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Instantaneous effect from Methylfolate/B12?

GreenMachineX

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@Freddd
Thank you for all of that. The only folate other than the methylfolate I get is from eggs, peanuts, almonds, sunflower seeds, and spinach or broccoli. Maybe this is still too much?

Regarding refeeding syndrome symptoms, it sounds like I’m getting paradoxically or induced folate deficiency. Especially when I take a little extra and I’m completely fine for about 6 hours. Even though I’m hesitant and scared honestly, I’ll increase to 400mcg 3 times a day. I waited too long I think this morning and now have palpitations and anxiety which seem to be my first induced deficiency symptoms. I’m pretty sure I haven’t yet had hypokalemia symptoms as I never have issues with my gut or digestive system. Adding to that, I’m prescribed a blood pressure med called telmisartan that is potassium sparing and there’s all kinds of warning about potassium supplements causing hyperkalemia on this. Do you think it could help maintain potassium balance so I won’t need to supplement extra, but perhaps just eat enough? I will get blood tests to see what my blood potassium is in a few days.


As far as everything else, I’ll be increasing methylcobalamin to 500mcg tomorrow, probably stop the adenosylcobalamin and keep the methylfolate at 1.2mg for a couple days.
 

GreenMachineX

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@Freddd
Something else I just noticed you said, b12 creates more need for more folate? So by increasing methyl b12, I’m going to need more methylfolate? Wouldn’t it be best to try to find the lowest possible dose that provides the brightening (which should be enough for healing as we’ll, correct?) and then just titrate up the folate from there? It sounds like I might induce a need for supplemental potassium when if I just went slower on the increases, I could prevent that need? Like I said earlier, being on an angiotensin receptor blocker already creates a situation of potassium retention and hyperkalemia side effects (death!) sound just as bad as hypokalemia symptoms!
Also, with these small doses I’m using, even though it might take a year or more, could they eventually correct a deficiency? I understand it might prolong symptoms, but I’m just wondering if it’s possible...
 

GreenMachineX

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@Freddd
Another component to be mindful of in my case, I’m prescribed testosterone replacement which really drives up my hematocrit so I have to be careful how much of all this I use because at one point I was using injectable b12 with Thorne 2 Per Day with my testosterone and my hematocrit ended up 58! That was scary.
 

Freddd

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When I still had mercury symptoms, I would often wake in the night with extreme agitation and twitching/tensed muscles. I would take a mB12 sublingual and my symptoms would start to fade away literally within seconds. It felt like the tension was just bleeding out of my muscles. It was quite amazing, really. Within a few minutes I would be asleep.

My case seems to have been caused by toxicity (mercury), not genetic, since I haven't needed any supplemental B12 since my last amalgams came out 8 months ago.
Hi Garyfritz,

Mercury destroys MeCbl. 80% of mercury symptoms are not toxic per se. They are MeCbl deficiency. The only MeCbl that can be gotten is the serum MeCbl, all 6-20 mcg that are typically circulating. On this site, I posted the results of a model of MeCbl and mercury. Mercury aggressively strips the methyl from the MeCbl leaving the rest to combine with something like glutathione or other item but not methyl. It makes monomethylmercury. That is excreted via the liver bile at about 1% per day. This was based case studies of accidental contamination with monomethylmercury, the amount that has to be in circulation to cause toxic responses compared to how much MeCbl in various doses makes MMM. A lot of MeCbl can be ruined by relatively small doses of mercury. 1 mg of mercury can destroy 6 mg of MeCbl over time. A study recently published, or at least press release version, was about how effective selenium is at removing the symptoms of mercury by combining it into an inert compound with selenium. One mg of mercury can ruin all the MeCbl circulating in the body for 3 years. Toxic symptoms start at about 30mg of MMM in the serum according to what I read. That is enough to destroy a lifetime of MeCbl in being converted to MMM. That is very destructive. Glad to hear you are doing well.
 

Freddd

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@Freddd
Another component to be mindful of in my case, I’m prescribed testosterone replacement which really drives up my hematocrit so I have to be careful how much of all this I use because at one point I was using injectable b12 with Thorne 2 Per Day with my testosterone and my hematocrit ended up 58! That was scary.
@GeenMachineX,

I take testosterone replacement therapy. When I started correcting my copper deficiency my copper climbed closer to the lower range which was still deficient for me, my testosterone increased a bit and my hematocrit climbed into the 50s, higher than is safe. I stopped taking all the P5P I was taking and stayed with B6. That dropped my hematocrit down to mid 40s. I take a specific B-complex with no P5P, folic acid, CyCbl or HyCbl. I had already eliminated excessive amounts of B1, B2, B3 and inositol. The "best" B-complexes may not be right for us I take injectable MeCbl, 3x10mg SC daily. I didn't have to change my testosterone at all. My doc was fascinated..
 

Freddd

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@Freddd
Something else I just noticed you said, b12 creates more need for more folate? So by increasing methyl b12, I’m going to need more methylfolate? Wouldn’t it be best to try to find the lowest possible dose that provides the brightening (which should be enough for healing as we’ll, correct?) and then just titrate up the folate from there? It sounds like I might induce a need for supplemental potassium when if I just went slower on the increases, I could prevent that need? Like I said earlier, being on an angiotensin receptor blocker already creates a situation of potassium retention and hyperkalemia side effects (death!) sound just as bad as hypokalemia symptoms!
Also, with these small doses I’m using, even though it might take a year or more, could they eventually correct a deficiency? I understand it might prolong symptoms, but I’m just wondering if it’s possible...
"Something else I just noticed you said, b12 creates more need for more folate? So by increasing methyl b12, I’m going to need more methylfolate? " - There is not that kind of reaction. The reaction you feel with MeCbl is improved functioning of the nervous system and the paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms that come to dominate until one takes enough methylfolate. That allows cells to be generally made instead of aborted at folate and causing skin lesions in the epithelial tissue, and IBS, and lesions throughout the digestive system and other epithelial tissue. The skin can be healing while the muscles and heart muscles and nervous system are deteriorating are deteriorating. In order to get all compartment healing, one has to be absorbing 3-5 mg and for the CNS to get some healing some people need a threshold amount of at least 7.5mg. Low doses don't penetrate deeply before they are rapidly removed from circulation into the urine. Initial serum half life is 20-50 minutes. In 24 hours 98% is excreted unchanged. In 2 days 99% is excreted in 2 days, unchanged.

As you increase the dose and get the AdoCbl-Carnitine balanced and working along with enough MeCbl-methylfolate, the whole body is able to heal many different tissues. The typical mortality rate from congestive heart failure is 80% die within 10 years of diagnosis. I'm now 25 years post diagnosis. I don't have congestive heart failure any more. When I got up to 15mg of methylfolate I lost 45 pounds of water in 30 days, about half of what needed to go. A while later I got the l-carnitine titrated to maybe 125mg and suddenly another 45 pounds of water pealed off. I also started making new muscle to replace atrophied muscle, 50 pounds worth in 6 months and lost 40-50 pounds of fat at the same time. I became a sinker in the pool instead of a floater.

I don't have edema any more. I don't have hundreds of symptoms of FMS, CFS, MCS, MCS, hypersensitive everything. I had some liver damage from antibiotic during the copper deficiency. I have subacute combined degeneration from B12 deficiency. Much of the damaged nerves work ok as long as the high level of MeCbl is maintained.

"Also, with these small doses I’m using, even though it might take a year or more, could they eventually correct a deficiency? I understand it might prolong symptoms, but I’m just wondering if it’s possible.." - The longer you keepo the refeeding symptoms going the more damage and misery you will have. It never ends until you get enough to stop more damage. There is a reason they thought there were no healthy adult survivors and they were all in nursing homes with severe neurological damage for their whole life.. I was able to have a normal life within 3 years though still a ways from decent health. The copper deficiency almost put me in a wheel chair. The B12 deficiency and folate deficiency almost put me in a wheelchair. The congestive heart failure almost killed me. Do you understand that most of the folate deficiencies can be gone in 2 weeks including IBS . The response is very rapid if you take enough of these things as they are mostly functional deficiencies that do damage over time. It will never heal and do more damage if you leave them as deficiency symptoms.

It also got rid of 90% of all the many pains, most of them caused by prolonged deficiency.

The potassium isn't taken in arbitrary amounts. It is taken in response to sudden new or old symptoms, like severe leg cramps in the middle of the night, hands so cramped I cant hold a pen or knife. There is no danger of overdose. If you don't have responsive symptoms you don't take any. After a while you learn to keep it barely enough. Likde the other muscle spasms, your heart is subject to that too with irregularities. This is the one that can kill you quickly. You can't heal without making tissue. You have to have the potassium to build tissue from blood to cardiac muscle.
 
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GreenMachineX

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@Freddd
Ok. So, how do I know I have enough b12 before starting titrating the folate? Is it different for everyone? For example, had about 500mcg methylcobalamin today and 250mcg adenosylcobalamin this morning. Could in my case that be enough because of the strong responses I’m getting or are you suggesting I increase b12 even more before adding in milligrams of folate? And how much folate do you begin I start with?

Couple of notes that might influence the dosages you suggest. I still have a lot of muscle from being a bodybuilder and weigh 220. I can tell I’m holding a little water, but nothing like you had. I can also handle 300mg at least l-carnitine fumarate 3 times a day as I was using that not long ago. What dosages of both do you recommend to start with?

Last question, it really seems like muscle tightness and palpitations are my first induced folate deficiency symptoms, and as it gets worse, angular cheilitis and others. Does this make sense?
 
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@Freddd

I have returned your protocol after a few years, and this time I have heeded your advice to 'go big' on the methylfolate. The first day I fell straight into the donut hole, which kind of confirmed that theory for me. When I hit 10mg of folate, angular chelitis and canker sores suddenly appeared, so I kept going. I think I took about 20mg that first day - surprised and a bit nervous, with some heart palpitations - but I did it again the next day, and I was fine. I was sure to keep up potassium and magnesium. I also take co-factors including zinc, copper, l-carnitine fumigate, boron and selenium.

So I have been taking high dose methylfolate now for about 2.5 months, and have had an amazing burst of energy which has seen me go back to running (gently) and walking every day. I am way less anxious, sleeping better, my digestion is slowly improving, allergy symptoms fewer. I am using the B12 oils, and use a combination of adenosyl and methyl.

A couple of observations. I have found I need a minimum of 30mg a day, often more. This feels like a lot, so I am seeking reassurance about that. I have found that I can only use small amounts of methyl B12 with this much folate, too much and it sends me to sleep and gives me folate deficiency symptoms, which for me are a bolt of anxiety, tight and painful back muscles, gastro issues, sore tongue, palpitations. Copper also uses up my folate, and I also have to compensate for taking 300mg or more of gabapentin every day for a nerve problem (hoping this goes). So I would say easily 30-40mg a day. I think I have been deficient all my life - both parents were - and so I must be finally giving my body what it needs. My question is - how long can I expect this high-dosing to be required? A year? Six months? Forever?

I am a bit surprised I need so much methylfolate relative to B12, as everything I have read here says to have more B12 than methylfolate. This really doesn't work with me, as I instantly pitch into methyl folate deficiency if I take a little too much B12. I think I can build it up over time, as (hopefully) my folate deficiency reduces.

I finally feel like I'm dealing with a root cause for 15 years of fatigue, food sensitivities, POTs, burning mouth syndrome and other quality-of-life reducing symptoms. Any tips for along the way?
 

Freddd

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@Freddd

I have returned your protocol after a few years, and this time I have heeded your advice to 'go big' on the methylfolate. The first day I fell straight into the donut hole, which kind of confirmed that theory for me. When I hit 10mg of folate, angular chelitis and canker sores suddenly appeared, so I kept going. I think I took about 20mg that first day - surprised and a bit nervous, with some heart palpitations - but I did it again the next day, and I was fine. I was sure to keep up potassium and magnesium. I also take co-factors including zinc, copper, l-carnitine fumigate, boron and selenium.

So I have been taking high dose methylfolate now for about 2.5 months, and have had an amazing burst of energy which has seen me go back to running (gently) and walking every day. I am way less anxious, sleeping better, my digestion is slowly improving, allergy symptoms fewer. I am using the B12 oils, and use a combination of adenosyl and methyl.

A couple of observations. I have found I need a minimum of 30mg a day, often more. This feels like a lot, so I am seeking reassurance about that. I have found that I can only use small amounts of methyl B12 with this much folate, too much and it sends me to sleep and gives me folate deficiency symptoms, which for me are a bolt of anxiety, tight and painful back muscles, gastro issues, sore tongue, palpitations. Copper also uses up my folate, and I also have to compensate for taking 300mg or more of gabapentin every day for a nerve problem (hoping this goes). So I would say easily 30-40mg a day. I think I have been deficient all my life - both parents were - and so I must be finally giving my body what it needs. My question is - how long can I expect this high-dosing to be required? A year? Six months? Forever?

I am a bit surprised I need so much methylfolate relative to B12, as everything I have read here says to have more B12 than methylfolate. This really doesn't work with me, as I instantly pitch into methyl folate deficiency if I take a little too much B12. I think I can build it up over time, as (hopefully) my folate deficiency reduces.

I finally feel like I'm dealing with a root cause for 15 years of fatigue, food sensitivities, POTs, burning mouth syndrome and other quality-of-life reducing symptoms. Any tips for along the way?
Hi Nicola,

I'm glad to hear of you success, Earl Nightingale - "Success is the progressive realization of a worthy ideal" .

Consider the copper using potassium. This confirms to you that the cell formation process s making it past all the methylation and ATP issues on the way to finishing making a cell. My copper induced 400mg more daily of potassium. Magnesium, Molybdenum, Vanadyl sulphate, boron and so on each increased my potassium need by 100-300mg. Selenium and Chromium GTF I have been taking for decades, so I wasn't deficient. These trace minerals come from the soils and a lot of soils have became poor in trace minerals from long term use.

There has been a really dirty trick played on all of us regarding folate need. Most people have no idea why the requirement of folic acid is suggested at 400-800 mcg. The reason it had that was not because of the amount of folate actually needed for the body to make cells, nobody knows that. It is being demonstrated right now by me and you and some others. The reason that limit was set was to prevent damage; SubAcute Combined Degeneration can be caused by too much folate forcing cell making and taking MeCbl from the brain to do it causing demyelinations (SACD). The other cause is that unconverted folic acid accumulates and causes damage. The maximum convertible by 50% of people is 800-1000 mcg. 30% can convert to a degree > 0 and < 800mcg and 20% can't use it at all. I had 70 mcg of folic acid in soy milk and I developed characteristic methyltrap lesions which went away 3 days after stopping the soy milk.

As folic acid CAN'T be effective to the maximum effective dose until MeCbl and Methylfolate came about that test could not be performed. My maximum needed to eliminate my last identified folate deficiency symptom is 45 mg. My partner takes 15mg. She is also 60% of body size so her dose per pound is higher than it might look. She had almost none of the stuff I had but she healed the sun damage on her face so much she was no longer eligible for a study of medications for the sun damage and the dermatologist said it "looks good". She also healed some sort of inflammatory bowel problem, not IBS, over about a year. These are "slow responding" responses.

So nobody has done this kind of study of supplying all the nutrients needed to heal and then seeing how much methylfolate is needed to eliminate all methylfolate deficiency symptoms.

"My question is - how long can I expect this high-dosing to be required? A year? Six months? Forever?"

For me so far it has been the rest of my life. However I only got to 45 mg last year. I wasted a lot of years and suffered more damage than I needed to.

It took about a year of eCbl to heal the nerve pain that I took Dilantin for and it worked well (before gabapentin). I was able to taper off the Dilantin after a year and the nerve pain was gone. I felt it gone before discontinuing the Dilantin..


"I am a bit surprised I need so much methylfolate relative to B12, as everything I have read here says to have more B12 than methylfolate. This really doesn't work with me, as I instantly pitch into methyl folate deficiency if I take a little too much B12. I think I can build it up over time, as (hopefully) my folate deficiency reduces. "


There is no set ratio of MeCbl to folate. MeCbl transfers methyl groups and basically acts like a catalyst. Cyanide "uses it up" as do some other tings. The normal turnover in the body is about 6 mcg for people not supplementing. However, that it starts more healing when you take more indicates you are keeping yourself partly deficiency. If you were to take a 5mg sublingual MeCbl and keep it under a lip for 45-120 minutes, it would have the effectiveness of a 1mg MeCbl injection. It might start up 10% more healing or more. However, it is not linear increase. Each doubling adds maybe another 10% starting at around 125mcg and it decreasing each doubling. Then, when you have everything healing that can, it is not nearly so variable, morte stable. Right now you are trying to juggle multiple things that all affect each other and everything is unstable. If you get to max effective dose in MeCbl, methylfolate the same, then the only accelerator is carnitine. AdoCbl tops off fast.

You need to take the zinc at a different meal than copper. There is competitive absorption. Too much zinc can cause copper deficiency. That is different from the competitive absorption. Most of the metals are part of that same system.

Also, I have found that once a week dosing of AdoCbl at sublingual 10mg dose, 45-120 minutes, causes less methyltrap than some amount every day.

As things then get settled down, suddenly folate deficiencies come back. For me and 4 others, that meant we had to change to a different form for 1-2 days to "reset" the sensitivity to that specific folate. So I use the MethylPro generic of Metafolin. When I lose sensitivity to it I use the Methylpro generic Quatrefolic for a day or two or longer, and then switch back with effectiveness of the original respored. It works in both directions.
 
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Freddd

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@Freddd
Ok. So, how do I know I have enough b12 before starting titrating the folate? Is it different for everyone? For example, had about 500mcg methylcobalamin today and 250mcg adenosylcobalamin this morning. Could in my case that be enough because of the strong responses I’m getting or are you suggesting I increase b12 even more before adding in milligrams of folate? And how much folate do you begin I start with?

Couple of notes that might influence the dosages you suggest. I still have a lot of muscle from being a bodybuilder and weigh 220. I can tell I’m holding a little water, but nothing like you had. I can also handle 300mg at least l-carnitine fumarate 3 times a day as I was using that not long ago. What dosages of both do you recommend to start with?

Last question, it really seems like muscle tightness and palpitations are my first induced folate deficiency symptoms, and as it gets worse, angular cheilitis and others. Does this make sense?
Hi GreenMachineX,

"it really seems like muscle tightness and palpitations are my first induced folate deficiency symptoms, and as it gets worse, angular cheilitis and others. Does this make sense?"

It sure does. People tend to have the same "starting folate deficiency" symptoms time after time.

On the dosages, you have already started these things. What makes it unstable is that more of any of them can affect the others. If MeCbl is brought to maximum, where there is no further change when increased, the amount of change of each doubling drops rapidly while you are doing it. Soon you can't feel MeCbl at all. One feels differences. So when you have a 1% of needed level and you take enough to raise it to 10%, it is going to be felt as a huge change. When you are at 25% saturation and increase it to 50% you can hardly feel it. Same with increasing from 50% to 100%.. All these things can disappear in days or weeks if you titrate it up; So if you do 250 mcg 4 times a day, pretty soon it will take 1mg 4x per day and at around 5 x 1000 mcg sublingual all effects will disappear but healing continues and so does need for potassium and mfolate. You won't know what the maximum l-carnitine effectiveness dose is until first you get to max MeCbl, then max methylfolate and that will need to be adjusted as you add other things and then AdoCbl , and most folks do better with 10mg sublingual once a week and it doesn't cause daily methyltrap that way. Then when the first 3 are at max effect equilibrium the only accelerator is l-carnitine. Then you can tell what your most effective dose is at. And bringing that up to most effective will put you into healing most all chambers.

My maximum effective l-carnitine is 500mg generally. Because of certain problems I increased to 1000 mg becasue of doctor's suggestions on my liver problems. The liver has half the body's B12, almost all AdoCbl and carnitine both affect fat types and deposition.
 

GreenMachineX

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@Freddd
Thank you for all the help so far. I have a few more things though before I’m 100% confident in what I’m doing. Today, I went with 166mcg methylcobalamin and 266mcg methylfolate (no creatine or adenosylcobalamin today) with breakfast and lunch, and shortly after the breakfast dose, I was lightheaded and getting dizzy very easily, but my muscles loosened up and my angular cheilitis started healing. Then I took my blood pressure and the familiar palpitations and anxiety took off so it was 158/79, but through calm breathing and relaxing it came down to 135/80. There’s also a chance my at home monitor reads 10 points high on both systolic and diastolic though so I’m not TOO concerned (except a very short anxiety attack).

After that, I was convinced I was in Methyl trap so I took 200mcg methylcobalamin a couple hours after lunch and the dizziness and lightheadedness went away. But, my angular cheilitis and muscles tightened back up. Am I swinging back and forth between Methyl trap and donut hole folate deficiency?

I’ll be increasing the dose of everything tomorrow, but you were right, I don’t feel each bump in methylcobalamin anymore. 200mcg methylcobalamin 2 weeks ago felt like 5 cups of coffee with a histamine blast. Today, all it did was erase symptoms. Guess I should keep adding more though before increasing folate? And don’t start creatine or adenosylcobalamin until the angular cheilitis and palpitations are gone right?

I figured something else out recently. I was iron deficient last year (ferritin 7) and took Thorne’s Ferrasorb 3 times a day while using Life Extension’s 2 Per Day at 1 cap a day, which totaled 2.2 mg methylfolate and 1mg methylcobalamin, and all symptoms eventually went away that I thought were iron deficiency, but really Methyl trap (I think). I’m not sure if it was folate deficiency or Methyl trap back when I just used 1 cap of LEF 2 Per Day, which amounted to 200mcg methylfolate and 150mcg methylcobalamin, but it also had 37.5mg thiamine which I’ve read you say increases folate need. Any thoughts on any of that?

Am I understanding this correctly: taking methylcobalamin doesn’t cause the symptoms of paradoxical and induced folate deficiency, but brings out the symptoms (that we’re just hiding) to indicate a need for more folate?
 

Freddd

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I’ll be increasing the dose of everything tomorrow, but you were right, I don’t feel each bump in methylcobalamin anymore. 200mcg methylcobalamin 2 weeks ago felt like 5 cups of coffee with a histamine blast. Today, all it did was erase symptoms. Guess I should keep adding more though before increasing folate? And don’t start creatine or adenosylcobalamin until the angular cheilitis and palpitations are gone right?
THe neurological brightening of MeCbl can provide quite a powerful experience. The histamine appears to be generated becasue of refeeding symptom of deficient methylfolate OR severe methyltrap Palpitations can be low potassium most often in my experience.. I also had a lot of them when I took b-complex once a day and it wasn't the folate with that. What other symptoms do they come with? It's patterns and combinations that tells the tale. Increase the folate to get rid of the refeeding symptoms. Then there will usually be an increased set of low serum potassium symptoms.

Am I understanding this correctly: taking methylcobalamin doesn’t cause the symptoms of paradoxical and induced folate deficiency, but brings out the symptoms (that we’re just hiding) to indicate a need for more folate?
The MeCbl and methylfolate do the chromosome duplication, if they are both there. If the "process" reaches for the MeCbl and it isn't there, the process causes the methylfolate to be kicked out of the cell and fails with methylfolate deficiency (methyltrap) at the cell level, more random. With low methylfolate it is compartment wide symptoms. If there is any cobalamin but MeCbl there is methyltrap and mfolate fail. If there is MeCbl but no methylfolate, it is a mfolate fail but not methyltrap. If more cells get started with with the methylfolate than can have MeCbl to support, there is lots of methyltrap and potentially dozens of folate deficiencies in the compartments without enough MeCbl. More MeCbl fixes methyltrap. If it is methylfolate deficiency then more methylfolate. So small doses of methylfolate produces massive amounts of paradoxical folate deficiency.

The first fail stops the cell generation. So if you fail at MeCbl or folate, you get a folate symptoms. If it makes the way through those and fails on copper, it still stops the cell and looks like a folate fail except the pattern of symptoms is different.. So methyltrap has its pattern of symptoms, low methylfolate has a different pattern and copper has it's own pattern. However, the copper deficiency can put you in a wheelchair faster and has a pattern of more serious symptoms. And that can happen well above the bottom of "in-range" serum level.

It's "paradoxical" folate deficiency because there is "normal" or even "high" "serum level yet lots of folate deficiency symptoms. So one can have methyltrap and/or methylfolate deficiency and still have enough healing going on in some compartments at the same time to have low potassium, which doesn't stop the cell from being made but interrupts other things. Potassium deficiency symptoms can happen at the same time as any of the cell making methylation or ATP fails.

I doing the best I can describing it and it's approximate at best. It's complicated..
 

GreenMachineX

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@Freddd
The palpitations or chest flutters, or pounding heart (or combination of all) never comes with muscle cramps or twitches like what I’ve read about with hypokalemia. 6 months ago, when I stopped everything, I had hamstring tightness so bad when I sat in my truck I got pins and needles, and my potassium was 4.5. I don’t believe I’ve induced low potassium yet because isn’t actual cramps the first symptom? The bizarre thing is the palpitations only seem to hit at night.
 
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Hi Nicola,

I'm glad to hear of you success, Earl Nightingale - "Success is the progressive realization of a worthy ideal" .

Consider the copper using potassium. This confirms to you that the cell formation process s making it past all the methylation and ATP issues on the way to finishing making a cell. My copper induced 400mg more daily of potassium. Magnesium, Molybdenum, Vanadyl sulphate, boron and so on each increased my potassium need by 100-300mg. Selenium and Chromium GTF I have been taking for decades, so I wasn't deficient. These trace minerals come from the soils and a lot of soils have became poor in trace minerals from long term use.

There has been a really dirty trick played on all of us regarding folate need. Most people have no idea why the requirement of folic acid is suggested at 400-800 mcg. The reason it had that was not because of the amount of folate actually needed for the body to make cells, nobody knows that. It is being demonstrated right now by me and you and some others. The reason that limit was set was to prevent damage; SubAcute Combined Degeneration can be caused by too much folate forcing cell making and taking MeCbl from the brain to do it causing demyelinations (SACD). The other cause is that unconverted folic acid accumulates and causes damage. The maximum convertible by 50% of people is 800-1000 mcg. 30% can convert to a degree > 0 and < 800mcg and 20% can't use it at all. I had 70 mcg of folic acid in soy milk and I developed characteristic methyltrap lesions which went away 3 days after stopping the soy milk.

As folic acid CAN'T be effective to the maximum effective dose until MeCbl and Methylfolate came about that test could not be performed. My maximum needed to eliminate my last identified folate deficiency symptom is 45 mg. My partner takes 15mg. She is also 60% of body size so her dose per pound is higher than it might look. She had almost none of the stuff I had but she healed the sun damage on her face so much she was no longer eligible for a study of medications for the sun damage and the dermatologist said it "looks good". She also healed some sort of inflammatory bowel problem, not IBS, over about a year. These are "slow responding" responses.

So nobody has done this kind of study of supplying all the nutrients needed to heal and then seeing how much methylfolate is needed to eliminate all methylfolate deficiency symptoms.

"My question is - how long can I expect this high-dosing to be required? A year? Six months? Forever?"

For me so far it has been the rest of my life. However I only got to 45 mg last year. I wasted a lot of years and suffered more damage than I needed to.

It took about a year to heal the nerve pain that I took Dilantin for and it worked well (before gabapentin). I was able to taper off the Dilantin after a year and the nerve pain was gone. I felt it gone before discontinuing the Dilantin..


"I am a bit surprised I need so much methylfolate relative to B12, as everything I have read here says to have more B12 than methylfolate. This really doesn't work with me, as I instantly pitch into methyl folate deficiency if I take a little too much B12. I think I can build it up over time, as (hopefully) my folate deficiency reduces. "


There is no set ratio of MeCbl to folate. MeCbl transfers methyl groups and basically acts like a catalyst. Cyanide "uses it up" as do some other tings. The normal turnover in the body is about 6 mcg for people not supplementing. However, that it starts more healing when you take more indicates you are keeping yourself partly deficiency. If you were to take a 5mg sublingual MeCbl and keep it under a lip for 45-120 minutes, it would have the effectiveness of a 1mg MeCbl injection. It might start up 10% more healing or more. However, it is not linear increase. Each doubling adds maybe another 10% starting at around 125mcg and it decreasing each doubling. Then, when you have everything healing that can, it is not nearly so variable, morte stable. Right now you are trying to juggle multiple things that all affect each other and everything is unstable. If you get to max effective dose in MeCbl, methylfolate the same, then the only accelerator is carnitine. AdoCbl tops off fast.

You need to take the zinc at a different meal than copper. There is competitive absorption. Too much zinc can cause copper deficiency. That is different from the competitive absorption. Most of the metals are part of that same system.

Also, I have found that once a week dosing of AdoCbl at sublingual 10mg dose, 45-120 minutes, causes less methyltrap than some amount every day.

As things then get settled down, suddenly folate deficiencies come back. For me and 4 others, that meant we had to change to a different form for 1-2 days to "reset" the sensitivity to that specific folate. So I use the MethylPro generic of Metafolin. When I lose sensitivity to it I use the Methylpro generic Quatrefolic for a day or two or longer, and then switch back with effectiveness of the original respored. It works in both directions.

Thanks @Freddd . So I need to ask you a little more about folic acid and folate, because I am a little anxious about this (but not as much as I used to be, lol). You said that the maximum convertible by 50% of people is 800-1000 mcg of folic acid. I am taking folate - is all of that convertible? I am really using 30mg every day to heal a from-birth deficiency, renew cells and ferry B12 to where it needs to go? I get a little freaked out by this high dose and the possible link to cancer.

I am also worried I am not using enough B12. Since I have been taking high doses of folate, my foot has started going numb. This may be due to an old injury after which I noticed numbness anyway, but this has now spread. I am using the methyl B12 oil 2-3 times a day as well as adenosyl, but it doesn't seem to be having any effect on this numbness so far. Any more B12 and I run into folate deficiency symptoms, which are instant anxiety verging on panic attack, twitching, painful back muscles, palpitations. I don't know what would happen if I lowered my folate dose and just sat out the symptoms. The panic is the worst thing.

I read that copper deficiency symptoms mimic those of B12 deficiency, so I will increase my dose of that too. Magnesium and potassium are on board. I am also taking B2 to help with the B12 take-up.

thanks for any insight.

Nicola
 

GreenMachineX

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Thanks @Freddd

I am also worried I am not using enough B12. Since I have been taking high doses of folate, my foot has started going numb. This may be due to an old injury after which I noticed numbness anyway, but this has now spread. I am using the methyl B12 oil 2-3 times a day as well as adenosyl, but it doesn't seem to be having any effect on this numbness so far. Any more B12 and I run into folate deficiency symptoms, which are instant anxiety verging on panic attack, twitching, painful back muscles, palpitations. I don't know what would happen if I lowered my folate dose and just sat out the symptoms. The panic is the worst thing

thanks for any insight.

Nicola
@nicola
I’m running into the same exact symptoms when I increase b12! I’ve been experimenting with even higher doses today, and as it goes up, I get muscle twitches, back muscle tightness, but also light sensitivity yet I have plenty of energy and mood is great, but if I take more folate, I get too relaxed and lethargic. Not sure what to do.

My heart was pounding hardcore earlier so I took more folate, which took it away so I took more b12, then your same symptoms.
 
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@nicola
I’m running into the same exact symptoms when I increase b12! I’ve been experimenting with even higher doses today, and as it goes up, I get muscle twitches, back muscle tightness, but also light sensitivity yet I have plenty of energy and mood is great, but if I take more folate, I get too relaxed and lethargic. Not sure what to do.

My heart was pounding hardcore earlier so I took more folate, which took it away so I took more b12, then your same symptoms.
@GreenMachineX

You need more folate! I thought that from reading your first post. Hold the amount of B12 and increase folate. Be prepared for the donut hole and have potassium on hand!
 

GreenMachineX

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@GreenMachineX

You need more folate! I thought that from reading your first post. Hold the amount of B12 and increase folate. Be prepared for the donut hole and have potassium on hand!
@nicola
So I’m trying to understand the donut hole deficiency...taking folate will give me more folate deficiency symptoms (symptoms I never had) so I just need to take more?
 

Freddd

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@boo85

I apologize if Im hijacking your thread, thats not my intention

@Freddd

Thank you for taking the time to look over this for me. Im open minded to anything, I've just hit a brick wall in everything I've tried and either gotten nowhere or gotten worse
@Aerose91,

Can you tell me all about your responses of all kinds to MeCbl with as much detail as you can.? Combining that with the symptoms will tell al lot.
 

Freddd

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@nicola
So I’m trying to understand the donut hole deficiency...taking folate will give me more folate deficiency symptoms (symptoms I never had) so I just need to take more?
@GreenMachineX,

Folic acid, folinic acid (also calcium salts, calcium folinate, etc and similar things) and many vegetable folates do not work well or at all for some people. Sticking to folic acid for explanation.

Folic acid has 3 possibilities:
  1. doesn't work at all, blocks methylfolate competitively in distribution and causes low methylfolate symptoms,, refeeding syndrome symptoms caused by cell making attempts started with MeCbl.
  2. works a little, blocks methylfolate as in #1 and starts some healing in limited compartments and refeeding syndrome deficiency symp[toms in lots of compartments.
  3. works in limited way for 50% of people, causing refeeding syndrome in some compartments and healing in some.
  4. Folic and Folinic acid are very expensive for the body, requiring enzymes, methylation and ATP for the multiple steps of conversion.
  5. To make those enzymes, methylation and ATP require already extant MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate and L-carnitine. Same with CyCbl and HyCbl. So none of these official vitamins are immediately active without conversion, they are not self booting. All they do without the required DQ is give a person more deficiency symptoms.
  6. Methylfolate doesn't have to be converted. It is immediately effective. It can start reversing symptoms noticeable in an hour or two, in some compartments limited by dose. If all compartments are activated with a sufficient dose of methylfolate there are no refeeding syndrome induced folate deficiencies.This is the "donut hole" effect. Its a hole of non functioning folate surrounded by healing compartments. The different from folic acid is that first it is possible to take a dose that can be healing all folate deficiencies at the same time and mfolate doesn't block itself or itself cause deficiencies. The presence of folic acid can cause deficiency symptoms. The presence of methylfolate doesn't cause deficiency symptoms, just the absence of it.
So if somebody jumps in with 10mg of methylfolate instead of 400 mcg then instead of starting with relieving perhaps 10 symptoms to some degree and making 190 symptoms worse, it starts relieving maybe 150 symptoms and worsening or starting or not changing 50 deficiency symptoms, the "donut hole" as it were. These numbers are for example approximately based on my experience of it, They and the proportions, will differ by the person.