How do we stop Liver disease (Fatty Liver, Hepatic Statosis, type 2 diabetes, mitochondrial disease)

[prioris]

Look into chanca-piedra, also Bryophyllum pinnatum which I wouldn't take but my mother took it about 25 years ago when she was passing stones and swear by it.

chanca piedra is what i've been taking, also pure lemon juice. i also use uva ursi sometimes just to make sure no infections are brewing. normally it would work. the stone probably grew too large. i think stone is caught near opening of bladder where ureter narrows.

Interesting ...

Health benefits of Bryophyllum:
1. Treats Kidney stones-

• In case of kidney stones, give 40-50 ml decoction of whole plant twice a day.
• You an also give the decoction with 500 mg shilajit and 2 gm of honey mixed in it.
• Give this twice a day, it cures bilestone easily.

2. Useful in Urinary disorders-

• Give 5 ml juice of its leaves to the patient suffering from thirst and any disorder related to urinary system. It is a very good and effective cure.
• In case of urine related disorder in men, give 40-60 ml of its decoction with 2 gm honey mixed in it.
• Give this twice a day.

 

[Eastman]

I guess B3 can be blamed for both, not sure about others

B1 is sometimes considered protective for the kidney.

High-dose thiamine therapy for patients with type 2 diabetes and microalbuminuria: a randomised, double-blind placebo-controlled pilot study

But even for B3, it is not so clear-cut.

Surprising Result Shows Kidney, Mortality Benefits of Niacin

Dietary nicotinic acid supplementation ameliorates chronic alcohol-induced fatty liver in rats.

 

[dannybex]

You are right that carb intake has gotten associated with fatty liver, large doses of fructose being the worst. But it's more a result of insufficient protein and choline intake to back up the carbs.

In general choline and high protein can fix many cases of fatty liver over time. But choline intake is problematic because although it can cure fatty liver, the absorption through diet can be poor and cause unrelated problems. Fatty liver per se isn't strictly a disease because it can happen as a normal response, but it can also happen through disease pathology. I haven't posted in this thread because I didn't feel like collecting links to the studies which are plastered all over another forum. But basically, high protein + choline + (high taurine or TUDCA) will eliminate it over time.

Choline can also be a problem if it leads to high acetcylcholine, which can happen if one's acetylcholinesterase enzyme is inhibited or not functioning well. High acetylcholine isn't fun at all:

http://mindrenewal.us/page13.html

Problems with choline metabolism has been studied in ME/CFS:

http://www.clinsci.org/content/106/2/183

Fortunately there are some things that help restore acetylcholinesterase, like carnitine, B12, and melatonin. But the key is probably to find out what is inhibiting it -- perhaps like pesticides mentioned in the study above -- and solanine, found in nightshade vegetables like tomatoes, potatoes, bell peppers, etc.

 

[Eastman]

You are right that carb intake has gotten associated with fatty liver, large doses of fructose being the worst. But it's more a result of insufficient protein and choline intake to back up the carbs.

I learnt the importance of choline in liver health from Chris Masterjohn:

... in our own decade, researchers have shown that choline deficiency likewise causes fatty liver in humans. Thus, choline eventually proved capable of preventing fatty liver regardless of whether it was induced by feeding sugar, fat, or alcohol. These studies suggested that virtually any form of energy delivered to the liver can cause the accumulation of fat, so long as key nutrients needed to metabolize that energy—such as choline—were missing.

...high protein + choline + (high taurine or TUDCA) will eliminate it over time.

I was wondering when someone was going to mention TUDCA.

Fortunately there are some things that help restore acetylcholinesterase, like carnitine, B12, and melatonin.

Can those things overdrive acetylcholinesterase?

 

[mariovitali]

I definitely agree with Niacin. Upon taking it i felt really bad and then saw several references saying that it should not be used by people having chronic Liver disease.

http://www.umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/vitamin-b3-niacin

http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/niacin--niacinamide/safety/hrb-20059838

 

[prioris]

I've dabbled in TUDCA. It's a better alternative than plain Silymarin. Not sure how it compares to Siliphos.

Without Lithium Orotate, I wouldn't have been able to take any choline or B12 or MethylFolate.

 

[Gondwanaland]

nd solanine, found in nightshade vegetables like tomatoes, potatoes, bell peppers, etc.

Could you please direct me to where I could read more about it?

 

[Tunguska]

@dannybex @Eastman Yep familiar with those but better to spell them out.

The taurine/TUDCA improves the efficacity of protein usage and simultaneously cover a few pathologies that may contribute to fatty liver, and may prevent some problems from high protein, so it naturally pairs with high protein intake as a catch-all solution. Short version.

It's not strictly niacin, some of the others such as Thiamine increase fatty acid synthesis/DNL and if this isn't compensated for in export (mainly via choline) then fat accumulates. But you don't worry about this too much unless you're taking them for longer periods.

@dannybex High protein/methionine acts as a surrogate for choline (and vice-versa) to a degree and in some of the studies high protein alone fixes fatty liver so high-protein+taurine could be enough, but if you tolerate choline you might as well put the odds on your side. There's also betaine but it's not automatically a full substitute and the studies were mixed. Caffeine also mobilizes fats very well.

 

[prioris]

Here are my notes from a couple mionths ago on TUDCA

The most effective Bile salt is TUDCA.

TUDCA is just UDCA wth taurine molecule attached while UDCA can only be gotten only thru prescription and be way more expensive. There may be patents on UDCA.

Bile acids are the most potent agents which increase bile flow, especially unconjugated bile acids. Doses (13-15 mg/kg per day) UDCA becomes the predominant bile

UDCA stimulates biliary secretion of bile acids and other organic compounds (e.g. bilirubin glucuronides, glutathione conjugates, bromosulfophthalein)

Dosing of TUDCA and UDCA: 500mg daily for the maintenance of healthy liver function during the use of a C17AA oral during a cycle. 1,000mg or higher daily for the purpose of repairing the liver following heavy hepatotoxicity and hepatocyte damage from cholestasis (and/or for individuals with serious liver disorders).

IMPORTANT: Do not exceed 8 weeks of TUDCA/UDCA use, as it can increase negative cholesterol values. It is reccomended to use these bile salts only during a cycle of oral C17AA anabolic steroids, or for the purpose of liver repair following periods of significant hepatotoxicity from the use of these compounds. Other compounds should be sought after for general year-round liver support.

RESULTS:

The dose of 900 mg/day produced the greatest enrichment of UDCA in serum bile acids; although there was no difference in the enrichment of UDCA between the different doses. There was a trend towards normalization of the abnormal LFTs in a dose-dependent manner (for y-glutamyl transferase (yGT), alkaline phosphatase (ALP), alanine transaminase (ALT) and IgM). Multi-factorial analysis showed that UDCA treatment, irrespective of dose, was significantly better than placebo for all the variables. The 900 and 1200 mg doses were better than both 300 and 600 mg using yGT and total bilirubin as variables, better than 300 mg using ALP and IgM as variables, and better than 600 mg using albumin as a variable. No variables showed a significant difference between 900 and 1200 mg.

CONCLUSION:

The optimum dose of UDCA is 900 mg/day (equivalent to 13.5 mg/kg/day).

How to take Ursodeoxycholic Acid

Always take Ursodeoxycholic Acid exactly as your doctor has told you. You should check with your doctor or pharmacist if you are not sure.

The usual dose is between 3 and 4 tablets a day. The dose is usually divided up and taken twice a day, i.e. 1 or 2 tablets taken with water after meals. One of the doses should always be taken after your evening meal.

Ursodeoxycholic Acid will work best if taken together with a low cholesterol and calorie controlled diet. You should discuss this with your doctor.

You will not normally take Ursodeoxycholic Acid for more than 2 years. Your doctor will give you regular check-ups.

 

[dannybex]

Could you please direct me to where I could read more about it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanine

 

[dannybex]

Can those things overdrive acetylcholinesterase?

"Overdrive"? I have no idea. Again, perhaps the main issue is to address what might be inhibiting the enzyme. Just a guess though...

 

[dannybex]

I definitely agree with Niacin. Upon taking it i felt really bad and then saw several references saying that it should not be used by people having chronic Liver disease.

http://www.umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/vitamin-b3-niacin

http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/niacin--niacinamide/safety/hrb-20059838

Both of those links refer to niacin and niacinamide, which from what I've read have different effects on the liver. But of course liver enzymes, blood sugar, etc., should be monitored during any long term use.

 

[dannybex]

@dannybex @Eastman
It's not strictly niacin, some of the others such as Thiamine increase fatty acid synthesis/DNL and if this isn't compensated for in export (mainly via choline) then fat accumulates. But you don't worry about this too much unless you're taking them for longer periods.

Do you have a reference or references for the thiamine w/out choline claim? Also, what does 'DNL' stand for?

Thanks in advance.

 

[dannybex]

With regards to TUDCA and gallbladder function, this study links highest carb intake to higher levels of billary 'sludge'':

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23442841

There may be a hormonal component as well, since this study involved pregnant women.

 

[taniaaust1]

my specialist once told me that he could fix his patients fatty lives just with a diet for a very short time (he may of said a week).

 

[dannybex]

Yes, that is a possibility.

Just not with some of us who are already very thin, yet have fatty liver issues.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thiamine increase fatty acid synthesis/DNL and if this isn't compensated for in export (mainly via choline) then fat accumulates.

my specialist once told me that he could fix his patients fatty lives just with a diet for a very short time (he may of said a week).

For several years now I go for abdomen US scans every year with an exceptional dr. I wish he was my practitioner, but he only does US for a living.
So last time my US showed a fatty liver was in 2012, because in 2013 I had been gone gluten free 2 months prior to my annual US, and then the dr said "hey, there is no trace of fat in you liver!"

However, my integrative dr measures my body composition 3-4x per year, and my lean mass/ fat ratio is not good despite my low weight (underweight).

There is something that nobody pays attention to, and it might just be a theory, about fatty pancreas. It could explain why lean people gets diabetes while overweight people don't. I think dr Mosley explains it in his book.

 

[Tunguska]

Do you have a reference or references for the thiamine w/out choline claim? Also, what does 'DNL' stand for?

DNL is de novo lipogenesis. About thiamine the last study I read was this old one http://www.jbc.org/content/141/2/619.full.pdf granted there have been serious problems comparing rat livers to humans w.r.t. DNL but I think it holds for this. With protocols like 1500mg thiamine/day you can bank on it.

 

[dannybex]

DNL is de novo lipogenesis. About thiamine the last study I read was this old one http://www.jbc.org/content/141/2/619.full.pdf granted there have been serious problems comparing rat livers to humans w.r.t. DNL but I think it holds for this. With protocols like 1500mg thiamine/day you can bank on it.

Interesting. I'll try to see if I can find some more studies. I've been taking thiamine -- not 1500 mgs/day -- but often about 600, typically in the form of benfotiamine, but also sometimes thiamine itself. Thiamine injections helped me dramatically about 12 years ago, but could only afford them for a short time. Plus back then I was also taking a high dose probiotic, so that may have influenced the improvement.

But I'm sure you're aware of the study that found high-dose thiamine helping fibro patients. I think that was 1500mgs a day. I think it was a small case study, however one of the main participants was still doing well 3 or 4 years later.

Here's the (very) small study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3669831/

"Patient numbers 2 and 3 never reported any improvement until the dose was increased up to 1500 mg/day, orally. An abrupt improvement instead occurred at doses of 1800 mg/day."

 

[prioris]

pancreas ...
The importance of clearing out stones is not only important for the gallbladder, kidney and bladder but also to prevent them from entering and building up in the pancreas which usually come from gallbladder. This was another reason why I wanted to cleanse the stones from gallbladder. It would be preventative for pancreas problems too.

on the kidney stone front ...
I don't have the kidney stone pain I had last couple days so stone probably dissolved in ureter somewhat to allow more fluid to pass. Kidney pain happens when ureter gets stretched by water pressure on stone within ureter. I notice bouncing up and down on toes which helps water leak between stone and ureter helped decrease pain the days before. I think I got stones that are still clogging kidney/bladder area to some degree but not the real painful ones (yet ... LOL). It's more subtle. I could have had this for a while and not knew it. Stones can build up silently.

Since I have no scans to prove it but do I want to know I got 1 foot diameter stone in there .... probably not now ... lol. , I have to try to read my own body. I'll just continue to use liquid remedies including water until I can sense otherwise. Maybe at some point down the road when I think I accomplished it, I may do a scan to verify it. I learn as I go. I started fixing one thing which leads me to discover other broken things that need fixing which in turn leads to other things. I hope this all resolves soon.