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Instantaneous effect from Methylfolate/B12?

sb4

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@Freddd Thanks for the information. I have bookmarked your post and intend to start messing around with this stuff again soon. I do have one more question.

I have had this weird symptom that only seems to have raised it's head when I messed around with folate or drank alcohol. With alcohol, for the next day or so I would have a quite bad aching pain in what feels like the bone of my lower left arm. I also noticed this would happen with high doses of folate. Have you ever come across something like this?

The only thing that I can think of is that alcohol stops the liver from releasing folate and since the bone marrow turns over so fast I am causing problems here that result in pain. Or perhaps that bone is being demineralised due to mineral deficiency. Or it is a blood flow issue. I tend to have problems with blood flow on my left arm and left leg.
 

GreenMachineX

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@Freddd
Going through all this again, I gave up on the methylation 4 months ago and restarted about 8 weeks ago. I’m at 300mcg b12 (half adeno and half Methyl) and ~500mcg methylfolate and ~300mcg folinic Acid and feeling really good overall and finally sleeping. I know these aren’t the doses you recommend but I will continue to ramp up slowly because it seems like I never get used to a big jump of methylcobalamin at a time but working up slowly I get used to another 50mcg at a time in about 5 days. I don’t have any folate deficiency symptoms and I don’t think any b12 deficiency symptoms. And definitely no potassium deficiency symptoms. But I do get an ectopic heart beat or palpitation a few times a day. But no histamine issues, great mood and memory, energy, bowels working perfectly. Would you still recommend I keep moving up until the point I don’t feel a difference in b12 dose changes?

I’m thinking the palpitations are a result of experimenting with a subpar magnesium so I’m going back to magnesium citrate which worked as of a month ago (if my theory is correct). My nails are growing finally, my skin is healing, my cuticles are still a mess though (unsure if related?). Any thoughts on any of this?
 

Freddd

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@Freddd
Going through all this again, I gave up on the methylation 4 months ago and restarted about 8 weeks ago. I’m at 300mcg b12 (half adeno and half Methyl) and ~500mcg methylfolate and ~300mcg folinic Acid and feeling really good overall and finally sleeping. I know these aren’t the doses you recommend but I will continue to ramp up slowly because it seems like I never get used to a big jump of methylcobalamin at a time but working up slowly I get used to another 50mcg at a time in about 5 days. I don’t have any folate deficiency symptoms and I don’t think any b12 deficiency symptoms. And definitely no potassium deficiency symptoms. But I do get an ectopic heart beat or palpitation a few times a day. But no histamine issues, great mood and memory, energy, bowels working perfectly. Would you still recommend I keep moving up until the point I don’t feel a difference in b12 dose changes?

I’m thinking the palpitations are a result of experimenting with a subpar magnesium so I’m going back to magnesium citrate which worked as of a month ago (if my theory is correct). My nails are growing finally, my skin is healing, my cuticles are still a mess though (unsure if related?). Any thoughts on any of this?
Hi GreenMachineX,

MeCbl, AdoCbl and l-methylfolate all work in pharmacokinetic compartments. So with 400 mcg of methylfolate, no actual symptoms would be cleared up and 200 will blossom out in terribleness. If you go in and look at symptoms in order affected by each and all of the various symptoms in the list you can get a better idea how they are grouped. So it goes something like this.And this is all about observing the making of cells. On the way to cells, which we can easily watch, and energy, but that is harder to judge becasue a lot of healing feels miserable. The effects of the first few days is change in symptoms for cells getting started, and on day 3 or 4 as the cells grow suddenly one runs out of nutrients, and which ones you are short of is an individual thing.

  1. External Epithelial cells, fast growing, lesions form fast and go away fast. Lots of things to work with usually in plain sight on skin, different ones improve with other compartments.
  2. Internal IBS
  3. peripheral nerves
  4. organs
  5. Muscles
  6. CSF-CNS, brain and cord
  7. cardiac muscle
  8. miscellaneous
At methyltrap symptoms (MeCbl deficiency) the symptoms is a specific subgroup of folate deficiency symptoms that has single cell granularity that is proportionate to the wrong kind of cobalamin occupying the spot that needs the MeCbl. So exposing liquid MeCbl for injections or sprays to light can cause 1% or more HyCbl, some people like me can't use HyCbl at all and it causes each cell it is in to fail.

The same lesions caused by MeCbl, then methylfolate, then lack of AdoCbl, and then L-carnitine and then copper but that is far more damaging from copper deficiency and very difficult to heal.

ONLY the first thing that stops a cell from finishing forming causes the "fail symptom". So that pimple like lesion forms on your scalp or cheek. It then heals with increased and maintained increased MeCbl clears it. Then in 3 days it comes back-. That time its is methylfolate. Maybe sores ar corner of mouth and nails also, and also for same reasons. I had high MCV all my like. Nothing affected it until I got to 20+ mg daily df methylfolate. Then it went down to 92 and then suddenly I have a new set of symptoms, came ould ones in new disguises and it was copper. This time as the copper dropped to <60 the MCV shot up to 102. Then it took copper to serum 80+ to get it back down to <93. One has to be SURE of enough MeCbl, AdoCbl, Methylfolate, L-carnitine, all other vitamins, each of which stops some of the same methylation because methylation is used in all cell making, but characteristic of the copper with the group of other symptoms and sureness all previous thiongs are adequate. If always dropping mecbl or methylfolate or potassium etc and never accumulate to full amount needed it will be a struggle forever. Order and sufficiency at each step is needed. I don't know of any other logic that gives effective results.
 

GreenMachineX

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@Freddd
So if I’m understanding correctly, I don’t get any of those symptoms or lesions or IBS with the dosages I’m using, so maybe my symptoms are related to something else entirely?

I have all those symptoms at lower dosages is it possible I’m using enough of both at the doses I use?
 
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Hi Critterina,

Well, in 2013 I took B12 without taking ANY folate, let alone methylfolate and I had a terrible time with it. I would shake in my sleep, wake up without feeling my arms (I suspect that could have been rapid healing which caused low potassium though - weak arms is a classic low potassium sign.) TERRIBLE anxiety bordering on manic. Just an all 'round bad time.

Then I took a long break and it was only when I started taking about 1/4 - 1/2 of my B12 dose in equivalent methylfolate that I was able to take B12 in "high" amounts, such as 250 - 500 mcg. May not seem like much, but that was progress for me. I think methylfolate was one of the keys to being able to take B12.
I'm having the same things, how much break did you have to do?
 

Freddd

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@Freddd
So if I’m understanding correctly, I don’t get any of those symptoms or lesions or IBS with the dosages I’m using, so maybe my symptoms are related to something else entirely?

I have all those symptoms at lower dosages is it possible I’m using enough of both at the doses I use?
Hi GreenMachineX,

Good question. It isn't that easy. There are many more items. These things we are talking about are one compartment which one might call epithelial fast dividing tissues. L-methylfolate is used in making ALL cells. For instance, one person I know had no "quick symptoms", instead it was all slow symptoms. Also,as you say,it often is invisible.The correct for the person l-carnitine helps neuroblasts and osteoblasts and others get started and helps generate ATP among other things. It is essential for healing in more compartments. Same with AdoCbl. A shortage of any of those when corrected will then kick off more folate deficiency symptoms and also more potassium need. MeCbl is step one. When it gets enough started then it needs l-methylfolate, then AdoCbl and then l-carnitine. It can be circles. Also, MeCbl gets maybe 50% of the possible healing started with the first 100-150 MeCbl of an effective brand is absorbed. When I did the N=1000 symptom history questionnaire development with a one hour interview during which they took a 1000 mcg sub-L or 5000 mcg and later direct A-B trials. Nobody can tell the difference between 5000 sub-l and 1000 mcg sub-L. For me, with under 2400 mcg or so, number of paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms increased and some symptoms decreased a little. In the 4 mg to 30 mg the number of affect symptoms decreased from 200 symptoms started with down to 5 or symptoms that were reducing intensity. At that time MCV stopped being affected by methylfolate and suddenly shot uo to over 100 becasue of copper deficiency. MCV was a 3 month indicator of serum copper level at < 93 with 80+ serum copper and > 100+ MCV with copper =< 60. The problem is that copper may be damaging your connective tissues and nerves for years before recognizing copper deficiency. Three docs have said how I look better in the past 3 months in which I had an increase from 82 to 91 copper. I am feeling better but have the damage for years of poor absorption and refeeding syndrome, which is made worse by poor absorption.

For you the question is "where is the cell making stalling". Look for symptoms to add to your list that are not on these lists. They might point the way. Everybody seems to have some peculiar to them responses or response order. Only you can map your varying symp[to=m s. The better you map them the sooner you will spot it over and over again. It took me about 10 years to complete my titration of METHYLFOLATE, 7 years to figure it out and 3 years to finish the trials and seeing what it did to my periodic folate deficiency problem.

Go to the list of all the symptoms and of the refeeding symptoms [url]https://www.quora.com/Has-someone-used-a-MeCbl-treatment-for-patients-or-has-been-treated-with-MeCbl-What-for-and-what-were-the-outcomes/answer/Fred-Davis-7?__filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__snid3__=1808215186[/url]

"SYMPTOMS LIST 01/03/2014 V 1.0

Copyright 2014, Frederick D. Davis, aka Fred Davis, aka Freddd, aka Davis Software Development, copied from original manuscript.

In this post this is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients. However, I have used no quotes from any source. This list of symptoms is derived from the an N=1000 questionnaire development. These are the symptoms that responded to the nutrients as listed. I did the 1000 symptoms histories myself. These are the some of the results from my 30,000 + hours of work for my

These symptoms responded almost entirely or entirely with basics 5 star MeCbl – methylcobalamin – Methylb12 - Mb12 - Mecobl . Many started improving in hours. Others took 9 months to correct....."

"Following are the groups of induced deficiency symptoms when starting with the Deadlock Quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-carnitine fumarate).

Version 2.42 11/06/2018 A work in process, incomplete, limited testing, people come in many variations, use at your own risk.

Copyright 2018, Frederick D. Davis, aka Fred Davis, aka Freddd, copied from original manuscript.

INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response. The first usual notable symptoms occur on typically the third day of starting a previously insufficient nutrient with normally feeling or seeing the changes within minutes to hours. From MecBL I had over 30 symptoms respond in the first few hours with blow my socks off intensity with neurological startup and potassium deficiency on the 3rd day along with increasing folate deficiencies that took years to figure out. For instance it was noted in the 50s with injections of B12 with potassium deficiency (hypokalemia) as a side effect. It is dangerous and can be unpredictably fatal if not corrected and the cause is continued. When they say people are dying in Syria after they have been starved and given food, they are often suffering REFEEDING SYNDROME. When previous symptoms return that can also indicate a developing deficiency that started hindering cell formation. ..."
 
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@Freddd fantastic thread.

I've been taking 5mg MeCbl injections 3x a day and that seems to be the point where I don't feel a noticeable difference.

I have noticed though that my methylfolate needs have gone from 15mg -> 60mg in a pretty short period of time and the normal dose response I have been getting seems to last less time.

I don't necessarily mind taking whatever amount I need, but the fact that it seems like it's having less and less effect as the dose requirements go up has me a bit puzzled. You'd think I needed TONS of potassium a day at 60mg of folate, but a modest amount is seemingly been more than enough.

FWIW also taking 10-20mg AdCbl a week and 1000mg L-Carnitine Fumarate a day.
 
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@Freddd fantastic thread.

I've been taking 5mg MeCbl injections 3x a day and that seems to be the point where I don't feel a noticeable difference.

I have noticed though that my methylfolate needs have gone from 15mg -> 60mg in a pretty short period of time and the normal dose response I have been getting seems to last less time.
@Bluelude1 That's a lot of injected B12! If you prefer methylB12 for injections then you may be interested in Dr Neubrander's work (albeit with autistic children) in which he strongly advocates more highly concentrated forms of methylB12 for injection than weaker. See his "Methyl-B12: Doing It Right" 2007.

If you actually require all that much B12 then perhaps you have an uptake problem in which genetic problems mean you respond poorly to any amount of B12. I don't mean the MTHFR defect but instead the so-called cbl-X class of genetic defects. This is little discussed but can be hugely significant for a person. Many such sufferers are said to respond inadequately to any amount of B12 and will require other supplements (such as TMG betaine) to circumvent faltering B12-related pathways.

There are a number of feedback loops in the biochemical pathways which complicate the picture, such as raised SAM-e

Looking at a wider picture, it's possible your high dose methylB12 and high dose methylfolate are partly acting as antioxidants to improve organ performance which then gives a general improvement. I had something like this and found other antioxidants also provided a similar benefit to supplements I was taking for B12 deficiency. Perversely, other external toxicity caused my liver/kidney to decline in performance so much that even my B12 supplements later caused a distinct adverse load. Similar situations are reported in the case of alcoholic liver disease and may well be present to a lesser extent in non-alcoholics, and also in other organs. For example, see https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/86/1/14/4754389

HTH. Good luck.
 
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MeCbl, AdoCbl and l-methylfolate all work in pharmacokinetic compartments. So with 400 mcg of methylfolate, no actual symptoms would be cleared up and 200 will blossom out in terribleness.
@Freddd One of the dangers I found in following such a theory which, as I understand it is based on anecdotal obervation, was that higher does of methylfolate failed to resolve a folate trap because methionine synthase was too weak to process the methyl groups and methyl folate kept building up and dumping without any prospect of resolution.

I found no amount of additional B12 could resolve a weakened methionine synthase reaction (likely caused by a pathogenic MTR and/or an MTRR defect). The solution was to open up the BHMT pathway and also to lower any residual homocysteine by strengthening the transsulfuration pathway. I seem to recall Rich Konynenburg at one time touched upon these pathways with you. In addition, adenoB12 problems may require supplements like biotin to limit the production of toxic by-products originally caused by raised methylmalonic acid.

We are each different and one-size-fits-all prescriptive solutions don't always work where the difference is significant.
 

Freddd

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@Freddd fantastic thread.

I've been taking 5mg MeCbl injections 3x a day and that seems to be the point where I don't feel a noticeable difference.

I have noticed though that my methylfolate needs have gone from 15mg -> 60mg in a pretty short period of time and the normal dose response I have been getting seems to last less time.

I don't necessarily mind taking whatever amount I need, but the fact that it seems like it's having less and less effect as the dose requirements go up has me a bit puzzled. You'd think I needed TONS of potassium a day at 60mg of folate, but a modest amount is seemingly been more than enough.

FWIW also taking 10-20mg AdCbl a week and 1000mg L-Carnitine Fumarate a day.

Hi Bluelude1,

I am feeling much better and able to start to do a few things. It was a surprise. I have had to switch between Metafolin to Quatrefolic when one no longer works. A week at most on the one I wasn't using seems to clear up the specific pathway it uses, another kind of bottleneck.

As I heal, pathways change. I had to change to change from a minimal B-complex to a B-right type b-complex, with 400 mcg of Quatrefolic might be doing something, or larger amounts or more various vitamirs of b-vitamins might be needed becasue of my age, or various pathways have changed. In any case methylation increased and I feel much better. I and others have also had l-carnitine xxxx that we each needed changed, for me, when I got my copper closer back up to mid-range from years of deficiency, to needing a different caritine and then it changed again to any of the varieties of l-carnitine appears to work

I have had a major change over the last 2.5 years, micronutrient amounts of Lithium orotate titrating from 5mg to 20 mg. According to some obscure papers I read TransCobalamin Receptor-Li which supplies the CNS with cob[ii], the catalytic form, can be blocked by fluorides until more lithium can clean it out.. Now, when it is partly done, still improving the homeostasis of minerals and other things which have never worked right for most of my life.


I used to take 30 mg of MeCbl daily as 3x10mg sc. Now I take 7.5mg sc injection once a week, and sublingual AdoCbl 10-mg sublingual, instead of 210mg weekly of injected mecbl and the same 10mg of adocbl weekly. I no longer have radically unsteady serum potassium. I no longer get gastroparesis needing Reglan twice daily to be able to eat.

With the injections previously, an awful amount of B12 was excreted in the urine within an hour. Now, it appears that NONE at all comes out in the urine for at least 12 hours and then a whole surge comes out, after a weekly injection, NEVER happened like that before until recently. In that period I can sometimes feel a surge of cob[ii] (6 stars] as it hits my brain.

The first time I tried the MeCbl I had 5 minute response sublingually. I and others have had 5 minute response to steak held in the mouth sublingually. I have wondered about that for 17 years. It would appear that TCR-Li forms in the oral mucosa in at least some places and grabs (Li, VERY REACTIVE, very low electronegative and fluorine is the most electronegative so the two bind strongly (high heat of formation). It appears that only more Li can clean the fluorine out of the TCR. In the meat the B12 is wrapped for delivery in TCR of some kind it appears as it can be delivered in the brain in 5 minutes.. The hapticorn (HTC1 formerly) is in the saliva and appears to be the transfer mechanism which is what it has always been said to do. I have not had much or any success in absorbing B12 by swallowing it. That doesn't appear to work for me.

A paper mentioned that TCR-Li also forms in the kidneys and appears to be an important function in retaining B12 in the body, picked up in the kidneys, stripped of ligand (cob[ii] maybe and returned to serum instead of urine. My eGFR has gone form 69% to 79% in 3 months with the TCR-Li or some form growing in my kidneys. My liver has continued to heal from the low copper antibiotic damage during the last 9 months. While these were healing very little else appeared to be doing so.

Lacking any of the micronutrients like copper, can lead to serious damage in special cells, like liver, kideney, nerves, etc..

Looking at public health information lithium is often gotten from water and food, if it is in the local water where things are grown. It is blocked by fluoride in the body from working. It was a precarious balance and then dental fluoride came to town and that was the end of normal B12 processing for me and a growing number of people. This hit mostly the CNS and the ability to retain B12. Without it serum half life of 20 minutes starts with absorption of injection and promptly excretes it. There were a few odd studies that came up with 12+ hours serum half life and no explanation. I wrote models of B12 pharmacokinetics, adopted from opioid serum models, taper plans for all kinds of meds, very different. As a consultant for group healthcare I designed and wrote various models for 30 years as well as HMO/insurance software for running the plans and handling claims.

It took me 2 years titrating from 5mg Li Orotate (tried Li tartrate too, no difference I could see) to build the TCR-Li to effective levels and it suddenly turned on one day. I have no idea how widespread TCRE-Li might be in the body. My experience is that my body doesn't absorb B12 in the gut. With AdoCbl I get more absorption in the mouth than ever before, enough to see in the urine AFTER 4-12 hours, again never experienced before that much or delay in the urine. It used to take 30mg of AdoCbl to see in the urine by the time I finished absorbing it. So the sublingual AdoCbl recharges the TCR-Li identically to the MeCbl but in the body it can cause methyltrap in place of mecbl of taken daily for instance. So my brain appears to get cob[ii] now, but my body mostly gets MeCbl and AdoCbl which work fine in the right places but does not replace cob[ii] without errors.

HYPOTHESIS - It appears that having a certain "level" of TCR-Li supplying cob[ii] prevents CyCbl, HyCbl and others thereby preventing methyltrap (demyelination for instance in brain and cord). U still get it in the body from time to time.

The BIG difference with TCR-Li is that it appears to control or affect control of homeostasis and I no longer have refeeding changing every time anything happens. It is much smoother and gentler. TCR-Li . Multiple people have been doing this for a couple of years and all have changes like this, but many variations.

If a person is taking basics and the deadlock quartet, and methylation isn't started satisfactorily secondary things; SAM-e, methionine, biotin, TMG, ribose, Vit D may get it started well. The CAUSES of all our bottlenecks are different and they change each time we fix something or exhaust a pathway.

One of the things that has happened, I now lack most of the hypersensitivity I used to have when I had insufficient TCR-Li, which also stores cob[ii] in the CNS and perhaps elsewhere. Now I can't tell the difference between 0 star and 5 star MeCbl, it's all the same to the TCR-Li.

An important thing to keep in mind. Each cell being made only fails ONCE, on the first thing that causes the cell not to be finished EXCEPT in certain cases where there is "hyper-methylation" by folic acid in epithelial tissues lacking B12 and methylfolate and they are faulty and sometimes become cancerous.

Failures look the same, lesions of some kind in most tissues like acne or angular cheilitis or split fingers. These can happen because of cob[ii] or mecbl lack, methylfolate lack, con[ii] or AdoCbl lack or lack of l-carnitine or other things, in order the things are used in growing cells. Copper, when it fails can do serious damage internally and exhibit the same appearance of lack of folate or B12 externally. And there are chains of things. Lack of copper can cause an iron and other metals bottleneck for instance.

Lithium appears to be key in balancing these things out and triaging the compartments for healing without necessarily triggering deficiency symptoms in other compartments such as those seen while titrating methylfolate from start to the last folate deficiency symptom or bottleneck, for me that is 45 mg daily and that was MCV. Then Copper deficiency made MCV go up faster and more than anything else. Learning ones patterns is hard enough. Lithium changes that pattern tremendously over some years, maybe faster.

If a person has enough TCR-Li they might experience that 5 minute absorption. Without it they appear to not experience that.

It took me about 5-6 years after starting MeCbl until I could no longer have 5 minute effect. It seems that I finally ran out of lithium. I was having a lot of dental problems (low copper, low boron) and having lots of fluoride treatments and likely the ground and water had less lithium than ever. Here the lithium all washed into the Great Salt Lake with flood irrigation of snow melt, very pure water.

It also appears that if cobalamin is seen in urine in an hour or two after an injection a person may not have sufficient TCR-Li where it is needed. Also lots of hypersensitivity to nutrients can be present.


Be well.
 
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Hi Bluelude1,

I am feeling much better and able to start to do a few things. It was a surprise. I have had to switch between Metafolin to Quatrefolic when one no longer works. A week at most on the one I wasn't using seems to clear up the specific pathway it uses, another kind of bottleneck.

As I heal, pathways change. I had to change to change from a minimal B-complex to a B-right type b-complex, with 400 mcg of Quatrefolic might be doing something, or larger amounts or more various vitamirs of b-vitamins might be needed becasue of my age, or various pathways have changed. In any case methylation increased and I feel much better. I and others have also had l-carnitine xxxx that we each needed changed, for me, when I got my copper closer back up to mid-range from years of deficiency, to needing a different caritine and then it changed again to any of the varieties of l-carnitine appears to work

I have had a major change over the last 2.5 years, micronutrient amounts of Lithium orotate titrating from 5mg to 20 mg. According to some obscure papers I read TransCobalamin Receptor-Li which supplies the CNS with cob[ii], the catalytic form, can be blocked by fluorides until more lithium can clean it out.. Now, when it is partly done, still improving the homeostasis of minerals and other things which have never worked right for most of my life.


I used to take 30 mg of MeCbl daily as 3x10mg sc. Now I take 7.5mg sc injection once a week, and sublingual AdoCbl 10-mg sublingual, instead of 210mg weekly of injected mecbl and the same 10mg of adocbl weekly. I no longer have radically unsteady serum potassium. I no longer get gastroparesis needing Reglan twice daily to be able to eat.

With the injections previously, an awful amount of B12 was excreted in the urine within an hour. Now, it appears that NONE at all comes out in the urine for at least 12 hours and then a whole surge comes out, after a weekly injection, NEVER happened like that before until recently. In that period I can sometimes feel a surge of cob[ii] (6 stars] as it hits my brain.

The first time I tried the MeCbl I had 5 minute response sublingually. I and others have had 5 minute response to steak held in the mouth sublingually. I have wondered about that for 17 years. It would appear that TCR-Li forms in the oral mucosa in at least some places and grabs (Li, VERY REACTIVE, very low electronegative and fluorine is the most electronegative so the two bind strongly (high heat of formation). It appears that only more Li can clean the fluorine out of the TCR. In the meat the B12 is wrapped for delivery in TCR of some kind it appears as it can be delivered in the brain in 5 minutes.. The hapticorn (HTC1 formerly) is in the saliva and appears to be the transfer mechanism which is what it has always been said to do. I have not had much or any success in absorbing B12 by swallowing it. That doesn't appear to work for me.

A paper mentioned that TCR-Li also forms in the kidneys and appears to be an important function in retaining B12 in the body, picked up in the kidneys, stripped of ligand (cob[ii] maybe and returned to serum instead of urine. My eGFR has gone form 69% to 79% in 3 months with the TCR-Li or some form growing in my kidneys. My liver has continued to heal from the low copper antibiotic damage during the last 9 months. While these were healing very little else appeared to be doing so.

Lacking any of the micronutrients like copper, can lead to serious damage in special cells, like liver, kideney, nerves, etc..

Looking at public health information lithium is often gotten from water and food, if it is in the local water where things are grown. It is blocked by fluoride in the body from working. It was a precarious balance and then dental fluoride came to town and that was the end of normal B12 processing for me and a growing number of people. This hit mostly the CNS and the ability to retain B12. Without it serum half life of 20 minutes starts with absorption of injection and promptly excretes it. There were a few odd studies that came up with 12+ hours serum half life and no explanation. I wrote models of B12 pharmacokinetics, adopted from opioid serum models, taper plans for all kinds of meds, very different. As a consultant for group healthcare I designed and wrote various models for 30 years as well as HMO/insurance software for running the plans and handling claims.

It took me 2 years titrating from 5mg Li Orotate (tried Li tartrate too, no difference I could see) to build the TCR-Li to effective levels and it suddenly turned on one day. I have no idea how widespread TCRE-Li might be in the body. My experience is that my body doesn't absorb B12 in the gut. With AdoCbl I get more absorption in the mouth than ever before, enough to see in the urine AFTER 4-12 hours, again never experienced before that much or delay in the urine. It used to take 30mg of AdoCbl to see in the urine by the time I finished absorbing it. So the sublingual AdoCbl recharges the TCR-Li identically to the MeCbl but in the body it can cause methyltrap in place of mecbl of taken daily for instance. So my brain appears to get cob[ii] now, but my body mostly gets MeCbl and AdoCbl which work fine in the right places but does not replace cob[ii] without errors.

HYPOTHESIS - It appears that having a certain "level" of TCR-Li supplying cob[ii] prevents CyCbl, HyCbl and others thereby preventing methyltrap (demyelination for instance in brain and cord). U still get it in the body from time to time.

The BIG difference with TCR-Li is that it appears to control or affect control of homeostasis and I no longer have refeeding changing every time anything happens. It is much smoother and gentler. TCR-Li . Multiple people have been doing this for a couple of years and all have changes like this, but many variations.

If a person is taking basics and the deadlock quartet, and methylation isn't started satisfactorily secondary things; SAM-e, methionine, biotin, TMG, ribose, Vit D may get it started well. The CAUSES of all our bottlenecks are different and they change each time we fix something or exhaust a pathway.

One of the things that has happened, I now lack most of the hypersensitivity I used to have when I had insufficient TCR-Li, which also stores cob[ii] in the CNS and perhaps elsewhere. Now I can't tell the difference between 0 star and 5 star MeCbl, it's all the same to the TCR-Li.

An important thing to keep in mind. Each cell being made only fails ONCE, on the first thing that causes the cell not to be finished EXCEPT in certain cases where there is "hyper-methylation" by folic acid in epithelial tissues lacking B12 and methylfolate and they are faulty and sometimes become cancerous.

Failures look the same, lesions of some kind in most tissues like acne or angular cheilitis or split fingers. These can happen because of cob[ii] or mecbl lack, methylfolate lack, con[ii] or AdoCbl lack or lack of l-carnitine or other things, in order the things are used in growing cells. Copper, when it fails can do serious damage internally and exhibit the same appearance of lack of folate or B12 externally. And there are chains of things. Lack of copper can cause an iron and other metals bottleneck for instance.

Lithium appears to be key in balancing these things out and triaging the compartments for healing without necessarily triggering deficiency symptoms in other compartments such as those seen while titrating methylfolate from start to the last folate deficiency symptom or bottleneck, for me that is 45 mg daily and that was MCV. Then Copper deficiency made MCV go up faster and more than anything else. Learning ones patterns is hard enough. Lithium changes that pattern tremendously over some years, maybe faster.

If a person has enough TCR-Li they might experience that 5 minute absorption. Without it they appear to not experience that.

It took me about 5-6 years after starting MeCbl until I could no longer have 5 minute effect. It seems that I finally ran out of lithium. I was having a lot of dental problems (low copper, low boron) and having lots of fluoride treatments and likely the ground and water had less lithium than ever. Here the lithium all washed into the Great Salt Lake with flood irrigation of snow melt, very pure water.

It also appears that if cobalamin is seen in urine in an hour or two after an injection a person may not have sufficient TCR-Li where it is needed. Also lots of hypersensitivity to nutrients can be present.


Be well.
You're definitely further ahead on the subject than I am, but just based on trial and error & studying over the years I am coming to similar conclusions on several of the same fronts.

Lithium -
My understanding with lithium is that pretty much anything under or around 40mg a day (I take 20-40mg) of lithium orotate is considered a "nutritional" dose so dosing is response dependant based on the individual.

Oddly one of the more common responses I've seen from the people around me is the introduction of nutritional doses of lithium in individuals that are taking supplemental Ox Bile for fat digestion support find their required ox bile doses collapse to a fraction of what they were in a relatively short period of time and they generally see an improvement in mood as well. I don't know what your thoughts are on the subject, but it's my understanding that fish oil helps support the lithium as well.

Sublingual B12 never did anything for me even if I stacked "5 star" brands back to back the entire day. I have had above range B12 in the serum for as long as I can remember even without supplementation yet I have below range binding capacity and SpectraCell testing comes back with low B12 so that is how lithium got my radar.

With all the processing done to the water & food sources, I think we're going to see manifestations of lithium deficiency in the general population become increasingly prevalent.

Folate -
I've been taking a Metafolin generic but I am going to order some Quatrefolic to test alternating because it seems I am experiencing something similar in that it just quits working as efficiently necessitating an ever-increasing dose.

Do you have any theory on what causes the oscillation in effectiveness between the two different forms?

It is interesting what you were saying about your potassium stability because I have noticed something similar. It used to be that I needed a ton of potassium when I pushed methylation, but I am finding that even at 60mg of folate that I need some supplemental potassium but it's a fraction of what it used to be. 2-4 quarts of "Snake Juice" a day seems to be more than enough to get the job done for the most part now.

B12 -
How feasible is urine cobalamin testing? Just from a purely visual standpoint even at 15mg of MeCbl injected daily my urine has only had a slight red cast 1x and that was at the very beginning. From a conventional wisdom standpoint, you'd think that at that dose I'd be so thoroughly "swimming in it" that it would be visually present in the urine pretty often.

BTW - I've been reading about your trial and error testing for the last 6 yrs and I'm glad to hear that the lithium and larger folate doses were able to push you to a new level of wellness.
 

Freddd

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You're definitely further ahead on the subject than I am, but just based on trial and error & studying over the years I am coming to similar conclusions on several of the same fronts.

Lithium -
My understanding with lithium is that pretty much anything under or around 40mg a day (I take 20-40mg) of lithium orotate is considered a "nutritional" dose so dosing is response dependant based on the individual.

Oddly one of the more common responses I've seen from the people around me is the introduction of nutritional doses of lithium in individuals that are taking supplemental Ox Bile for fat digestion support find their required ox bile doses collapse to a fraction of what they were in a relatively short period of time and they generally see an improvement in mood as well. I don't know what your thoughts are on the subject, but it's my understanding that fish oil helps support the lithium as well.

Sublingual B12 never did anything for me even if I stacked "5 star" brands back to back the entire day. I have had above range B12 in the serum for as long as I can remember even without supplementation yet I have below range binding capacity and SpectraCell testing comes back with low B12 so that is how lithium got my radar.

With all the processing done to the water & food sources, I think we're going to see manifestations of lithium deficiency in the general population become increasingly prevalent.

Folate -
I've been taking a Metafolin generic but I am going to order some Quatrefolic to test alternating because it seems I am experiencing something similar in that it just quits working as efficiently necessitating an ever-increasing dose.

Do you have any theory on what causes the oscillation in effectiveness between the two different forms?

It is interesting what you were saying about your potassium stability because I have noticed something similar. It used to be that I needed a ton of potassium when I pushed methylation, but I am finding that even at 60mg of folate that I need some supplemental potassium but it's a fraction of what it used to be. 2-4 quarts of "Snake Juice" a day seems to be more than enough to get the job done for the most part now.

B12 -
How feasible is urine cobalamin testing? Just from a purely visual standpoint even at 15mg of MeCbl injected daily my urine has only had a slight red cast 1x and that was at the very beginning. From a conventional wisdom standpoint, you'd think that at that dose I'd be so thoroughly "swimming in it" that it would be visually present in the urine pretty often.

BTW - I've been reading about your trial and error testing for the last 6 yrs and I'm glad to hear that the lithium and larger folate doses were able to push you to a new level of wellness.
For starters, there was nothing "trial and error" about what I have come with. I started researching it in journals in 1978 and went back to the last effective trials of "protein mystery factor" adequately present in liver extract concentrate. The same repeat studies with CyCbl were a complete failure with all the neuropsych symptoms except that a little bit of CyCbl would often correct MCV. In 1979 - 1980. In the period I did four 6+ month trials of 100 x 350 mg defatted desiccated liver tablets. At about 6 months each time healing turned on hard and I got incredibly sick days after starting to feel better. It took 2 weeks of no liver each time to feel better. From 1998 to 2005 MeCbl, AdoCbl (body builders gave me a lot of info on making cells) and l-methylfolate all became easily available. This time I started with all the basics including a b-complex with folic acid and CyCbl, Jarrow B-Right.

The re-feeding was mild enough that I was able to deal with it with a few potassium tablets. Each nutrient in cell building/failure-sequence came in order. I titrated turning on more compartments of healing and often more of cell failure becasue of insufficient supplies when needed. The refeeding results what appeared to fit backed up by reading and confirming it's deficiencies AND found people who had corrected those symptoms with that item. I was looking for how to correct subacute combined degeneration and peripheral neuropathies data searching the web. I found 2 people up out of wheelchairs with MeCbl, one with HyCbl injections, 10 mg I think starting and MeCbl finished the job and none at all with CyCbl doing any good. The rest was engineering as they say. Every "next nutrient" was researched and planned. Nothing "trial and error" at all. Only ONE trial didn't work as expected, glutathione and that caused severe methyltrap and demyelination in 10 of 10 persons in a trial, useful to know, learned in 10 weeks getting "glutathione detox" and that it was a collection of B12 and methylfolate deficiencies caused by glutathione bonding to active b12 and flushing it pout of the body in the urine at triple or so the usually rate with injections.

I broke my own 3 way confirmation. I never found anybody with genuine good results. Instead it explained "detox" symptoms, massive l-methylfolate deficiencies caused by methyltrap and flushed out of body. We all, 10 of 10, then reversed it MeCbl injections and methylfolate increases. Each of us had at least one year of active b12-methylfolate-adocbl-carnitine healing and lots of "old symptoms" to return, and they did.

I have to finish later on how to approximate measure of B12 in urine., too late now.

Be well.
 
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Just for clarification, I didn't mean trial and error in a derogatory sense. It has just been my experience that what is "supposed to work" doesn't always translate to what actually takes place. You are certainly far more methodical than most so it wasn't meant to insinuate that you were just throwing things at the wall to see what stuck.
 
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I wasn't sure where to post this experience but here seemed a good fit since I've basically had an instantaneous reaction to adenosylcobalamin. I've been doing the advanced methylation protocol for about 10 months and I have used ALCAR for many years at fairly high doses of 500-1000 mg per day. I started the b12 transdermal oils about three weeks ago and I have been using the the mixed Adenosyl/Methyl. version. I had never noticed any reaction at all to sublingual adenosyl before but the oils must be very effective. I noticed a difference within minutes of my first application. By comparison, I was taking 50-75 mg a day of the sublingual methylb12 before I started the oils and I have only been using 2 - 3 doses per day of the oils. The increase in energy, both mental and physical but also b12 start up symptoms has me thinking that I must have had a partial block happening in the adeno/ALCAR/ATP part of the Deadlock Quartet or I have finally hit CNS penetration with the adenosyl. I also need 45 mg or more of methylfolate just to stay sane but I was already taking 25-35 mg a day before I started with the oils. I also think I may be experiencing these symptoms that Freddd has posted before and which I have also experienced before when I first started with methylcobalamin:

"A caution, those with anxiety and panic symptoms may respond with extreme moods of increased fear, anxiety, panic, anger rage, homicidal rage and profound depression, usually in repeatable sequences following LCF or ALCAR even at levels of 1mg oral. A micro titration of carnitine would be cautious. While most find the moods intolerable, certain persons have been able to tolerate these (both past) and current, to find they can fade after some months of consumption. A few people may find similar, maybe somewhat lesser, response to MeCbl or more likely AdoCbl"

That basically describes me all day. Huge levels of irritability, agitation, rage, anxiety and panic and I'm pretty sure I won't be sleeping tonight LOL! I hope this means I am doing more neurological healing and hopefully this phase doesn't last too long as I acclimatise to the adenosyl in CNS penetrating doses. I will definitely be cutting back on the ALCAR and adenosyl tomorrow. I will also try pulsing my adenosyl dose through the week instead of daily.

I'm still trying to get my head around the lithium and transcobalamin receptor issue and whether I should try tackling that. It's much harder to get lithium orotate in Canada as you need a prescription from a psychiatrist so I haven't been able to do anything but eat high lithium foods. I checked my gene info for CD320 and TCN2 gene issues as well as other genes related to b12 transport into cells and intrinsic factor and I have numerous homozygous and heterzygous SNPs. Lithium would supposedly help with my homozygous DAOA SNPs as well.
 
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For starters, there was nothing "trial and error" about what I have come with. I started researching it in journals in 1978 and went back to the last effective trials of "protein mystery factor" adequately present in liver extract concentrate. The same repeat studies with CyCbl were a complete failure with all the neuropsych symptoms except that a little bit of CyCbl would often correct MCV. In 1979 - 1980. In the period I did four 6+ month trials of 100 x 350 mg defatted desiccated liver tablets. At about 6 months each time healing turned on hard and I got incredibly sick days after starting to feel better. It took 2 weeks of no liver each time to feel better. From 1998 to 2005 MeCbl, AdoCbl (body builders gave me a lot of info on making cells) and l-methylfolate all became easily available. This time I started with all the basics including a b-complex with folic acid and CyCbl, Jarrow B-Right.

The re-feeding was mild enough that I was able to deal with it with a few potassium tablets. Each nutrient in cell building/failure-sequence came in order. I titrated turning on more compartments of healing and often more of cell failure becasue of insufficient supplies when needed. The refeeding results what appeared to fit backed up by reading and confirming it's deficiencies AND found people who had corrected those symptoms with that item. I was looking for how to correct subacute combined degeneration and peripheral neuropathies data searching the web. I found 2 people up out of wheelchairs with MeCbl, one with HyCbl injections, 10 mg I think starting and MeCbl finished the job and none at all with CyCbl doing any good. The rest was engineering as they say. Every "next nutrient" was researched and planned. Nothing "trial and error" at all. Only ONE trial didn't work as expected, glutathione and that caused severe methyltrap and demyelination in 10 of 10 persons in a trial, useful to know, learned in 10 weeks getting "glutathione detox" and that it was a collection of B12 and methylfolate deficiencies caused by glutathione bonding to active b12 and flushing it pout of the body in the urine at triple or so the usually rate with injections.

I broke my own 3 way confirmation. I never found anybody with genuine good results. Instead it explained "detox" symptoms, massive l-methylfolate deficiencies caused by methyltrap and flushed out of body. We all, 10 of 10, then reversed it MeCbl injections and methylfolate increases. Each of us had at least one year of active b12-methylfolate-adocbl-carnitine healing and lots of "old symptoms" to return, and they did.

I have to finish later on how to approximate measure of B12 in urine., too late now.

Be well.
Hi Freddd, this is a great find and one I think relevant to me and many others. When do you think you'll be putting out your writeup of Lithium?