I feel very bad

[yellowspain]

I had managed to start the methylation cycle, it had improved and everything was broken again.

What worked before no longer works now and I don't know how to get out of this. In just a few days, my health has deteriorated greatly.

I think that if I don't find a solution quickly, the methylation deficiency is going to end up killing me.

 

[LINE]

My experience with methylation is that it can be complex as the needs can change over time or more rapidly. Methylation is sort of a cake recipe in that too much of one item can throw off the entire batch.

Since Methylation targets the liver, moving this can also release toxins which has been my experience. I use some specific binders that help remove toxins. If toxins are dispersing, you are likely not going to feel well.

Glycine (bone broth) is also used in the methylation cycle and the liver. Bone broth has always helped me.

 

[Curtains]

Hi,

With Like mentioning that methylation can release toxins. I'm currently doing the Perrin technique which can release toxins too. I've started taking milk thistle which seems to have helped. I know it's different approaches potentially leading to toxins being released but thought I'd mention it in case it can help you.

 

[yellowspain]

My experience with methylation is that it can be complex as the needs can change over time or more rapidly. Methylation is sort of a cake recipe in that too much of one item can throw off the entire batch.

Since Methylation targets the liver, moving this can also release toxins which has been my experience. I use some specific binders that help remove toxins. If toxins are dispersing, you are likely not going to feel well.

Glycine (bone broth) is also used in the methylation cycle and the liver. Bone broth has always helped me.

Thanks for answering, in my case I don't have problems with heavy metals or mycotoxins. This is a methyl trap

 

[linusbert]

did you supply methylgroup buffers?
glycine is a buffer.

did you supply methylgroup donors?
like cholin (also rich in eggs), betain? methionine?
cave: methylfolate and methylcobalamin are no rich source of methylgroups, they are transporters of methylgroups mainly.

did you supply acetylgroup buffers?
like L-carnitine or carnitine-fumarate.
if you have too less acetylgroups, acetyl-l-carnitine can help with that. also acetic acid in vinegar might help.
(but careful, if you have too much acetylgroups already, acetyl-l-carnitine will make it worse.. and normal l-carnitine would make it better)

also potassium and phosphate need to be supplied in enough quantities.


folks often do take those active and methylated vitamins driving up conversion of methylgroup and acetylgroups but then they run out of a methylgroup source.
if you have too less methylgroups and/or vitamins your homocystein levels in blood will rise.

 

[yellowspain]

did you supply methylgroup buffers?
glycine is a buffer.

did you supply methylgroup donors?
like cholin (also rich in eggs), betain? methionine?
cave: methylfolate and methylcobalamin are no rich source of methylgroups, they are transporters of methylgroups mainly.

did you supply acetylgroup buffers?
like L-carnitine or carnitine-fumarate.
if you have too less acetylgroups, acetyl-l-carnitine can help with that. also acetic acid in vinegar might help.
(but careful, if you have too much acetylgroups already, acetyl-l-carnitine will make it worse.. and normal l-carnitine would make it better)

also potassium and phosphate need to be supplied in enough quantities.


folks often do take those active and methylated vitamins driving up conversion of methylgroup and acetylgroups but then they run out of a methylgroup source.
if you have too less methylgroups and/or vitamins your homocystein levels in blood will rise.

Yes, my methyl donor sources are covered. Additionally, I have taken a small dose of a multivitamin. I can't find a solution.

The problem is a folate trap, I have symptoms of b12 deficiency.

 

[JES]

If you feel worse my suggestion is to stop all or at least most supplements. It's not a good idea to attempt to "push it through" in hope for supplement x to start magically working weeks or months later.

It also may not be productive to zero in on your problem as related to methylation. Most people who are very sick with ME/CFS did not develop this condition from methylation issues, otherwise treating methylation would have cured at least most of us by now.

 

[yellowspain]

If you feel worse my suggestion is to stop all or at least most supplements. It's not a good idea to attempt to "push it through" in hope for supplement x to start magically working weeks or months later.

It also may not be productive to zero in on your problem as related to methylation. Most people who are very sick with ME/CFS did not develop this condition from methylation issues, otherwise treating methylation would have cured at least most of us by now.

I have to take vitamins b9 and b12 because I have had a severe vitamin b9 deficiency, but they make me feel bad.I am dessesperate

 

[pamojja]

I have to take vitamins b9 and b12 because I have had a severe vitamin b9 deficiency, but they make me feel bad.

However, you do take the B9 and B12 in the form of the multi, as you told in your other thread. I, too, would in your case stop the multi - with dozens unaccounted for other ingredients - in favor of trying a B9 Methyl folate supplement only. (starting with low dose only, and increase slowly)

 

[yellowspain]

However, you do take the B9 and B12 in the form of the multi, as you told in your other thread. I, too, would in your case stop the multi - with dozens unaccounted for other ingredients - in favor of trying a B9 Methyl folate supplement only. (starting with low dose only, and increase slowly)

No, I am taking b9 and B12 and a multi

 

[pamojja]

Thanks for correcting me. I confused a discussion of another member.

 

[JES]

No, I am taking b9 and B12 and a multi

Then have you tried not taking anything and see if you improve? The fact that you have B9 deficiency does not prove B9 deficiency causes your symptoms.

I had a complete blood work of every mineral and vitamin done. Even most healthy people are deficient in something. It could or could not be the cause of your symptoms.

 

[drmullin30]

The problem is a folate trap, I have symptoms of b12 deficiency.

Can you provide additional details on your symptoms? What are the worst and most prominent symptoms?
How do you know that it is a methyl/folate trap?

 

[Wishful]

I don't understand methylation techniques. Methylation is a biological process that is good and bad, and you don't get to choose which genes you activate or silence. So, to me it seems totally random whether boosting or restricting the nutrients for methylation will help or harm.

 

[linusbert]

I don't understand methylation techniques. Methylation is a biological process that is good and bad, and you don't get to choose which genes you activate or silence. So, to me it seems totally random whether boosting or restricting the nutrients for methylation will help or harm.

i believe around 40% of methylation goes to synthesis of creatine, and another 30% to synthesises of phosphatidylcholin (PC), so we can say that about 2/3 go into creatine and PC.
so if methylation doesnt work we probably can expect low creatine and low PC or even deficiencies in those.
and sure, methylation of DNA as you say we dont know specifics what the body will do with it.

i was thinking,
i dont know if supplementation of creatine and or PC will relief the methylation metabolism, but its imaginable. but it could also lead to overmethylation. and then i wonder , is there any balancing in progress, gets the body used to supplementation and what happens if it ceases. will the body restore old production rates or is it like with cortisol supplementation where a organ (adrenal glands) atrophies.

I have to take vitamins b9 and b12 because I have had a severe vitamin b9 deficiency, but they make me feel bad.I am dessesperate

what forms of those are you using exactly and what dosages?
forms are folic acid, folinic acid, methylfolate (and then various other names for those). as well as cyano- or methyl- or adenosyl- or hydroxocobalamin.

 

[pamojja]

i believe around 40% of methylation goes to synthesis of creatine, and another 30% to synthesises of phosphatidylcholin (PC), so we can say that about 2/3 go into creatine and PC.

Don't believe we can really seriously assign any percentage numbers. Or if in a particular case with all the unknowns turn out worse. However, dietary, supplemental or lifestyle changes are usually reversible,

then i wonder , is there any balancing in progress, gets the body used to supplementation and what happens if it ceases. will the body restore old production rates or is it like with cortisol supplementation where a organ (adrenal glands) atrophies.

Sadly, the human body ages. Vitamin absorption and utilization rates drop sharply with age. Same with endogenous hormone or conditionally essential nutrients' production. Like with CoQ10 too. Therefore, if one benefited from supplementation, when quit - lets say 10 years later - the body indeed is in a worse place than before supplementing, just by the effects of being 10 more years aged. Is there is any other solution than proper diet and supplementation to this side effect, of natural aging?

 

[yellowspain]

I am vomiting I think I am going to die

 

[yellowspain]

Can you provide additional details on your symptoms? What are the worst and most prominent symptoms?
How do you know that it is a methyl/folate trap?

My symptoms are neurological, It feels like inflamattion. All of them improve taking b9 and B12, but the vitamins stop workint, all the symptoms return, now I have "detox" symptoms, plus depression, vomiting and lack of apetite

 

[yellowspain]

Then have you tried not taking anything and see if you improve? The fact that you have B9 deficiency does not prove B9 deficiency causes your symptoms.

I had a complete blood work of every mineral and vitamin done. Even most healthy people are deficient in something. It could or could not be the cause of your symptoms.

The symptoms improved taking b9. Then the vitamins stop workint .I stop the suplemments and my symptoms are worsening

 

[yellowspain]

i believe around 40% of methylation goes to synthesis of creatine, and another 30% to synthesises of phosphatidylcholin (PC), so we can say that about 2/3 go into creatine and PC.
so if methylation doesnt work we probably can expect low creatine and low PC or even deficiencies in those.
and sure, methylation of DNA as you say we dont know specifics what the body will do with it.

i was thinking,
i dont know if supplementation of creatine and or PC will relief the methylation metabolism, but its imaginable. but it could also lead to overmethylation. and then i wonder , is there any balancing in progress, gets the body used to supplementation and what happens if it ceases. will the body restore old production rates or is it like with cortisol supplementation where a organ (adrenal glands) atrophies.


what forms of those are you using exactly and what dosages?
forms are folic acid, folinic acid, methylfolate (and then various other names for those). as well as cyano- or methyl- or adenosyl- or hydroxocobalamin.

400mcg methylfolate
200 mcg methycobalamine