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A report about anti-glycation supps Carnosine Beta-Alanine (=methylation?)

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Gondwanaland, Mar 31, 2017.

  1. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I am starting this thread in the methylation subforum because the reaction I got from an anti-glycation supplement was similar to taking MB12. The following reflects personal observations.

    Carcinine is a synthetic version of Carnosine modified to avoid quick degradation in the body. Carnosine on its turn is composed of Beta-Alanine + Histidine. Since they are DAO blockers, they upregulate other B6 pathways. I started histamine-degrading probiotics 2 weeks before to avoid problems with blocked DAO.

    Carcinine is usually prescribed as an anti-wrinkle supplement in dosages 100 – 300 mg. I took 10mg (ten) daily for 2 weeks with the following results:

    • increased physical and mental energy (procrastination gone! Easy decision making! I could clean and organize stuff again!)
    • accessing childhood memories
    • reduced pain in joint/muscles esp trapezius
    • good mood and high spirits
    • eyebrow regrowth
    • reversal of "turkey neck" in just a couple of days
    • excellent tolerance to heat and sun (I could walk outside at a temperature above 35°C with no issues!)
    • improved transsulfuration (could chop onions without tears)
    • zero allergies/intolerances
    • easy and frequent BMs (it increased the benefits I was already having from probx)
    • the cuticles of my fingernails became exceptionally healthy
    • the skin at the sides of my fingernails became very hard, just like when I take B5

    Down sides:

    After a while I started experiencing early awakening/overstimulation, which is a symptom of hyperthyroid so I decided to stop it. I also experienced a wobbly joint at the left hip ( @Konflict ) so I suspect it might have increased the need for glycine ? (which I can’t take since my body readily turns it into uric acid). Electrolyte balance became pretty fragile (towards increased need for calcium ?). I got more white hair.

    Lab results: tanked estrogen and vit D3, raised TSH

    It favored T4 production and accelerated estrogen breakdown. It also improved transsulfuration thus burning vit D3 (?).

    3 weeks after interrupting it I went to a birthday party and drank wine, then all the hell broke loose:

    • Profuse vomiting with onset of several intolerances and vit B1 deficiency
    • Sleeping with arms above the head (impaired breathing from sulfites)
    • Burning eyes
    • Sunlight sensitivity
    • (Slight) neck and (severe) trapezius pain esp. right after meals and under the sun
    • Rhinitis/sinusitis, MCS (all of a sudden my nose noticed that the cat litter we buy at the supermarket is moldy)
    • Disrupted sleep/cyrcadian rhythm

    The sleep disruption returned (waking up in the middle of the night, falling asleep again at 7 AM with chills. I experienced a sudden decline with MCS especially triggered by poor food choices due to overconfidence from being completely allergy-free (dried fruits). A minimal exposure to mild allergens triggered a severe rhinitis (flu like symptoms). I must avoid shampoos and soaps due to sulfites/glycerin and am back to the sodium bicarbonate scrub that helped me so much when I interrupted methylation.

    A huge difference between anti-glycation and MB12/Mfolate for me has been zero fatigue from anti-glycation. When I tried methylation, I wasn’t aware about sulfite issues and was consuming a huge amount of high sulfite foods (esp. coconut products).

    My husband took 400mg Beta-Alanine 1x with no benefits at all and since then has increased back and tendon (esp. forearms) pain and his joints are getting stiffer and stiffer. I wonder if he should take glycine? Chondroitin sulfate? Magnesium? Vit C? (I had cravings for high vit C non-citrus fruits while on carcinine).

    I read that anti-glycation supps inhibit collagen cross-linking, but will have to research what this means in practical terms.

    DH also has a swollen mucosa inside the mouth with blisters and skin blisters as a result of spiking and tanking transsulfuration/sulfation (?).

    I haven’t read the research re DAO enzymes, but I suppose that being +/+DAO makes for inefficient enzymes which consume much of the circulating B6 thus hindering its performance in other pathways. Both DH and I are +/+ DAO & +/+ for some SNPs for mold allergy.

    Interestingly, a couple of years ago I noticed the following upon consumption of coconut oil: even though I was completely infection/allergy-free while consuming it, my lymphocyte count dropped from ~1,800 to below 500 (I obeserved this relationship more than 1x). I am still to find a reasonable explanation to why it happens. I suppose the sulfites divert vit B6 from lymphocyte maturation to the transsulfuration pathway. Or cause B5 deficiency.

    Now I could finally put together a lot of symptoms that have puzzled me for a large part of my life. Poor fingernail cuticles, sleep disruption, tightening/swelling/drilling pain in the right trapezius, sun and heat intolerance, squinty eyes seem to be connected by poor transsulfuration/sulfation. I still have to learn about sulfites and phenols.

    Interesting compendium about sulfites - I haven’t read it in full yet, but it explains what nutrients help the pathways:

    Report #11 - The Detoxification System Part III: Sulfoxidation and Sulfation


    @picante @Asklipia @xena @Sidereal @Violeta @prioris @Lolinda @ahmo @Mary @Paralee @aaron_c @dannybex

    It would be interesting to have the input from others who have used anti-glycation supplements and comments about sulfite, phenol and salicylate issues. The key vitamins are B5 and B6 - more detalis in the document linked above.

    EDIT -- had I been wise enough from everything I already experienced, I should have taken the carcinine 1 - 2x weekly rather than daily, but the energy is addictive
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
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  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  3. CFS_for_19_years

    CFS_for_19_years Hoarder of biscuits

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    Where did you buy your Carcinine?
     
  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    From the compounding pharmacy under dr's prescription.
     
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  5. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland - I'm confused - wouldn't raised TSH indicate hypothyroid instead of hyper?

    I have been having early awakening, well, waking up to pee around 1:30 or 2:00 and having a terrible time going back to sleep, awake over 3 hours, and have been wondering if I am a bit hyperthyroid. I've been taking andrographis which I am almost positive stimulated my thyroid several weeks ago, I ended up cutting my Naturethroid dose. Then I got on a very low dose of andrographis and seemed to do okay with that, but got sick recently and had to increase it and then that horrible insomnia struck again .....
     
  6. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I have Hashi's and my thyroid fails to deliver to the hyperstimulation from B6 pathways, so I get a hyper peak immediately followed by hypo.
    I perosnally correlate this pattern with allergies/intolerances (sulfites, phenols, salicylates). The hyperthyroid pattern is the early wakening (5 - 5:30 AM). The hypothyroid pattern for me is to wake up 3:30 - 4:30 AM.
    Flu?

    I am not familiar with Andrographis.
     
  7. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    I get sick every time I crash (PEM) with a sinus infection of some sort and it makes me very tired. My sister (who does not have ME/CFS) had a very bad sinus infection a few months ago and her doctor (amazingly!) gave her an andrographis product and she recovered quite quickly. Andrographis is an herb, which modulates the immune system among other things.

    So I tried andrographis because I had been sick almost constantly because as soon I would start to recover I would crash again and get sick again, it was literally never-ending. the andrographis seems to be very powerful - when I was sick I took 3 a day, got better and then started having hyperthyroid symptoms, including this insomnia, so I cut back and ended up at 1/4 of a 400 mg. tablet per day and it really helped me from getting so sick all the time. But I got quite sick earlier this week (from a quite bad crash) and so had to increase the andrographis, and then boom! Bad insomnia again. I seem to be on a tightwire doing a balancing act, and keep falling off! :bang-head:
     
  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Oh my @Mary I'm sorry to hear that. I hope I don't get into this same vicious cycle as you as a prolongued side effect from stopping the anti-glycation supp :(
    I haven't had rhiintis in years and 2 days ago I had a sudden rhinitis onset and today my sinuses are all clogged up :ill:
    I can only correlate it with what is described above. It started with drinking wine last week, then MCS and now this.
     
    Lolinda likes this.
  9. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Do you get PEM? I've been doing this for over 10 years - crashing, then getting sick, etc. so for me, obviously my immune system is damaged in some way, I do have a low NK cell count. I've often wondered what is the link between PEM and my immune system.

    So I don't think the same thing would just happen to you as a side effect from stopping the anti-glycation supplement.

    I can tolerate wine (in moderation) and don't have MCS.

    Your experience with carcinine sounds very interesting, at least the first positive part of it! :) Sorry it was downhill from there :grumpy: Nothing is every simple with this DD! :sluggish:
     
  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Yes, like a lactic acid intolerance (everything hurts) - magnesium and sodium bicarbonate help a bit. WIth the anti-glycation sup I had no PEM. Above all I have inability to start any activity that requires a little more effort either mental or physical.
    It is a permanently moving target :eek:
     
    Mary likes this.
  11. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    I personally could not get any.
    Carcinine is available in Brazil, supposedly with a prescription, but it is for sale at several on-line pharmacies with no problem EXCEPT that they do not ship abroad. Name : GLYCOXIL. Do tell me if someone manages to get some!
     
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  12. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    The patent is hold by Exsymol from Monaco, and the chemical compound is carnosine less a COOH radical to reduce enzymatic affinity. It is carnosine actually.
    When my husband took Beta-Alanine I took ~60mg from it too, and felt the same as from carcinine. When I tried B-Alanine some time ago, it made me hypoglycemic - I think that my estrogen replacement right now is improving the effect of the supplements I take.

    BTW I will remove the name carcinine from the thread's title.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
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  13. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    I didn't know about Carcinine. Interesting.

    For anti-glycation, I just take
    one 500 mg capsule carnosine with 80+25 mg benfotiamine in morning.
    one 500 mg capsule carnosine in evening

    I also take with my morning dose with life extension selenium with NA-R-ALA (stabilized R-ALA)
    R-ALA is synergistic with carnosine. Selenium is for other things.

    Lot of research behind just carnosine.
    I'll stay away from the Carnicine hocus pocus ... LOL
     
  14. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    This seems like an interesting combo, since anty-glication supps seem to deplete sulfur. I wonder if selenium deficiency is what made my TSH raise.
    I don't think there is actually any difference between them at all. My husband tried Beta-Alanine with only detrimental effects (esp. joints & tendons).
     
    Lolinda likes this.
  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Another possibility for joint degeneration from anti-glycation sup is sulfur depletion.

    I am realizing I am dealing with two more or less separate issues here.

    After stopping anti-glycation supplementation, I had a blood test that showed plummeted estrogen. Then I started gorging on high Boron foods (also high sulfites). Having had wine tipped my balance over and I had B2 and B1 depletion - so not a direct consequence from anti-glycation sup, even though stopping it cold turkey might have abruptly put breaks on Transsulfuration / Sulfation which might have compounded the problem of MCS.
     
    Lolinda likes this.
  16. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

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    I used to take these not long ago as prevention because I rely on fructose, but carnosine is able to inhibit mTor, and other anti-glycation supps look likely to. Rutin (I took loads of this) unexpectedly can activate mTor but on the whole I got wary of these and currently take nothing.

    If I remember right the beta-alanine wasn't great to my joints either but I don't know why. There are warnings to balance it with taurine but that never helps my joints. Beta-alanine can apparently lower estrogen/estradiol but I would have looked for another reason first.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
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  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Thanks for you input @Tunguska
    Rutin was a miracle for me, but I am too trying to go by with the least supps I can. I took small amounts of Rutin in an enzyme combo that was very healing for PEM and generalized joint pain.
    I had garlic cravings while on carcinine, and my husband was amazed that I didn't have the least garlic breath afterwards. Without this supplement, if I ate any amount of garlic it would take almost 24h to clear from my breath/skin. So I suppose these supps do deplete sulfur and this could be the cause for joint degeneration. My reading of the report I linked at the OP is still a work in progress, and I am looking forward to reading the GAGs section.

    I have no doubt my tanked estrogen can be blamed on the supplementation.
     
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  18. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    So you guys got joint problems with beta-alanine but not with carnosine.

    how long did it take you to notice the joint problems and which joints were affected first.

    benfotiamine seems critical to the anti-glycation process. were you taking that ?
     
  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Both my hip joints felt wobbly on the 10th day of taking carcinine (=carnosine), while my husband complains from stiffness in almost all joints from a single dose of B-Alanine. Also interestingly I felt a calcium depletion (right calf cramp, teeth sensitivity, bleeding gums). There is an excellent explanation to all this here.
    I recently retried Benfo (before starting the carcinine) but got a headache. Now I know that taking them together would have been beneficial.
     
  20. prioris

    prioris Senior Member

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    Carnosine (beta-alanyl-L-histidine) is technically different from carcinine (beta-alanylhistamine)
     
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