New Atmosphere, New Vision: Gibson and Whittemore Kick Off Invest in ME Conference 2016
Mark Berry reports on Dr. Gibson's introduction and Dr. Whittemore's keynote speech, at the 11th Invest in ME International ME Conference in London.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Unfolded Protein Response and A Possible Treatment for CFS

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by mariovitali, May 3, 2015.

  1. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member

    Messages:
    868
    Likes:
    739
    @Valentijn @Violeta @Gondwanaland @ahmo @skwag @leela @jop @Tunguska

    I am tagging you all because this is very important.


    For the past two weeks i have noticed that my Heart was beating faster. I have a two floor apartment and so i have to use the stairs quite frequently. I noticed that getting to the top floor became more difficult and i had to breathe more heavily.

    My normal BPM is usually 62 and this has increased by 23 BPM on average. But what got me curious/worried was the shortness of Breath.

    The culrprit was NAC. I then find this which says that NAC may cause Pulmonary Hypertension :


    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070904175353.htm


    This means that for me, NAC is out. I will put that to the PDF i am preparing.


    @Valentijn I think that you are taking NAC as part of your regimen. I searched for Pulmonary function on the forum and i found a post from you and about an abnormal test you had regarding pulmonary function (?)

    FYI : Using an oximeter i found that my reading was 94%...on the lowest normal range. I know that an Oxymeter has limitations. Has anyone taken readings with an Oxymeter? How much Oxygen saturation have you found?


    And another thing. Dr Ben Lynch of MTHFR.NET now begins talking not just about MTHFR but for the importance of Liver, Phosphatidylcholine, Bile Acids and Creatine :


    http://chriskresser.com/what-influences-methylation-an-interview-with-dr-ben-lynch/


    For me he is spot on. I had delayed speech as a kid and have really hard time to put on muscle. I looked at my GAMT gene (discussed in the Interview) , i have no problems but my creatine levels are low perhaps. Will research that more.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
  2. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,281
    Likes:
    45,850
    My pulmonary function has tested completely normal since developing ME. But we seem to have different diagnoses, so I wouldn't expect us to react similarly to common supplements.

    I'd also point out that NAC has been tested long-term in HIV patients, with no substantial side-effects. Though anyone prone to cysteine-based kidney stones should of course avoid NAC.
     
  3. jop

    jop

    Messages:
    20
    Likes:
    28
    New Zealand
    Thanks @mariovitali. It seems that some of us react negatively to just about anything.

    I'm interested in the liver ideas because of the hammering mine has had with previous illness. My enzyme tests look ok though.

    I've been thinking about your data mining approach a bit but too tired to post more now.

    Hope you recover from the NAC experiment soon.
     
    mariovitali likes this.
  4. jump44

    jump44

    Messages:
    82
    Likes:
    51
    Hey guys been awhile just thought id update.

    been following the regimine for a few months. I would say It gave me about a 20-30% overall improvement in symptoms. Im thankful for that.

    I saw inosine being discussed a few posts up. I Just started immunovir per my doctor for my reactivated EBV and low nk cell count etc. Anyways I am only taking a half tablet and its my 3rd day but it has already cleared my brain up better than anything Ive tried to this point. also has given me a noticeable energy boost. Idk how this plays into your theory @mariovitali, but I thought I would report it here. Perhaps in my case the immune system is a key player along with the liver. Anyways good to see this thread is still ticking, its super helpful. I will keep reporting the furhter into my immunovir/ldn treatment I get. I am continuing with Tudca, choline/inositol, some methylation, and selenium/fmn.
     
  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,382
    Likes:
    6,641
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    thanks for the heads-up @mariovitali I don't use NAC. I haven't had the energy to post my detox profile yet, have not forgotten. Life has intervened. soon.
     
  6. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member

    Messages:
    868
    Likes:
    739
    @jump44

    The active ingredient of Immunovir is Isoprinosine. From searching PubMed there are quite a few entries for Immunomodulation after Liver Injury/ Cirrhosis.


    Please also see : "The Liver as an immunological organ"


    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/stor...6p&s=cb2d649ac31ac12c416f1d6ebd46440f9bcf6d24

    In other words, the Hypothesis is that Immune dysfunction originates from Liver injury and Oxidative/ER Stress which is uncontrolled.


    Could you have a look at your Bile Acid levels?
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2015
  7. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member

    Messages:
    868
    Likes:
    739
    @jump44 How much TUDCA are you taking? 500 mg?

    Also are you still taking Shilajt and LDN?
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
  8. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member

    Messages:
    868
    Likes:
    739
    I finished a new Classification Analysis, wishing to identify potentially interesting hypotheses regarding the symptoms of CFS, PFS, Post-Accutane syndrome, etc.

    Using a classifier called "Random Forests" i get an F-Measure (F1) of 0.84 for those that are interested. Unfortunately Random Forests do not tell us a lot of things regarding how they make their predictions but they can tell us which features are part of the solution (=differentiate Symptoms vs No-Symptoms in our case).

    Note : The data that was used for the analysis were created using highly experimental methods. I do not wish to make any claims.

    Here is the snapshot. it lists attributes in their order of importance :


    Screen Shot 2015-12-17 at 15.41.46.png


    As you can see, Oxidative stress Markers are on the top of the most important attributes. Notice how Choline deficiency, Taurine, Glutamate, iNOS, Solute Carriers (discussed by @ppodhajski), Isoprostane (Biomarker of Oxidative stress) and TBARS are also there (TBARS is used for measuring the damage done by ROS).





     
  9. jump44

    jump44

    Messages:
    82
    Likes:
    51
    500mg of TUDCA most days/250 on some. The shilajit is in the Ubiquinol formula from life extension that I take. I believe its 200mg so not a huge amount.. Yes I am up to 1.5mg of ldn per night now as well.
     
  10. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member

    Messages:
    868
    Likes:
    739
    OK Great... as discussed please let me know when you have your DNA Data available.

    Consider also taking Taurine (i take just 300 mg) and see how you feel. TUDCA is typically given at 15-20 mg per Kilogram body weight so you could try increasing the dose and evaluate.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
  11. jump44

    jump44

    Messages:
    82
    Likes:
    51
    Thanks @mariovitali .. I do take Taurine as well usually every other day, its a 500 mg pill w 10mg of B6.. Id love to increase the TUDCA dosage its just damn expensive and Im only working part time right now so tryin to make the bottles last longer. Also you guys mentioned activated bs earlier. I have taken the drs best activated B complex 3 times now and once it made me feel good the other two times I had a weird depression descend on me the day after taking it.. ANy ideas on that? so weird. Most people would probably take that and either not feel anything or have more energy.
     
  12. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

    Messages:
    508
    Likes:
    486
    About NAC, on other forums, more paranoid people than us are concerned about its anti mucous activity and some negative blood brain barrier effects found on animals. I only take it in increased sickness and chronic use no longer gave me any benefit, rather a dumbening effect.

    About TUDCA, the best effect I've had thus far and consistent is, especially when combined with coconut oil, it noticeably increases blood flow and perceptible body temperature (offsetting choline). Hence the possibility its effects have to do with improved thyroid receptors or whatnot.
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  13. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,720
    Likes:
    3,704
    I got that effect from coconut oil only FWIW
     
  14. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member

    Messages:
    868
    Likes:
    739
    @Tunguska, @Gondwanaland

    What you said about Coconut Oil appeared interesting. So what i normally do is to use this as a query to my Software :


    Note how may results toward the top have to to do with Choline, Redox homeostasis and Bile Acids. I only now begin to understand the importance of Bile Acids and Coconut oil is spot on . I believe that the reason lies to the fact that Coconut Oil is rich in Medium-Chain Fatty Acids. Here is why :



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium-chain_triglyceride


    So Coconut Oil does not require Bile Acids for its absorption which as a result puts less burden to the Enterohepatic system.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2015
  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,720
    Likes:
    3,704
  16. wastwater

    wastwater Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes:
    688
    uk
    I kind of do word matching and was lead to these points of interest.
    CADASIL a rare genetic disorder
    Notch signalling pathway
    And there is a paper on phonix rising from about 2012 about choline
    cAMP choline connections just Internet search for that
    Botulism/tetanus can effect choline
    Unfortunately I have no idea if any of this is of interest what it means or what it relates to
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2015
  17. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member

    Messages:
    868
    Likes:
    739
    @Gondwanaland Thanks for the link, really interesting


    @wastwater i do not see any connection with CADASIL. Regarding Choline yes, well spotted.
     
  18. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member

    Messages:
    868
    Likes:
    739
    Just a small update :

    As disucssed, I started working with some people who are willing to follow the regimen in its entirety and have all the necessary blood tests (mainly Liver panel and Total Bile Acids).


    I continue looking for creating a Predictive Model which might explain what is going on : The latest predictive model achieves accuracy of 0.91. Please see it below :

    Rplot.png

    The chart shows the important parameters that differentiate the existence/absence of Symptoms on the dataset that was analyzed.




    PDHC is Pyruvate Dehydrogenase Complex. It appears that Liver Disease is by far the most important factor. Note also acetylcholine, uric acid,probiotics,excitotoxicity, IgA, Cortisol and norepinephrine appear to be important elements.


    I will post again as soon as i have updates from the people that follow the regimen. So far, ALL of them have used either Antibiotics or Accutane or Finasteride or Ciprofloxacin or -that's a new one which will be added to the list- Methotrexate or they got a viral disease such as EBV.
     
    Sancar likes this.
  19. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,643
    Likes:
    973
    @mariovitali , do you know uric acid's part in the picture? For example, what does it cause, how does one deal with it?
     
    Sancar likes this.
  20. mariovitali

    mariovitali Senior Member

    Messages:
    868
    Likes:
    739
    @Violeta


    I think this :


     
    Sancar and Violeta like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page