• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

If glutathione supplements are so bad for B12 deficiency cases, why does Liposomal Glutathione help me so much momentarily?

Messages
31
I have textbook symptoms of B12 and thiamine deficiencies, whenever I take Liposomal Glutathione for a couple of days I start experiencing major improvements in my brain fog and body numbness, it's like glutathione kickstarts circulation back up in my body again, so much that it causes a sensation of pressure in some of my limbs. My libido also comes back full swing.

But after some days of these improvements I crash pretty badly, brain fog and fatigue becomes even worse for a while. This happens if I take full dose Liposomal Glutathione every day, but if I take a lower dose of it only occasionally combined with occasional sublingual methyl B12 and other B vitamins I have major improvements temporarily but without the crash afterwards.

I personally think thiamine deficiency is what's causing all sorts of deficiencies for me in B12, glutathione, acetylcholine, etc. So I'm trialing TTFD with cofactors right now, as this has done very noticeable things to me, it's been giving me strong sensations that travels through my brain stem.
 

LINE

Senior Member
Messages
866
Location
USA
You have to remember that there are many pathways that co-exist with each other as you know. If you push button A then button B and C are going to be changed (likely), Whack A mole.

Pathways are dependent on vitamin co-factors but also minerals, fatty acids and proteins. And of course, when you have disturbances of ME, things get unusual.

It sounds like you have some good experiments and observations going on. Testing through observations is the only way to go IMO and you are doing a good job!
 
Messages
31
It sounds like you have some good experiments and observations going on. Testing through observations is the only way to go IMO and you are doing a good job!

I've just been really wondering what the possible mechanisms behind the reactions I have to glutathione and B12 supplementation could be. I see so much conflicting information on here and Reddit that glutathione supplements induce B12 deficiencies, yet others have said glutathione actually helps your body utilize B12 if you're deficient, so I just don't know what to believe here.
 
Last edited:

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,340
Why do you think you have thiamine deficiency? As far as I know, very few people in the west would have any sort of clinical B1 deficiency. B12 deficiency is a little more common.

Improvement after taking a supplement and then crashing later on is very common in ME/CFS. Whenever you take a supplement, especially a powerful antioxidant like glutathione, you are probably altering thousands of metabolic pathways in your body. Most certainly taking glutathione would not cause you to develop vitamin B deficiencies within such a short period of time.

I generally do not find that supplements work or do not work for my symptoms due to actual deficiencies. I attribute the improvement I get from some supplements to that my body is temporarily pushed out of the "ME/CFS homeostatis" state. Once pushed out of that, I feel better, but my body and immune system inevitably wants to get back to the ME/CFS state and eventually succeeds once it adapts to the effects of the new supplement.
 
Messages
31
Why do you think you have thiamine deficiency?

Because I have textbook symptoms of dysautonomia, gastroparesis, impaired gut motility and blood flow issues which are all more often associated with thiamine deficiency. It's not even rare either, it can happen in several instances such as chronic stress, alcohol abuse and long-term antibiotic use. (which I unfortunately have done) High dose thiamine has also helped many with ME/CFS.
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,340
Because I have textbook symptoms of dysautonomia, gastroparesis, impaired gut motility and blood flow issues which are all more often associated with thiamine deficiency. It's not even rare either, it can happen in several instances such as chronic stress, alcohol abuse and long-term antibiotic use. (which I unfortunately have done) High dose thiamine has also helped many with ME/CFS.

If you type those symptoms into Google or an AI diagnostic bot, I reckon you'd find dozens of diseases that include those four symptoms. They are all for example typical symptoms that ME/CFS patients struggle with as well.

Yep, I reckon a few persons here reported their symptoms were helped by high-dose thiamine, but they were not cured either, which they should be if it was merely thiamine deficiency.

The reason high-dose thiamine improves fatigue in ME/CFS has unlikely much to do with clinical or any sort of thiamine deficiency, but rather that high dose thiamine provides a co-factor in various metabolic pathways that are speculated to be dysregulated in ME/CFS.

Thiamine is for example a cofactor needed by the enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase, which is essential in energy metabolism. Pyruvate dehydrogenase is impaired in ME/CFS if we believe the findings of Norwegian ME/CFS researchers Fluge and Mella. The reason is not thiamine deficiency, but rather likely immune mediated.

But let's say an ME/CFS patient takes high-dose thiamine, it may help to allow the pathways involving pyruvate dehydrogenase to function closer to normal at least temporarily, so the result would be improvement in symptoms from thiamine that was unrelated to any clinical thiamine deficiency.
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,566
Location
Seattle
@HurrySaveMe, Glutathione isn't bad for those with B12 deficiency or sufficiency. It helps B12 to work better, to become metabolically active. I had one of my best remissions back in 2004 when a doc prescribed methyl-B12 injections along with nebulized glutathione.

I think you're probably referring to Fred's many mentions of glutathione 'destroying' b12 or something along those lines. First of all, he has said he never used glutathione itself, but rather NAC (n-acetylcysteine) and/or glutamine (or as he called it l-glutamate). And in his case these rather odd reactions may be due to rare genetic issues that he may have.
 

Tsukareta

Senior Member
Messages
150
for me it often causes a 'detox' which feels like a mild fever where you start to sweat under the armpits, have a change in cognition, sort of like a mild brain fog or unfocused hazy mind, and often a sort of dull stomach ache, usually doesn't last long though, I have got the same effect from activated charcoal, I have mold exposure and related symptoms though like blurry vision, red eyes, allergic like reactions to food and multiple chemical sensitivity.
 

cheeseater

Senior Member
Messages
182
Agree with Jes. Thiamin deficiency is pretty unusual outside of third world contries where very poor diets are common.

Most common cause I have seen of thiamin deficiency is advanced alcoholism disease. But, people with nutrient absorption troubles from things like Crohn's disease or celiac disease can also cause it.

Crohn's and celiac disease can also cause B12 deficiency. Some people get better results with a methyl protocol of methylfolate and Methylcobalamin.
 
Messages
13
I have textbook symptoms of B12 and thiamine deficiencies, whenever I take Liposomal Glutathione for a couple of days I start experiencing major improvements in my brain fog and body numbness, it's like glutathione kickstarts circulation back up in my body again, so much that it causes a sensation of pressure in some of my limbs. My libido also comes back full swing.

But after some days of these improvements I crash pretty badly, brain fog and fatigue becomes even worse for a while. This happens if I take full dose Liposomal Glutathione every day, but if I take a lower dose of it only occasionally combined with occasional sublingual methyl B12 and other B vitamins I have major improvements temporarily but without the crash afterwards.

I personally think thiamine deficiency is what's causing all sorts of deficiencies for me in B12, glutathione, acetylcholine, etc. So I'm trialing TTFD with cofactors right now, as this has done very noticeable things to me, it's been giving me strong sensations that travels through my brain stem.
I'm pretty much in the same boat. I've been having severe gut issues for the past 3 years, although i've had IBS my entire life but it wasn't causing the massive decline in health like it has been in the past 3 years as things went from bad to worse and worse.

I learned about thiamine deficiency, POTS, Gastroparesis, etc. My panic attacks completely resolved by taking thiamine and the rest of the b complex, even my extreme RLS. I had extremely good results with TTFD for the first few weeks of taking it in different doses. I was doing carnivore diet, took a multi vitamin, took TTFD, took magnesium, took cofactors for glutathione. I started going to the park and would walk 6-10 miles nearly every single day, honestly i think it's the TTFD that super energized me. I couldn't sit still, always wanted to keep going and going. Maybe the TTFD was forcing some kind of mania behavior by increasing dopamine in the brain.

Anyways my digestion was still weird but i was gaining weight during this time, despite going pretty crazy with the daily exercise, while being on a carnivore diet. I was still underweight but somehow i was gaining weight on a zero carb diet, which was a great thing for me. Of course then everything started to decline and get worse and worse. Went from daily exercise to sitting home just barely functioning again and digestion got even worse and started shedding weight pretty badly. I have a history of gut infections (H pylori, SIBO, C. Diff) because something broke in my metabolism and my stomach acid levels pretty much dropped to null and i have pretty much paralyzed or lazy intestines/stomach.

So long story short, i'm in a similar boat. I'm pretty sure i need more glutathione and/or cofactors for glutathione but i'd get neuropathy after a few days of NAC/Glutamine. Perhaps Freddd is correct but maybe that's only from cofactors and not glutathione itself.

I've done an organic acid test that showed a defect in methylation, dysbiosis and a problem with dopamine conversions (copper/vitamin c related). Yet to do any other specialized testing besides testing that i can get at my primary care doctor for basic stuff. I've pretty much given up on my doctor at this point.
 

GreenEdge

Senior Member
Messages
658
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I've pretty much given up on my doctor at this point.
Me too. I'm in a similar boat to you and @HurrySaveMe, but I've found ways forward.

Low stomach acid is helped by taking TMG (tri-methyl-glycine). The Glycine from TMG when combined with Cysteine from NAC (n-acetyl cysteine), enables our bodies to naturally make glutathione in the liver. By providing these precursors your body can produce the exact amount of glutathione it requires.
 

GreenEdge

Senior Member
Messages
658
Location
Brisbane, Australia
On the other hand, glutathione from direct supplementation is poorly absorbed. But liposomal means absorption is forced (unregulated). Taking lipsomal forms of supplements is like playing god; do you really think you know better than our bodies highly evolved and conserved cellular processes and autonomic nervous system.

I have textbook symptoms of B12 and thiamine deficiencies, whenever I take Liposomal Glutathione for a couple of days I start experiencing major improvements in my brain fog and body numbness, it's like glutathione kickstarts circulation back up in my body again, so much that it causes a sensation of pressure in some of my limbs. My libido also comes back full swing.

But after some days of these improvements I crash pretty badly, brain fog and fatigue becomes even worse for a while. This happens if I take full dose Liposomal Glutathione every day, but if I take a lower dose of it only occasionally combined with occasional sublingual methyl B12 and other B vitamins I have major improvements temporarily but without the crash afterwards.
That's an example of what can happen when you force glutathione absorption with a liposomal form of the supplement.

I've just been really wondering what the possible mechanisms behind the reactions I have to glutathione and B12 supplementation could be. I see so much conflicting information on here and Reddit that glutathione supplements induce B12 deficiencies, yet others have said glutathione actually helps your body utilize B12 if you're deficient, so I just don't know what to believe here.
If glutathione helps our body utilize B12 then yes, lipsomal (forced) glutathione absorption will utilize B12 (even when you're running low) and possibly induce B12 deficiencies.
 
Last edited:

GreenEdge

Senior Member
Messages
658
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I personally think thiamine deficiency is what's causing all sorts of deficiencies for me in B12, glutathione, acetylcholine, etc. So I'm trialing TTFD with cofactors right now, as this has done very noticeable things to me, it's been giving me strong sensations that travels through my brain stem.
No, by definition poor diet is the cause of deficiencies. I've reviewed anthropology and human physiology and I'm convinced the carnivore diet is the proper diet for humans and lion diet is optimal. However they don't provide excess thiamine to correct a B1 deficiency.

Because I have textbook symptoms of dysautonomia, gastroparesis, impaired gut motility and blood flow issues which are all more often associated with thiamine deficiency. It's not even rare either, it can happen in several instances such as chronic stress, alcohol abuse and long-term antibiotic use. (which I unfortunately have done) High dose thiamine has also helped many with ME/CFS.
I have studied nutrition and I agree, thiamine deficiency is a likely cause of ME/CFS.
- the preceding flu like virus causing muscle soreness depleted your B1.
- or extreme stress and a poor diet depleted your B1.

Thiamine (B1) supports nervous system repair while THC from cannabis helps restore function (retrain). Complete nutrition from carnivore diet + removal of plant toxins from lion diet to reduce pain (see: video) + AKG and Beta Alanine helps support exercise tolerance... more
 
Messages
31
@GreenEdge , what intrigues me is the interaction of glutathione and candida-sibo, I have exactly the same problem when it comes to finding information about candida feeding on some B vitamins as many sources contradict each other, some report positive effects and some negative, I end up always using myself as a guinea pig, do you think it is safe to use l-glutathione when fighting yeast infection or will it feed the candida even more?
 

datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
404
Location
USA
It appears the answer is that Glutathione protects vitamin B12 from depletion by xenobiotics and superoxide.

Superoxide is implicated in the pathophysiology of many inflammatory diseases, whereas vitamin B(12) derivatives are often beneficial in their treatment. We found that cob(II)alamin reacts with superoxide at rates approaching those of superoxide dismutase itself, suggesting a probable mechanism by which vitamin B(12) protects against chronic inflammation and modulates redox homeostasis. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19799418/

the normal plasma and serum concentrations of cobalamins in humans are in the few hundreds picomolar range, which are orders of magnitude lower than concentrations for GSH (low millimolar range). Hence, although cobalamin could act as a scavenger of electrophilic xenobiotics, Cbl(I) could more likely be vulnerable to depletion by alkylation leading to its deficiency in an analogous manner to that caused by the anesthetic nitrous oxide. In addition, we also investigated possible interaction and synergies between vitamin B12 and GSH and made the intriguing discovery that glutathione can prevent the formation and reaction of the Cbl(I) form of vitamin B12 with xenobiotics, such as those formed in the mammalian metabolism of the industrial chemicals styrene (1), chloroprene (2), and 1,3-butadiene https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/tx0497898
 

GreenEdge

Senior Member
Messages
658
Location
Brisbane, Australia
@GreenEdge ... do you think it is safe to use l-glutathione when fighting yeast infection or will it feed the candida even more?
I don't know about l-glutathione and candida, so I can't answer your question.

Absorption of glutathione is very poor:
Witschi et al showed that it is impossible to boost serum GSH level to a clinically beneficial level even after oral administration of a high single dose of 3 g. 34 This fact limits the therapeutic use of glutathione GSH by the oral route.
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9473545/

Instead of l-glutathione, you'd do better taking the precursors: glycine and n-acetyl cysteine (NAC). See: NAC Destroys Candida Biofilms.
 
Last edited:

datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
404
Location
USA
Witschi et al showed that it is impossible to boost serum GSH level to a clinically beneficial level even after oral administration of a high single dose of 3 g. 34 This fact limits the therapeutic use of glutathione GSH by the oral route.
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9473545/

Instead of l-glutathione, you'd do better taking the precursors: glycine and n-acetyl cysteine (NAC). See: NAC Destroys Candida Biofilms.

Hi @GreenEdge The addition of an acetyl function group to the glutathione molecule allows it to remain intact when ingested and to pass through the blood brain barrier. It works so that is preferred over needing to take all the cofactors and create glutathione. The one I was using: https://www.amazon.com/S-Acetyl-L-Glutathione-Capsules-Glutathione-Supplements/dp/B07CP43D1S/

S-Acetyl L-Glutathione is a higher bio-available glutathione variant for oral absorption. Unfortunately, most Glutathione supplements have low bioavailability as you mentioned, as the molecule breaks down rapidly after oral ingestion from what I've read also. That is why supplements such as the proimmune are mostly the building blocks and selenium. S-Acetyl L-Glutathione however is an altered form with an attached acetyl function group. This greatly improves its ability to remain intact in the gut and allows a greater concentration to be absorbed into the bloodstream where it can take effect. And as mentioned above it looks like a loss of glutathione (and zinc is needed for glutathione http://www.immunehealthscience.com/benefits-of-zinc.html and will be lowered from inflammation or infection ) leads to the B12 deficiency both by lowering stomach acid as well as directly being lowered it appears by superoxide which can be protected from loss a bit from added glutathione.

Some sources of glutathione are asparagus, spinach, broccoli, garlic, cabbage, onions, watercress and Brussels sprouts, cumin and cinnamon. Other foods, which contain glutathione in less quantity, are avocado, grapefruit, melon, peaches, oranges, nuts, granola, turkey and chicken. Glutamic acid and glycine are found in almost all the foods we eat, but cysteine is much scarcer found in eggs, garlic, milk. However, cysteine is extremely sensitive to heat, so if these foods are heated, they completely lose their cysteine, inactivating it.
 
Last edited:

almost

Senior Member
Messages
146
The addition of an acetyl function group to the glutathione molecule allows it to remain intact when ingested and to pass through the blood brain barrier. It works so that is preferred over needing to take all the cofactors and create glutathione. The one I was using: https://www.amazon.com/S-Acetyl-L-Glutathione-Capsules-Glutathione-Supplements/dp/B07CP43D1S/
Thank you for this. After my NutrEval, my doc at the time said I had one of the lowest glutathione levels he had ever seen. He recommended an oral supplement, but soon discovered the same info you all have, that the oral route does not help. I've been using precursors, but this acetyl form looks interesting. Thank you.
 

almost

Senior Member
Messages
146
@GreenEdge, thank you for the link to the paper by Sharma & Sharma. I found that an interesting read. What was really intriguing was this:
Patients were given a solution with 200 mg glutathione or placebo. The solution was held in the mouth for 90 seconds and then swallowed. Blood samples were collected and glutathione levels determined. They found that glutathione absorption from oral mucosa massively and rapidly increased serum concentration.
The body is an amazing machine. I may give this a try.
 
Back