How do we stop Liver disease (Fatty Liver, Hepatic Statosis, type 2 diabetes, mitochondrial disease)

[Gondwanaland]

biotin to metabolize fat ... i take 150 mcg a day in my b complex ... i'll wait for more research ... my intuition says biotin may effect fat metabolism but only in small ways or if a person is too deficient in it etc ... until a better optimal dose is determined, i just go route of moderation and figure there are bigger players like choline that have the larger impact ... we'll see

Interestingly choline makes my hair fall copiously

 

[prioris]

never heard hair falling out due to choline.

 

[Gondwanaland]

never heard hair falling out due to choline.

Me neither I think it is related with low estrogen and choline would help to breal estrogen down.

 

[mariovitali]

@Gondwanaland @prioris

FWIW i have asked a question whether the Research team at OMF has ever performed a Liver Biopsy to any CFS patient. No response so far :


http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...sted-research-on-cfs.51283/page-4#post-855142

also, one of the algorithms being used (that identified Pyruvate Dehydrogenase as a Topic of interest one year before the Fluge study) had "Liver Disease" as the most important feature that deserves further investigation.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-treatment-for-cfs.37244/page-65#post-679562

Needless to say that Liver Biopsy is not an easy option / decision to take however it is the Golden standard to assess Liver disease to the best of my knowledge.


I would be very cautious to anything related to "Liver Cleanse"

 

[prioris]

tidbits of infomation I found

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When a portion of a normal liver is removed, the remaining liver can grow back (regenerate) to the original size within one to two weeks. A cirrhotic liver, however, cannot grow back.
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Liver failure can happen in two ways. First, the acute damage can simply be too serious for liver cells to deal with before the person dies. Second is a more protracted process, where damages accumulate.

Suppose that the liver has taken damages from infection/drug/alcohol/etc. Then, instead of liver cells regenerating, scar tissues can form in the liver and replace them. Scar tissue is tougher than cushy liver tissue, so this leads to hardened liver with reduced function. (Cirrhosis) If this damage keeps piling up, the liver will eventually be overwhelmed and lead to chronic liver failure.
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Liver regeneration is a somewhat misleading term. The liver cells regenerate but there is more to it: the liver is arranged in small "units", called a portal triad. Inside a portal triad are: an artery, a portal vein, a bile duct, lymphatic vessels, as well as liver cells (parenchyma). While the liver cells can regenerate, the triads cannot. So if you damaged, beyond repair, a triad, allowed time for "regeneration", then looked at it under a microscope, you would see liver cells and scar tissue, but not the other components of the triad, which are essential to liver function.
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I would say this - Serrapeptase can and does heal internal scar tissue although doctors will say nothing can be done. Virtually the entire body can regenerate so one should never give up. Of course there is always that tipping point where body can simply be too overwhelmed too quickly.

 

[prioris]

>I would be very cautious to anything related to "Liver Cleanse"

Most of this idea is spread on internet by conventional doctors or people who are spreading fear and have hidden agendas. They will say something like - if you go outside, you will be struck by lightning. There is a technical truth to it but it is still a lie in spirit. The same people will stay silent about people getting their gallbladders removed unnecessarily and the resulting consequences to their lives.

I intend to write an in depth overview post about the Liver/Gallbladder cleanse at some point but won't be for a while.

 

[prioris]

Miscellaneous problems

I've been having trouble with kidney/gallbladder stones. I traced it to oxalates in diet. My first true kidney stone attack with much pain ever happened when I ate spinach about 6 weeks ago. I had minor stones in bladder pain on and off for some years but thought it was bursitis. I thought I could eat a bowl of green salad but got attack from it last night. I even took 300 mg magnesium citrate with meal but oxalate contents probably overwhelmed it.

So I got something to focus on to hopefully deal with problem. First step is just preventing kidney/stone events from happening then trial and error after that. Maybe I have to cleanse my bladder of accumulated oxalates too. Very Green and very high oxalate foods are off limit to me for now. I thought it was initially related to my initial liver problem.

I also have swollen lymph nodes on both sides. Calming down the kidney problems allows me to focus on lymphs sooner. Lymph nodes kind of fooled me because I thought it was kidney pain initially because they are adjacent to each other. I also thought it may be caused by gallbladder problem but it is on both sides and the color of my pooh - brown - should mean that bile production is ok. i still want to flush my gallbladder of any accumulated stones again at some point to improve gallbladder.

In summary
accumulated saturated fat->Liver problem
dietary oxalates->kidney/bladder stones
lymph nodes ... unknown
neuropathy ... still working on it

 

[Gondwanaland]

Are you still on carnosine? Do you feel positive effects from it? I am under the impression that

accumulated saturated fat->Liver problem
dietary oxalates->kidney/bladder stones
lymph nodes ... unknown
neuropathy ... still working on it

are side effects from glycation. I have bookmarked the lessons about it by Chris Masterjohn to learn more.

 

[prioris]

glycation ... AGES ... i was thinking that it may be major problem

I've addressed glycation with
300mg 2Xday Bentotiamen
100mg 2Xday Stabilized RALA.

Maybe add some Curcumin and Carnosine ???

Any ideas (haven't read that page yet)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Benfotiamine, a lipid-soluble form of thiamine, vitamin B16,7
2. Tomato paste8
3. Resveratrol, inositol, and others9
4. Pyridoxamine, a form of vitamin B610,11
5. Carnosine11,12
6. Curcumin13
7. Rosemary14
8. Alpha-lipoic acid15
9. Flavonoids luteolin, rutin, quercetin, kaempferol, and EGCG16

 

[Gondwanaland]

Maybe add some Curcumin and Carnosine ???

I don't think curcumin will help you at your stage (stones). It might backfire (oxalates).

Any ideas

This is my approach. I will retry it with a combo of vitamins and minerals to support the energy explosion.

(haven't read that page yet)

Me neither

 

[Gondwanaland]

@prioris are you including biotin in your regime? It is also supposed to help with fat metabolism (lowers LDL) in addition to being essential for Leucine and Lysine metabolism.

 

[prioris]

@prioris are you including biotin in your regime? It is also supposed to help with fat metabolism (lowers LDL) in addition to being essential for Leucine and Lysine metabolism.

i take a coenzyme b-complex which contains biotin

 

[dannybex]

It's my understanding that fatty liver is primarily a result of a higher carbohydrate diet, rather than high saturated fat. That fits with my history. Although I haven't been officially diagnosed with fatty liver, my belly is where I carry almost all my fat weight -- I look like I'm six month pregnant -- and I do have all the other necessary ingredients: high triglycerides, high LDL and low HDL cholesterol, and with the exception of omega 3 fats, was nearly intolerant of all fats (especially saturated fats) so I ate a very, very low fat diet for about 7-8 years up until about 8 months ago when I added a 3-6-9 blend.

Instead of videos and assorted websites (which I used to turn to for most of my info as well), here are some studies to check out.

The first shows the connection between carbs, especially fructose, which result in high triglycerides and fatty liver:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4405421/

Oxalates were mentioned. In fact, kidney stones have a connection to fatty liver:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4976131/

I'm certainly taking some supplements, but trying to look at the big picture, so I'm looking at high-dose probiotics, those specifically shown to improve not only fatty liver, but the related blood sugar issues, high triglycerides, metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance, not to mention increase those that are low in ME/CFS, etc., etc..

Some studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21901256

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4229517/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3947892/

And niacin, which reverses fatty liver by lowering free fatty acids, at least in rats!:

http://ajpgi.physiology.org/content/306/4/G320.long

I'm also going to try to slowly add small amounts of egg, for the choline content.

 

[prioris]

Dannybex, yep more things to look at. Niacin and choline in eggs could be preventative. I prefer to bring out heavy artillery for liver disease. HFCS may negatively effect fat metabolism of liver hence diabetes association etc. I minimize HFCS in my diet. They are big part of processed foods. I've will continue research on oxalates and relationship to liver. I still have a stone stuck in my ureter aarrgghhh from days back. hope it comes out soon which is my priority right now.

 

[Gondwanaland]

have a stone stuck in my ureter aarrgghhh

Look into chanca-piedra, also Bryophyllum pinnatum which I wouldn't take but my mother took it about 25 years ago when she was passing stones and swear by it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryophyllum_pinnatum#Toxicity_and_traditional_medicine
Toxicity and traditional medicine
In common with other Crassulaceae (such as the genera Tylecodon, Cotyledon and Adromischus), Bryophyllum pinnatum has been found to contain bufadienolidecardiac glycosides[8] These can cause cardiac poisoning, particularly in grazing animals.[9][10]

Bryophyllum pinnatum has been recorded in Trinidad and Tobago as being used as a traditional treatment for hypertension.[11] The juice made of Bryophylum is useful for cure of kidneystones, although there is no evidence-based clinical indication for these uses in modern medicine and, indeed, such usage could prove dangerous and even fatal in some cases.

 

[Tunguska]

It's my understanding that fatty liver is primarily a result of a higher carbohydrate diet, rather than high saturated fat. That fits with my history. Although I haven't been officially diagnosed with fatty liver, my belly is where I carry almost all my fat weight -- I look like I'm six month pregnant -- and I do have all the other necessary ingredients: high triglycerides, high LDL and low HDL cholesterol, and with the exception of omega 3 fats, was nearly intolerant of all fats (especially saturated fats) so I ate a very, very low fat diet for about 7-8 years up until about 8 months ago when I added a 3-6-9 blend.

You are right that carb intake has gotten associated with fatty liver, large doses of fructose being the worst. But it's more a result of insufficient protein and choline intake to back up the carbs.

In general choline and high protein can fix many cases of fatty liver over time. But choline intake is problematic because although it can cure fatty liver, the absorption through diet can be poor and cause unrelated problems. Fatty liver per se isn't strictly a disease because it can happen as a normal response, but it can also happen through disease pathology. I haven't posted in this thread because I didn't feel like collecting links to the studies which are plastered all over another forum. But basically, high protein + choline + (high taurine or TUDCA) will eliminate it over time.

 

[Tunguska]

I should add, the B vitamins are required to support the choline, so deficiency is bad, but high doses of B vitamins can in fact cause fatty liver; there are studies for this but you can find them.

 

[Gondwanaland]

high doses of B vitamins can in fact cause fatty liver

I read that they can also cause kidney damage

 

[Tunguska]

I read that they can also cause kidney damage

I wasn't aware of that one, but that would be more alarming than fatty liver (which isn't automatically damage).

 

[Gondwanaland]

I wasn't aware of that one, but that would be more alarming than fatty liver (which isn't automatically damage).

I guess B3 can be blamed for both, not sure about others