Homeopathy

[Angela Kennedy]

Just found this short video of Ben Goldacre at Nerdstock talking about placebos : [video=youtube;O1Q3jZw4FGs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Q3jZw4FGs[/video]

Very entertaining. Scientific? Nope. Mostly a rehash of his claims in his book. LOTS of problems with those anecdotes. For someone who is supposed to be against 'Bad Science', it is so very troubling that he cannot apply his critical faculties to 'mind over body' beliefs and the methodological and theoretical problems in 'placebo effect' research and the claims made.

 

[Mark]

I must confess, I find it a bit of a challenge to credit that he and the researchers just happened to specifically choose asthma and muscle relaxation to 'prove' the nocebo effect because of their sheer stupidity and not with the deliberate intention to deceive. But giving them the benefit of the doubt (unlike Goldacre, I try not to characterise people I disagree with that way, if I can help it), maybe they just proved the power of confirmation bias, and picked out the results that best showed what they wanted to show, without thinking it through - we're all potentially prone to that, it's a constant struggle.

"Sit a hundred people down with asthma, put a saline nebuliser on their face, tell them it's an allergen, bang! half of them have an asthma attack!"

Hahahahahaha!

Oh what fun! And all in the name of science! What a groundbreaking finding, though: you can give asthmatics asthma attacks just by scaring them! That'll come in handy, I'd never have guessed that. But there's clearly something about these ethics approval boards I'm not understanding...something about the way everyone laughed at that one sounded almost sadistic to me...but it must all be above board, it was officially approved research, after all...and this is the age of the battery human...

So: with that stuff about the muscle relaxant and the treadmill (it definitely is just a muscle relaxant, by the way, no question about that, even though...hmm...if you tell people it isn't a muscle relaxant, it doesn't relax their muscles...hmm...)...what it all seems to me to boil down to is that what you say to people can make them feel more relaxed, or make them feel more tense, depending on what you say...and that their wonderful new drug isn't as powerful (at this dosage) as just talking to people...

Doesn't sound that revolutionary a concept to me, I'm quite familiar with people saying things to me that make me feel tense. Happens a lot on Ben Goldacre's web site actually: good meditation skills are handy for any ME patient wandering over there and planning to preserve their sanity. Not sure exactly what making people feel tense by scaring them has to do with the 'placebo/nocebo effect' though.

One would have hoped that a man with such acute awareness of the effect that people's words can have on each other's well-being, and a believer in the power of stress to cause disease, would be a little bit more cautious than to set up a web site with a forum dedicated to 'the great british sport of moron baiting', light the blue touch paper, and stand well back while the members exercise their darker instincts on the sick...but then, this is a man determined to defend people's right to call each other morons on his site, the justification for that being that they are morons (it's surely nothing to do with them being sufficiently vulnerable and powerless for him to get away with it). I guess he gets his confidence about the stupidity of everyone else from noting how unquestioning they are when he explains to them how things work. No...that can't be it...it's people who disagree with him who are morons...or frauds...

Perhaps his next book will be about circular reasoning...

 

[biophile]

Ah, these "amazing powers"! Massive overstatement is so common whenever it comes to mind over body discussions, so just like all these wonderful claims about the CBT in CFS, everything he said may be seen in a totally new light if we saw the actual statistics for these studies.

I wouldn't even take "half of them had an asthma attack" at face value, it might be like the "70% of patients recover from CFS after CBT" claim. Not that I dispute the notion that nocebo-induced anxiety can have such effects on conditioned responses, I'm just weary of exaggerations.

On mechanisms, he implies the blood levels of muscle relaxant were increased because the mind "believed" in the power of the drug, but there are alternative explanations, the relatively increased levels of relaxation in that group or anxiety in the other groups affected absorption and/or elimination of the drug. Also, how much muscle relaxant did they get?

This reminds me of another thread on an article which stated that a patient receiving a negative prognosis can make it come true because the "mind creates what it believes", but I think it is inaccurate wording because it implies the mind is simply manifesting beliefs rather than mental states having downstream biological consequences which just happen to interact with the illness or state in question. I don't think this is hair splitting because it is exactly these sort of simplistic notions which fuel the hyperbole and illusion/myth of control that is inherent in mind over body beliefs.

 

[Angela Kennedy]

Ah, these "amazing powers"! Massive overstatement is so common whenever it comes to mind over body discussions, so just like all these wonderful claims about the CBT in CFS, everything he said may be seen in a totally new light if we saw the actual statistics for these studies.

I wouldn't even take "half of them had an asthma attack" at face value, it might be like the "70% of patients recover from CFS after CBT" claim. Not that I dispute the notion that nocebo-induced anxiety can have such effects on conditioned responses, I'm just weary of exaggerations.

On mechanisms, he implies the blood levels of muscle relaxant were increased because the mind "believed" in the power of the drug, but there are alternative explanations, the relatively increased levels of relaxation in that group or anxiety in the other groups affected absorption and/or elimination of the drug. Also, how much muscle relaxant did they get?

This reminds me of another thread on an article which stated that a patient receiving a negative prognosis can make it come true because the "mind creates what it believes", but I think it is inaccurate wording because it implies the mind is simply manifesting beliefs rather than mental states having downstream biological consequences which just happen to interact with the illness or state in question. I don't think this is hair splitting because it is exactly these sort of simplistic notions which fuel the hyperbole and illusion/myth of control that is inherent in mind over body beliefs.

Yes I agree Biophile and Mark.

It looked like there he was taking studies that show merely some physiological effects actually associated with psychological states, and claiming they're 'placebo' or 'nocebo' effects, as if there really is this amazing 'mind-body' effect from mere 'suggestion', to ever increasing degrees.

The beauty of 'Nerdstock', of course, is that he didn't have to cite his references. When he does, as in his book, you do see how insubstantial the 'evidence' actually is.

 

[zoe.a.m.]

I didn't see this posted elsewhere, but it's quite an interesting bit of information: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/luc-montagnier-homeopathy-taken-seriously_b_814619.html

 

[moblet]

I didn't see this posted elsewhere, but it's quite an interesting bit of information: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/luc-montagnier-homeopathy-taken-seriously_b_814619.html

Very. It's a biased (pro-homeopathy) source, but it still reliably demonstrates that science is, and perhaps increasingly, a social and economic process. A true skeptic would be alert to any signs in the scientific community of evidence or findings being subverted in favour of social acceptance, or hypotheses being derided because of the implications of them being proven, yet ironically skepticism itself has become a social process with its own targets and taboos. In a "scientific community" it is possible to ensure that certain hypotheses never get tested by howling down anyone who proposes them, and ostracising those who explore them, such that only those in Montagnier's position have the freedom to think independently. The big question for me is not so much the implications for homeopathy - to me this isn't about homeopathy but about the impartiality of the scientific process - but for everything that is taken for granted as "scientifically proven". I've already found that I can't completely trust any drug study because my ANS dysfunction is invisible to, and never factored in, the studies. The rise of China and India should be very healthy for science if it can cultivate scientific communities with different cultural biases; between the three of them hopefully no stones will be deliberately left unturned, and scientists everywhere would have to drop their cultural biases in order to compete in the field. I have no idea whether Montagnier's on to something, or if he's lost his marbles, but if he does come up with something, the fact that it will have come out of China, because the West would hear none of it, would cause an almighty splash.

 

[Wayne]

I didn't see this posted elsewhere, but it's quite an interesting bit of information: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/luc-montagnier-homeopathy-taken-seriously_b_814619.html

Hi Zoe, thanks for posting this. Remarkable article; enough to make even the hard core skeptics pause.

Best, Wayne

 

[Mark]

Very nice post moblet, welcome to the forums. :Retro smile:

The Montagnier piece can be seen as an 'appeal to authority' kind of argument, but dismissing it that way is missing the value that it does have: it's proof that people who believe there may be some truth in homeopathy are not all unscientific idiots. Since many people do try to paint the argument that way, at that point the appeal to Montagnier's authority does become a valid logical argument - not for the truth of homeopathy, but against the character attacks that proponents are often subjected to. Too often people just respond with "appeal to authority, invalid argument", without considering what the authority of Montagnier does prove. Mainly because, rather than thinking beyond their own prejudices and assumptions, they prefer to treat intelligent people with disrespect...

 

[Dr. Nancy Malik]

Nobel Laureate's paper was published in
Interdisci*plinary Sciences: Life Sciences (SpringerL*ink)

Electromag*netic signals are produced by aqueous nanostruct*ures derived from bacterial DNA Sequences (2009)

http://www.homeopathyeurope.org/downloads/MontagnierElectromadneticSignals.pdf //
highly diluted bacteria and virus DNA emits electromag*netic signals (low frequency radio waves) at 5C and 6C potencies and forms nano-struc*tures. The radio waves affected water molecules, and the water molecules remembered and emitted radio waves.

 

[Emmanuelle]

WOW! I just read that whole string of threads ... I guess we are a passionate people, huh? I always say, "Whatever works." If something makes you feel better-- great! Keep doing it. If something doesn't work-- OR-- if you don't believe something could possibly work, by all means: don't use it.

I gave birth at home because I felt safer. (Very experienced nurse midwives.) But I always tell other women, if you feel safer in a hospital, you should give birth there. If someone has cancer, they might choose to use chemotherapy or might prefer herbs-- or a combination. It's not my place to judge either way.

Each of us is different-- physically, psychologically, mentally, spiritually-- and what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. This should be clear from "modern medicine" as well as homeopathy. But the bottom line is, it's up to each of us to choose. I respect everyone's right to choose the treatment that seems best for them, (and to choose another at another time.) I'm curious to hear what others are doing; I don't need them to prove that it works or how it works. I read about studies because I'm hopeful and curious; but I also know that even "scientific" studies can be flawed or biased and I take them with a grain of healthy skepticism.

I get riled up about these things. I'm passionate about my beliefs. And I don't have the energy to fight about it ...

WHATEVER WORKS.

(And, yes, I do use homeopathy. No, it hasn't cured me. Nor have any of the hundreds of other things I have tried over the years.)

 

[Dr. Nancy Malik]

WOW! I just read that whole string of threads ... I guess we are a passionate people, huh? I always say, "Whatever works." If something makes you feel better-- great! Keep doing it. If something doesn't work-- OR-- if you don't believe something could possibly work, by all means: don't use it.

I gave birth at home because I felt safer. (Very experienced nurse midwives.) But I always tell other women, if you feel safer in a hospital, you should give birth there. If someone has cancer, they might choose to use chemotherapy or might prefer herbs-- or a combination. It's not my place to judge either way.

Each of us is different-- physically, psychologically, mentally, spiritually-- and what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. This should be clear from "modern medicine" as well as homeopathy. But the bottom line is, it's up to each of us to choose. I respect everyone's right to choose the treatment that seems best for them, (and to choose another at another time.) I'm curious to hear what others are doing; I don't need them to prove that it works or how it works. I read about studies because I'm hopeful and curious; but I also know that even "scientific" studies can be flawed or biased and I take them with a grain of healthy skepticism.

I get riled up about these things. I'm passionate about my beliefs. And I don't have the energy to fight about it ...

WHATEVER WORKS.

(And, yes, I do use homeopathy. No, it hasn't cured me. Nor have any of the hundreds of other things I have tried over the years.)

I agree.

Many of the things cannot be explained completely by science and that is the beauty and the wonder of life. You can either live in the mainstream and wait until its widely accepted, then you believe it, or you can look back thousands of years and believe what your forefathers believed before 'science' came along.

another beauty of life is that not everything works for everyone, e.g. the same medicine works for some, and not for others. we got to find what works for you, and if it doesnot its not the right thing for you but still may be for someone else.

 

[Emmanuelle]

Ah, these "amazing powers"! Massive overstatement is so common whenever it comes to mind over body discussions, so just like all these wonderful claims about the CBT in CFS, everything he said may be seen in a totally new light if we saw the actual statistics for these studies.

I wouldn't even take "half of them had an asthma attack" at face value, it might be like the "70% of patients recover from CFS after CBT" claim. Not that I dispute the notion that nocebo-induced anxiety can have such effects on conditioned responses, I'm just weary of exaggerations.

On mechanisms, he implies the blood levels of muscle relaxant were increased because the mind "believed" in the power of the drug, but there are alternative explanations, the relatively increased levels of relaxation in that group or anxiety in the other groups affected absorption and/or elimination of the drug. Also, how much muscle relaxant did they get?

This reminds me of another thread on an article which stated that a patient receiving a negative prognosis can make it come true because the "mind creates what it believes", but I think it is inaccurate wording because it implies the mind is simply manifesting beliefs rather than mental states having downstream biological consequences which just happen to interact with the illness or state in question. I don't think this is hair splitting because it is exactly these sort of simplistic notions which fuel the hyperbole and illusion/myth of control that is inherent in mind over body beliefs.

If the correlation between BELIEF and outcome were certain, I would have been cured years ago.......

 

[nanciswell]

My healing experience with homeopathy.. it can be great...

I had a permanent healing of very bad hypoglyemia using homeopathic sulfur, this before I was avoiding stressors in my life .

I got over severe anxiety using homeopathy.

Right now after 35 years of little progress with this illness and using many other treatments , I am taking homeopathic nosode therapy for my endocrine organs . I have had a reasonably good few months ,. . The two months ago when I first started these current homeopathics I was in severe problems with exhaustion and sweating. I had a major improvement with taking homeopathic hypothalamus.. even my extremely oily hair became luxurious again..

My constant fevers have gone with homeopathic thymus. My high need for sulfate supplementation is gone with adding in homeopathic thalamus and parathyroid. I am sleeping quite well..I have really appreciated these few months..

In my case I have found that alot of homeopathy did not work with me because my body was still under stress.. in my case with chemical/ food sensitivities. Since going on a total exclusiond diet and avoiding the particular triggers for my system, homeopathics which I had tried before doing an exclusion diet are working very well.

.. Homeopathy has been the one of the best healers for me..


It may not be a cure but it has given me some of my life back.

My dog .... had cushings disease.. One little bottle of homeopathic ACTH hormone and she avoided surgery, avoided drugs and lived perfectly healthy for another three years full of energy and definitely alot more happy.

 

[hoMEy]

i highly recommend "complex homeopathy" a la Dr. Reckeweg. apparently better for chronic longterm illnesses and sidesteps practitioner skill in choosing the correct remedy. and you should feel worse, no-one ever got over illness without feeling worse first. look at flu in "healthy" folk....they feel worse as soon as the fight is on. that physical body intelligence is lost in chronic illness and homeopathy faciltates it's re-activation.

http://forum2.aimoo.com/UnitedStatesofAmerica/General/Complex-Homeopathy-1-591533.html

http://www.hmedicine.com/homeopathic/brand/reckeweg

 

[nanciswell]

Reposting my great homeopathic healing here.

I will share my experience with adrenals.

I tried taking hydrocortisone cream last March 2010.. I felt an improvement . Then started to notice my gut get worse.. Ending up with severe constipation which has still not corrected a year later.!!

Now I cannot say for sure but I do suspect it was the actual HC that made me worse. I tried a cream which had the chemical called propylene glycol { natural antifreeze} Then I went onto a compounded HC and still felt bad. Originally I had blamed the propylene glycol for the constipation.> BUt now I am suspecting more the affects of the actual HC..



I had started doing frequent dose chelation Sept of 2010.. I had noticed something in Nov 2010 that was changing.. My hair got unbeleivable oily.. My hair has always been perfect.. Able to wash once every ten days if I wanted to.. Then got so oily pretty well overnight that I had to wash every day and had to use alot of soap..

THen had a crisis after a chelation round at Christmas 2010.. Severe exhaustion ,could not sleep, severe sweating all day long.. very scared .. did not go to hospital as I have been there without any help before.

I started taking the hypothalamus homeopathic a couple of weeks later and things began to improve. dramatically. Within three days my hair was back to it glorius self.

Then the sweats stopped. Then I noticed how my manic/ hyper feelings started to balance to a more calm. I started to sleep better.

I did this for two months then someone mentioned taking other hormonal gland homeopathics.

I first added in thymuline .. a homeopathic of thymulin.. .. I have had a feeling of always having a fever.. feeling like I would be getting a virus the next day.. yet never came down with anything.. This fluey feeling went away on H thymuline.

THen I added in thymus homeopathic.. .I felt more energy and calm that whole day.. . I awoke during the night feeling in a panic.. hard time breathing, THe panic was . a totally new symptom for me . I took another dose of thymus during the night and the panic stopped and I went back to sleep .. This happened twice more that night.. This continued for another week..

The positive affects have been major. I do not need to take sulfate supplemetation as I did before.. Previously I needed epsom salts baths / soaks a few times a day and again during the night if I woke up. I have not had any now for four days and am doing fine.

Before when I had interstitial cystitis pain having an epsom salts soak would relieve the pain.> Now I take a dose of thymus and the pain goes away.

And when I am having a food reaction to salicylates in pears , I get sleepy and my gut hurts.. Now I take a dose of thymus H and I feel better.

I added in homeopathic parathyroid day 7 after starting the thymus H. 14 days later I am now sleeping through the night without any waking up.. The parathyroid gland balances things out during the night.. SO my theory is that the thymus H was making my body do an adjustment and that the parathyroid H may have helped this adjustment?

The other hormone glandulars are pineal which makes melatonin, and pancreas. I did try the pineal a few times a couple of months ago.. The first night it really soothed my nerves but it did not hold..

I have not tried the pancreas for a couple of years..

What i would like to point out is that I had tried all most of these homeopathics before doing a total exclusion diet. I did notice improvements but very , very small in comparison to now.. Before stopping all foods/ chemicals I am sensitive to , my adrenals were severely stressed .. I theorise that this stress was just too much for the homeopathics to have long lasting

 

[nanciswell]

This is the routine I did in the last couple of months using homeopathics which are called nosodes.. using the actual organ of the body rather than the traditional homeopathics.

This is the list of the glandulars in homeopathic form all being potency 4 ch and very gradully increasing potency { I am now at around 8ch == I make my own from the original so as to save money .. in my condition being a chronic condition and having been ill now for 35 years will need to be treated for some time until the system is pulled up enough to totally heal it http://oaks.nvg.org/home-remedies.html} .

. I bought them seperateley from Dolisos homeopathic company.. from my local health food store/ alternative pharmacy You can buy liquid and pill form. The pill has a bit of lactose , liquid has ? glycerine in it ? depends on the manufacturer.. and this is another reason I make my own from the original .

I started two months ago and am now taking less than the original few times a day/ night doses. I also find that sometimes I have needed to take a few doses in succesion when I am having an acute attack and the remedy does not work the first time around.. for instance when reacting to some food / chemical.. ie when my adrenals are more stressed..

These are the ones I took .. in the order that I took them.. this was my idea and my experiment..

H hypothalamus potency 4 ch ... helped with severe exhaustion, very bad constant sweating , severe sleep issues . major hair oiliness ..

H thymus ... more energy ..helped undertheweather/ fluey fatigue, originally made me wake up needing more sulfate but it seemed to be a temporary adjustment phase .. not sure ?

I then added in H parathyroid and since that addition I now need less sulfate { epsom salts } and am tolerating sensitivity foods better . So cannot tell which made the difference -- thymus or parathyroid ? I sometimes forget to take the parathyroid and yet continue to need less sulfate so I suspect the thymus.. or maybe both.. .

H pineal gland .. noticed a more restful night.

H thalamus... did not notice any difference

H ovary... just experimenting..

H pancreas .. helps with food reactions.

H brain that has several parts of the brain/spine in the combo that I felt are particular to my problems .. . helps with brain fog, problems with motor coordination
H cerbrinum, moelle dorsale , corps calleux,cortex surrenal, cerebellum, cortex cerebral

Again I stress that the above did not have the dramatic and permanent improvments when I took these before removing stress by going on a total exclusion diet.. I tried most of them several years ago and noticed only a very slight improvment , Whereas now with the restricted diet I am on avoiding salicylates, amines, gluten, dairy, sulfur foods etc it is alot stronger support for my system.

nanci

 

[maddietod]

Have you had any experience with adrenal nosodes? Any thoughts about why it might be smart to - or not to - start there? The only medication that ever helped me was cortef (but I didn't like the side effects or the requirement to test liver function every 6 months).

 

[nanciswell]

Hi Madie

Yes I did try adrenal organ homeoapathic.. It did show a slight improvement but not so deep and long last as some of the others I have used. The hypothalamus helped for some reason for me.. It was this organ that also affects adrenal function.. I stopped feeling so adrenally exhausted with debilitating sweats and panic attacks, sleeplessness etc..

ALot of my hormonal organs are out of balance. Hoping it is the environmental toxins like heavy metals that are causing it as I am pursuing frequet dose chelation.But for now the homeoapthics and the supps I am on are having some great affects to keep me going..

Have you tried any nosode therapy??

I have also added on Parathyroid taken during the day as well as at night, thyroid and pancreas.. for when my blood sugar goes down a couple hours after eating. I tried a homoepathic for hormones but it shows no difference . For brain fatigue I still rely on methylb12 and epsom salts. And I am taking mega doses of biotin for my excess levels of oxalates so little fatigue if I avoid food / chemical triggers ..

What I mostly need is something to help me find more variety to eat as I have so many sensitivities i do not have enough nourishment to sustain me until my older years.

This is a problem with enzymes but what is at the root of that?? Some genetics as my father suffers a similar fate.. and hope , I hope the metals..

nanci

 

[maddietod]

I have not tried nosodes, and I asked about adrenal nosode because I didn't see it for sale. If you are in the US, where do you buy your nosodes? I have on homeopath living an hour from me, but he isn't very good, so I do this on my own. I can muscle test to see which nosode(s) I need, but I have to have the product for effective testing; hopefully it's cheap enough for me to buy a few.

I'm sorry that you have so many sensitivities. I've got some big ones, but overall, not many. Do you rotate your foods?

Madeleine

 

[nanciswell]

thanks Madie for your concerns..
I am in canada.. I do not have any foods to make a rotation!// I was eating foods I was sensitive to for so many.. ie 35 years before I knew which ones i could actually tolerate. I am what is called a super responder. So I even have problems with brown rice , and have to only eat white sushi rice as even rice has the chemical called a salicyalate in it. THe salicylate is a naturally occuring chemical made by a plant as a natural pesticide.. But we do need enzymes in our digestion to break these down , like lactase for milk sensitivities. I have just eliminated high oxlates from my diet as they as well were causing severe irritable bowel and fatigue issues.

I buy the pellets from the company called DOlisos, They are cheap. And I make my own using this stock bottle. I will add in the website of how to do this later. It saves me alot of money. I as well have been to several homeoatphics . I feel that my problems may well be heavy metal related . IN which case homeopathy used in teh traditional sense will not cure me .. I find the nosodes are good as I can use them when needed.. I find my organs go through different stages of balance .. and surmise that this as well is because of the metals affecting the natural rythm of my bodies hormonal/ etc balance.

I will tell you the name of it when I get home tomorrow. THere were two parts .. the outer adn inner as I recall?