's why people use B3 whenever they feel overmethylated. I know I am an undermethylater, that's why I am trying Freddd's.
 

Gondwanaland

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ou mean Zn aggrevate your uric acid problem? On another post, I was asking your advice about Zn supplement for my mom. I paid very little attention to uric acid before talking to you even though I do have knee pain as a persistent complaint (some may call it joint pain, I only experience around my knee are, is one classical symptoms of CFS defined by CDC of US.) This type of discomfort prevents me standing long. I have never related to gout.
Well, to be more precise, it seems that a gout crisis is when the uric acid deposited in the joints go into solution, otherwise it is called arthritis.

I can't take zinc at all, and can't aadvise on that.
During the second half of cycle, progesterone increases, and promotes B3 production.
This consumes tryptophan + B6
B3 depletes methyl groups, and that's why people use B3 whenever they feel overmethylated. I know I am an undermethylater, that's why I am trying Freddd's.
Not surprisingly B3 supplementation is also linked with kidney stone formation.
 

jjxx

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Re-reading this I just see sulfites, sulfites and sulfites, and B1 destruction... Have you found out anythig further about it? Surely glycation is involved.
No I have not....
Sulfite doesn't seem bother me nearly as much as it used to.