Heart beat feeling like it is pounding very hard...feeling and hearing each beat

[BeADocToGoTo1]

Hi @goxus

A couple more items pertaining to your heart. Have you looked into taking a mitochondria supplement cocktail including CoQ10 (amazing!), B1, B2 vitamins, magnesium, creatine, and L-Carnitine? Something that really helped me is the following:

● 400 mg of coenzyme CoQ10 per day.

● 100 mg of vitamin B1 per day.

● 5-10 grams of creatine spread over three times in the day.

● 3 grams of L-carnitine spread over three times in the day.

Especially CoQ10 was an incredible help. I had 4 months non-stop palpitations, every 3rd or 4th beat would drop, and moments where my average heart rate would go into the low twenties. I would feel this bonking feeling in my neck and chest, like a fish flopping around and could hear every beat. The cardiologist was talking ablation, statins and a pace maker. Within 5 days of the 4 supplements my heart palps were gone. In my case it was due nutrient deficiencies and in particular CoQ10. Sorry to state the obvious, but alcohol and smoking are completely out of the question if you are trying to resolve something like this. Even caffeine and especially sugary drinks and processed simple carbs should be seriously cut back if not already.

CoQ10 can be bought in ubiquinol (reduced form) or ubiquinone (oxidized form) versions. Your body can synthesize back and forth but it requires methylation. I stuck with the ubiquinol version. It can be pricy, but LifeExtension often has sales on.

And as was already mentioned above, don't forget to look into magnesium supplementation.

A great book to consider by a cardiologist who saw the light is:

The Sinatra Solution: Metabolic Cardiology by Dr. Stephen T. Sinatra

 

[Jwarrior77]

@sb4 @goxus

Yep. I get the pounding in my hands and also stomach as well. In fact the forceful stomach pulse was the first thing that I noticed when getting this illness. Then the heart palpitations came next etc. It's the same with me. Anxiety doesn't really have anything to do with this at all. Sure anxiety can amplify any symptom one has with this but it happens completely separately whether I am anxious or not.

 

[kisekishiawase]

i see. so theres a cause to it right? its not something that being there from the start/since born? or is it inheretent? because i read it could be genetic influence or something but theres usually multifactor and should be other triggers.

i also notice i wasnt like this before even my earlier symptoms was only heavy exercise intolerance.
but i was weak since i was a kid(allergy, stomach issues) and especially got worse during teenager(heart issues) so its hard to really pinpoint cause i wasnt paying attention.

for me its also 100% not from anxiety.
there was a time when i feel almost normal when theres no trigger. but if theres a slight trigger, heart is acting up but many times its hard to identified whats wrong so i cant stop it. when i know the trigger i avoid it to reduce it.

you mean you constantly have heart pounding really hard/punching jumping out? or is it just that you notice its beat?

@kisekishiawase Before all my symptoms started near 10yrs ago I didn't have this heart pounding sensation at all. Only if I did something like go on a big run the suddenly stop or get really scared or something but that is perfectly normal and my heart would settle within seconds.

You mean you wake and feel heart pounding? for me it is there 24/7 to some degree.

 

[Jjnz]

Interesting thread, I always assumed this was something to do with fluid around the heart that transferred the force of the heartbeat through to the surrounding tissues. It only affects me when I have pain in the chest, which affects me mainly after exercise. I also feel strong pulses just below the sternum, assuming Abdominal Aorta. It's usually transient 2~3 days and intermittent as the months pass. If I have the energy to go to the gym this is often enough to physically move my head (mirror) Been to hosp several times with this and post exerional pain in back of neck, right at the top, No one seems to look at this any further than an xray and gives me the all clear.

 

[sb4]

@goxus I only had arrithmia when I was really bad. I have had various tests on my heart all of which come back normal except for the POTS tests.

there was a time when i feel almost normal when theres no trigger. but if theres a slight trigger, heart is acting up but many times its hard to identified whats wrong so i cant stop it. when i know the trigger i avoid it to reduce it.

you mean you constantly have heart pounding really hard/punching jumping out? or is it just that you notice its beat?

Yeah I have very similar thing. If it is mild, I just notice the beat being a bit too hard. If it is extreme, my whole body is visibly pulsating from each beat, feels like a jack hammer in my chest, and neck, etc, is extremely uncomfortable, and usually accompanied with a bunch of other symptoms.

 

[MeSci]

Otherwise, if you’re able re access and finance at that time, go to cardiologist for rxs, e.g. ace inhibitors, calcium channel blockers or beta blockers, singularly as directed by the doctor. No doubt your health will improve within 6-9 months.

Be very careful about ACE inhibitors - they can reduce your sodium levels severely, as I found out and a relative has too - we both had to go to hospital. We both came off them.

 

[Katoo1]

Hi everyone, I just want to give my experience with this same exact issue.

First of all, I've noticed that for almost every single person with this issue it all started with a period of prolonged stress, and that's exactly how it was for me. During college I was consuming a lot of caffeine, getting barely sleep (~3-4 hours a night), not eating much, taking wayyy too many credits, and dealing with stress from my social circle. That's when the pounding started, I remember sitting in a hallway studying before an exam and I honestly thought that there was an earthquake occurring, my heart was pounding so extremely forcefully. Ever since then I've dealt with the pounding non-stop 24/7, sometimes it was so bad as many of you know that it will visibly shake my body and it's a constant issue.

Now sometimes about a year ago I got extremely sick with a strong fever and bad joint pain/inflammation, I started taking two grams of ibuprofen a day for about 4 days until the sickness subsided. Now, the ibuprofen helped with the fever and joint pain but I was extremely surprised that is DRASTICALLY helped to reduce the heart pounding to the point where I could barely feel it, I would have kept taking the ibuprofen for this issue but unfortunately it was giving me ear pain and tinnitus and within two days of discontinuing the ibuprofen the pounding started to resume.

Now, why would Ibuprofen help so much? Well it lowers norepinpehrine which is most likely the cause of the pounding for the vast majority of us, here's a video of a doctor explaining the issue -

. This doctor had the exact same issue and a lot of his clients report the same problem of the consistent 24/7 heart pounding, now he refers to the issue as "adrenal fatigue" but a more accurate description of the issue is either "HPA axis dysfunction" or "autonomic nervous system dysfunction". Study on ibuprofen lowering norepinephrine - http://www.asaabstracts.com/strands/asaabstracts/abstract.htm?year=2014&index=2&absnum=3975.

Not going to get into this too much and I'm sure a lot of you are aware of HPA axis dysfunction but, basically what happens is chronic stress elevates cortisol -> causes brain damage (especially hippocampus cell death) -> important body hormones such as Testosterone/estrogen/progesterone/thyroid all fall -> Body then uses norepinpehrine as one of it's main fuel sources. There's more to it, but basically prolonged stress causes a messed up hormonal situation in the body and then norepinephrine rises as a final resource for fuel. Norepinephrine is the main hormone that dictates the FORCE of the heart beat, so if it's elevated you're going to feel the heart pounding that we all experience.

Anyways, we all need to lower norepinephrine and do things to actually help this heal, the easiest thing to do is to get on testosterone replacement therapy as I guarantee that almost everyone with this issue has incredibly low testosterone (both men and women), and increasing testosterone can heal HPA axis dysfunction and it has properties that directly lowers norepinephrine. But of course this isn't possible for everyone.

The thing that we ALL need to do is lower inflammation to help the body and especially brain to heal, the best things to heal this and things that I've found to work (and a lot of you have found to work) are below -

1. Ibuprofen is by far the best thing I've found, if I could tolerate it without side effects I would take it non-stop, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4930904/ , here's a study showing how it helps to prevent PTSD symptoms from chronic stress and the HPA axis dysfunction that follows. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30586639/ and another showing it how it prevents depression symptoms from chronic stress.

"Chronic stress increases Corticosterone (Cortisol in humans) levels, which then decreases BDNF and induces apoptosis (programmed cell death) in hippocampal neurons. This loss of neurons in the hippocampus is thought to be significantly responsible for anxiety and depression seen after chronic stress exposure.
Ibuprofen is known to inhibit the pro-inflammatory gene iNOS (inducible Nitric Oxide Synthase), which is activated by Corticosterone/Cortisol - Nitric Oxide (NO) causes inflammation and oxidative stress in the brain, in the context of depression. This reduction in NO levels restores BDNF levels. BDNF then induces hippocampal neurogenesis, leading to reversal of the stress-induced depression and anxiety like behaviors.
In chronic use, however, Ibuprofen is toxic to the gut, kidneys, and heart. A better alternative would be Agmatine. Like Ibuprofen, Agmatine inhibits iNOS, but unlike Ibuprofen, Agmatine has no known organ toxicity with long-term use. Agmatine also demonstrates
significant antidepressant and anxiolytic effects in rodents."

2. Agmantine Sulfate - incredibly good at reducing the heart pounding at 1 gram a day and has studies supporting it's ability to prevent HPA axis dysfunction, it can be stimulating so take it early in the day (if you take it late at night it can cause sleep issues which will just make the situation worse). This has strong vasodilation properties so you may notice a slight increase in the pounding at first.

3. Ashwagandha - for me it needs to be a high dose around 2 grams a day of KSM-66 but this can directly raise thyroid hormone and testosterone which helps to antagonize Norepinephrine and help the body heal, also has a lot of studies to support it

4. High doses of Vitamin C - Around 1 gram a day

5. Taurine at least 6 grams a day spread out in 2-3 doses - Taurine directly inhibits norepeinpehrine, it lowers cortisol, decreases inflammation, also it NEEDS to be higher doses.

6. Minimum of 3 cups of spinach a day - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6262511/, not a supplement like the others but it has strong anti-stress properties, also a good source of magnesium and potassium which high stress hormones can deplete.

7. Mega dosing fish oil, I've seen some people mention in this thread that high doses helps to calm the pounding and it does this by directly lowering norepinephrine, Plasma NE concentrations were significantly decreased in the omega-3 group (from 1.49 +/- 0.39 nmol/L to 1.05 +/- 0.14 nmol/L) (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15925295/). Once again though, you NEED to mega dose this, like 10 grams+.

8. Phenibut - it's a calcium channel blocker and gaba b antagonist, it drastically reduces the heart pounding even more than a beta blocker for me, and it has more of a euphoric type of calmness compared to benzos, it's still a drug so be careful with this. Not only does it lower the heart pounding through calcium blocking, but it also directly lowers norepinephrine. There's some really bad stories of addiction and terrible withdrawls from phenibut but personally I haven't noticed any of that, nor have I even noticed much of a tolerance but everyone reacts differently. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1043661815301225 - study showing how it increases BDNF in damaged brain regions. Don't take over a gram of this, I've noticed poor memory if I take doses too high.

9. HIIT (high intensity interval training) - Exercise is amazing for this issue, you'll have to find what form works best for you since everyone is genetically different but for me high intensity is the best, exercise raises serotonin and dopamine which will help you to stay calm in the day. Exercise also lowers brain norepinephrine which can be really helpful.

10. QUIT CAFFEINE - you will NOT heal from this issue if you're consuming caffeine, also caffeine consumption PREVENTS the anti-anxiety and norepinephrine lowering effects of exercise, it also prevents serotonin from rising during exercise. There's studying showing caffeine directly exacerbates PTSD/HPA axis issues as well, if you consume caffeine and deal with a pounding heart, quit it immediately.

Anyways, if I consume ~1 gram of agmantine sulfate, ~2 grams of ashwagandha, ~1 gram Vitamin C, ~10 grams of Taurine, eat lots of spinach, mega dose fish oil, take 1 gram of phenibut before bed, exercise regularly, and stay the heck away from caffeine the heart pounding is soooo light that I can barely feel it.

This is my experience with the issue, it's actually been life ruining at times and caused me a great deal of stress, the fact that it shakes your body when it's really bad means that even sleeping is difficult. There's other causes of heart pounding but I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people are dealing with an HPA axis dysfunction, good luck everyone.

 

[sb4]

@Katoo1 Interesting post. I think however in my case the heart pounding is serving a function, to get the blood flowing where it needs to. If I vasodialate, when it is too hot for example, the heart pounds harder and faster in order to get the blood up to the brain. I have found mirtazapine, which acts to increases adrenaline, a little helpful no doubt due to it's vasoconstriction properties.

 

[Katoo1]

@sb4 As mentioned in my post regarding agmantine sulfate it can increase the heart pounding temporarily since it's a vasodilator, vasodilation will always cause the heart to beat harder since an increased diameter of blood vessels means that a larger force is required to get the same amount of blood circulating at it's normal rate.

A pounding heartbeat is a semi-common side effect of excessive vasodilation even in people without our "issue". But if you have our issue then any vasodilation is going to further increase the pounding to unbearable levels since we're already running on stress hormones.

I had/have the same issue where heat such as a hot shower makes the heart pounding extremely bad and for a while I was taking a cold shower every night just to reduce it enough to the point to where I could sleep. Cold showers release tons of adrenaline which as you know causes vasoconstriction, which would decrease the pounding enough for me to actually relax.

 

[sb4]

@Katoo1 You say that increasing vasodialation via agmantine will increase heart pounding temporarily, implying that long term it will decrease it, why is this?

I still use cold to help my symptoms. I used to do ice baths and whilst it helped my POTS, it would make my mouth unbarebly dry, indicating it was pushing the sympathetic system too hard.

 

[Katoo1]

@sb4 Basically there's 3 forms of nitric oxide in the body

eNOS = Endothelial NOS, this generates NO in blood vessels and is involved with regulating vascular function. When this increases it leads to the blood vessels opening, when people talk about vasodilators they're mostly talking about eNOS increasing.

nNOS = neuronal; this one pertains to the nerves in the CNS

iNOS = inducible, because can be induced by damaging agents. THIS is the one that we need to lower since - "Induction of the high-output iNOS usually occurs in an oxidative environment, and thus high levels of NO have the opportunity to react with superoxide leading to
peroxynitrite
formation and cell toxicity ". iNOS is basically poison to the brain.

iNOS is what increases during times of stress and leads to the brain damage and programmed cell death, especially in the hippocampus, this cell death then leads to the hormonal system of the body becoming dysfunctional (HPA axis dysfunction/autonomic nervous system dysfunction). Testosterone/estrogen/progesterone/thyroid/DHEA/etc will all tend to fall when this occurs, norepinephrine then rises as the bodies final resource for fuel which then leads to the heart pounding. For me and others, it will also give me a constant "wired but tired" feeling.

The issue is that when this occurs iNOS can stay stuck in an elevated position, even long after the stressors are dealt with/reconciled.

Agmantine directly lowers iNOS which then allows for the brain to heal, which then allows the hormonal systems to come back online causing norepinephrine to fall back to normal levels thus reducing the heart pounding sensation, it also raises eNOS and nNOS which will make the pounding worse temporarily through blood vessel dilation, it's why you want to take it early in the day and it can also be mentally stimulating so it can cause sleeping issues if taken too late at night.

Agmantine at 1 gram a day is absolutely amazing, it's not as good as ibuprofen but it's close. Ibuprofen also works on the same mechanism by decreasing iNOS

 

[sb4]

@Katoo1 Okay so the eNOS effects hit soon after taking agmantine but fade relatively quickly however the iNOS effects last long enough to make a positive difference.

I do have low Testosterone, and taking things like progesterone, DHEA, preg, can make me feel a little bettter. In my tilt table test my adrenaline was within normal range however it was on the high side if I remember correctly.

I have order some Agmantine and will give it a go soon enough. What is the mechanism via which it lowers iNOS?

 

[Katoo1]

@sb4 For Ibuprofen - Ibuprofen decreased iNOS protein levels, as determined by Western blot, with an IC50 of 0.89 mM. The data suggests that the reduction in iNOS activity by ibuprofen is due to inhibition of post-transcriptional processing of this enzyme

There's studies showing that Agmatine also blocks the enzyme that produces iNOS - "Agmatine inhibits mRNA expression of iNOS and prevents development of oxidative stress under sepsis-induced vascular dysfunction [30]. Furthermore, agmatine alleviates oxidative stress and inhibits the production of cytokines and inflammation under conditions of acute kidney injury in rats". It seems to down-regulate the enzyme that encodes for iNOS, during times of stress this enzyme is up-regulated.

In terms of adrenaline, it may or may not be high in cases of HPA axis dysfunction, the best indicators would be Noradrenaline (aka norepinephrine) values, and both testosterone and estrogen (these will always be low).

I also have confirmed low testosterone, it was around ~320 ng/dl which would be okay if I was an 80 year old man, unfortunately it wasn't low enough to get treatment, my estrogen was also slightly below the lowest value of the reference range (doctor didn't seem to care). I believe that both are quite a lot higher now though, fortunately.

As mentioned before, testosterone will directly lower norepinephrine (Noradrenaline) which will help to reduce the heart pounding,. Testosterone also DRASTICALLY lowers iNOS which can help the nervous system go back to a healthy homeostasis.

On top of the agmatine, it's important to include foods in your diet that will also reduce the heart pounding via reduction in iNOS.

Here's a paper with a list of foods that inhibit iNOS - https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/17/7/8118/pdf

most of these foods that contain iNOS lowering substances will actually make the heart pounding temporary worse as they all tends to increase eNOS, similar to agmatine. These foods also contain potassium which is important since if the body is running on stress hormones, it forces potassium out of the cells which can actually make the heart pounding worse as well, so keep potassium intake high.

Spinach as mentioned in the first post is extremely good for this issue as it contains Luetein - "Lutein decreased the LPS‐induced NO production by 50% compared to LPS alone. Real‐time PCR analysis showed a 1.9‐fold reduction in iNOS expression at the mRNA level. Western blotting revealed that lutein decreased LPS‐induced iNOS expression at the protein level by 72.5%"


For agmatine, you'll have to fine a dose that works for you, 1 gram may be too much, and it might also not be enough, I recommend trying a higher dose around 2 grams at first since that seems to help a lot of people out with other health issues, 2 grams is simply too stimulating for me though but everyone's body is different.

exercise lowers iNOS and other forms of inflammation (inflammatory markers are actually elevated after exercise, but reduce in the long run).

 

[sb4]

@Katoo1 Thanks for the detailed info. The agmantine I bought was around £5 on ebay so hopefuly its legit.

I did actually qualify for testosterone replacement therapy but didn't notice too much from it symptoms wise apart from increased libido. However I was only on it for like a month.

My diet is mostly beef mince and chicken breast at the moment.

Regarding potassium. I have developed a weird aversion to salt over the last couple of years. Perhaps this is to preserve potassium. K is not really low on blood tests but that doesn't tell you how much is inside the cell. My phosphorus was below range also. At one point when doing low carb I highly craved porrige, perhaps due to its K content?

Either way it will be interesting to see if agmantine makes a difference.

 

[Katoo1]

@sb4 I also have the aversion to salt, and eating a high potassium diet definitely helps me but I think it's mostly just avoiding the deficiency rather than helping the root cause.

If you search around the net, you'll find that the hard heartbeat is pretty common (with it getting worse after meals, heat, lack of sleep, etc, anything stressful or anything that diverts bloodflow or increases stress makes it worse).

For example it's common in the insomnia crowd (reddit thread was created just a little bit ago) -

https://www.reddit.com/r/insomnia/comments/itq985

. Worst thing about insomnia/lack of sleep is just how much worse it can make the heartbeat force, making it harder to actually get sleep to calm it down a bit.

I've seen it mentioned a lot in the long distance training crowd - https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/strong-heart-beat/32671/7

And well, for almost everyone I've seen/talked to with the issue it happened after a stressful period and other people have mentioned it https://ibb.co/sqN0hfm

after many heart tests (I'm sure most people with this issue have had heart tests), everything comes up clean, this is definitely a stress induced thing though.

While doctors will say "oh it's just anxiety", it definitely isn't the traditional form of anxiety that people think of, it's more of a sense of hyper awareness with anticipation type of feeling, it's more of a constant "wired and ready" type of feeling rather than "anxiety".

If you've ever interacted with stressed out and abused animals they actually will have the visible heart beat as well even when just resting so it's not just a human thing, it makes me wonder if people with this issue tend to lack social support.

It can definitely be reversed though, I can eat moderate sized meals and tolerate heat a lot better and I can tolerate day to day stress without it getting worse, I still do avoid extremely large meals however since they can still set it off (probably due to the extreme amount of blood going to the gut for digestion).

I hope everyone with this can improve, it's a hell that nobody should have to deal with.

 

[sb4]

@Katoo1 I agree that it isn't just anxiety like docs say, it is nothing to do with mental state, at least in me. Like you say with stressed animals, I have visible heart beat yet I think the stress is something internal and physical. Perhaps a stealthy pathogen?

Still waiting on the agmantine to arrive.

 

[Katoo1]

@sb4 Yea it could be a pathogen honestly, causing inflammation and putting the body into a stress mode, just like psychological stress will. Could be another reason as to why ibuprofen helps me so much.

I remember watching a video when this first started happening to me with someone with the same issue, their problem ended up being multiple food allergies (probably causing inflammation in brain/CNS), I've done prolonged fasts to see if it helps but didn't notice too much of a difference so I doubt that's it for me. The pounding is much worse when I eat wheat though so I might have a bit of a sensitivity to that.

 

[sb4]

@Katoo1 I've done prolonged fasts too to no avail. I only felt better in the sense that I didn't get post meal symptoms anymore because I wasn't eating.

I have taken 1g Agmatine Sulfate in the morning today and yesterday from a cheap supplier on ebay. Can't say I notice much, although my heart pounding symptoms have been the best they have been in a long while recently.

 

[gbells]

Does anyone else have this problem? This has been going on for about a year and is getting much worse

I'm a big fan of lavender organic essential oil for anxiety (1-2 drops in 6 oz water stirred and sipped).

You can lower your anxiety by massaging your hands and arms in bed. Giving yourself hugs also works. Releases oxytocin.

 

[MeSci]

The pounding is much worse when I eat wheat though so I might have a bit of a sensitivity to that.

You could try cutting out gluten. There are threads on non-coeliac gluten sensitivity, but I can't currently find the most-relevant one/s. It's getting easier to find gluten-free bread. I always use it.