Has vitamin K-2 (mk-4 or mk7) helped you ?

[Athene]

Athene I find the sublingual product I mentioned works quite well. Sure the dose is not superphysiological but it is physiological.

I give that one a trial.
I have found that higher dose doesn't seem to mean more effect, the one that has worked best for me so far was far lower dose than some of the ones that did nothing.
I think the only way to judge is to take it and see!

 

[Ema]

Does anyone know of any good articles on Warfarin and Vitamin K2 that advises more specifically on the interactions between the two in terms of practical dosing considerations?

I see that Warfarin may prevent K2 recycling and cause a functional deficiency but none of that really helps to figure out how to watch/monitor Warfarin dosage when starting K2...wouldn't it be nice if the prescribing doctor was up on this?

Thanks!

 

[xrunner]

It seems contraindicated
http://www.eisai.jp/medical/products/di/EPI/GLA_SC_EPI.pdf

 

[Athene]

Does anyone know of any good articles on Warfarin and Vitamin K2 that advises more specifically on the interactions between the two in terms of practical dosing considerations?

I see that Warfarin may prevent K2 recycling and cause a functional deficiency but none of that really helps to figure out how to watch/monitor Warfarin dosage when starting K2...wouldn't it be nice if the prescribing doctor was up on this?

Thanks!

Have you seen this Ema?
http://www.clotcare.com/vitaminkandwarfarin.aspx
It seems to suggest the important thing is taking a consistent amount of vit K, and monitoring with the PT-INR test.
It also suggests that you need to take note of the amount of natural vit K you are getting in your diet.

 

[Ema]

This is totally off topic but hilarious...

Do not eat the package!!

From http://www.eisai.jp/medical/products/di/EPI/GLA_SC_EPI.pdf:

Caution in handing over drug For drugs that are dispensed in a press-through package (PTP), instruct the patient to remove the drug from the package prior to use. [It has been reported that, if the PTP sheet is swallowed, the sharp corners of the
mucosa, causing perfora- tion and resulting in serious complications such as me- diastinitis.]

 

[Ema]

Hmmm. Thanks for those links xrunner and Athene.

It all seems very confusing. If you're on Warfarin, you're likely to have a functional K deficiency but then again not meant to take K to fix it. Or maybe just not meant to take varying amounts of K as suggested by the article from ClotCare.

I'll pass this along to my friend taking Warfarin but I'm afraid it will scare her off taking K when she might really benefit from it if the interaction was better understood.

 

[Asklipia]

Here is an interesting study :
Vitamins D and K as pleiotropic nutrients: clinical importance to the skeletal and cardiovascular systems and preliminary evidence for synergy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21155624

And yes, it has an effect on teeth. Furry teeth is the first sign that Vit K is not sufficient.

 

[Asklipia]

I posted this on the thread B2 - I love you
I think it may interest you too.

Hi Asklipia,​

I'm curious why you decided or chose to begin taking vitamin K2 in the first place. Was there some specific symptom or symptoms you were trying to address?​

​

​

Hi Dannybex,
You want to know it all!!!
This is how it happened :
By 2001 we had identified ingestion of MSG and glutamates as being at least a switch to our sickness episodes (now convinced it is more than that). It took 4 more years until we could avoid glutamates entirely (man-made glutamates that is). Very long story.
Once we were successful, we got huge improvements and then could not improve further.
Then we lived in Japan-Korea-Hong Kong and wondered : how do all these Japanese eat so much MSG and are still alright? The place was like a special MSG hell. The answer is : they are not. Next question : What do they do about it? Answer : they take all kinds of supplements on the sly. In Tokyo executives start their day with a bottle of an amino-acid drink, chockfull with B12 and taurine (a known MSG antagonist).
At a massage spa a lady told me about menatetrenone. Generics selling in spas in 2000 pill bottles. One wonders why if it is a prescription drug for old ladies with brittle bones!?!
I did some research as you can imagine. A lot of research, including using Google translate to find out about Japanese and Korean research. A lot of thought has come from that.

Since one of the virtues of menatetrenone is the mopping up of extra glutamates, I thought it was worth a try.

So we started on menatetrenone 15 mg a day. A small dose to fight let's say osteoporosis. Which I was starting to suffer from on top of the rest. My husband did not but he had what they had diagnosed as a deficiency in growth, meaning some of his bones never grew totally (happily it doesn't show from the outside). For osteoporosis in Japan, the dose is 45 mg in three doses a day for a lady weighing 45 kgs. So we reckoned 15 mg was peanuts for us.
No way could we take the 45 mg. Immediately I felt a general improvement on all kinds of symptoms, but at the same time we could feel our livers were having a hard time. Not too bad, but I thought we should wait before taking more. From time to time we tried taking a second dose, and it took 6 months before we could ramp up to 30 mg then 45 mg per day.

Strange things started to happen :
I grew up 2 cms then a third and last cm at 58 years of age. This has now stopped. Might mean that I too had a deficiency in growth. My jaw which had osteoporosis, especially around one of the articulations (if I yawned it would pop out), filled up and I did not need to have extra bone added to it as the dentist had planned. I stopped having teeth problems and periodontal problems. My face became wider, it seems the bones under my eyes filled up and became more round as in a youthful look.

My husband did not grow in height but in width. He suffered a little every night for months from growing pains behind his heart as his ribs grew to make a wider thoracic cage. At that place on his back he had a strange red spot which at the moment is still there but a different colour. A calcified place at the top of his lungs (which doctors had said was caused by TB) has now turned normal and he can use his lungs fully. We had to give away all of his suits and shirts. The cuffs did not reach the wrists by 10 cms. He has not put on any weight though.

All this is only for bones.
I am not ready to explain all of my theory. Not that I want to keep it a secret or that I want to make money from it. It is just that writing this down takes a lot of energy. Also diving into the murky waters of deceit to retrieve these pearls of discovery is very intense. The more I find out, the more I find out and it all falls into place. It is huge and terrible. I am so small.

Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:8

For the moment let's call it Fake Folate Poisoning.

I hope this answers your question.
Lots of good wishes,
Asklipia

 

[Ocean]

I think that sounds like good advice from Asklipia.
I found that when vit K works, you feel the effects in just a matter of days, and Asklipia has also suggested the same. So if you have been taking it for a few weeks and don't feel it doing anything, I would suspect maybe it really isn't doing anything.
My own experience with supplements has been that the difference between expensive adn cheap depends which vitamin. If they are easy to synthesise and relatively resilient, like Vitamin C, then it's possible to find good cheap ones. If they are prone to being poorly absorbed, easily degrade when exposed to temperature variations etc, or are simply unusual supplements that few people take, then you generally have to pay more to get something that works.
So I would try following Asklepia's suggestions and just give up on that brand if you don't feel anything soon.

I began taking it for bad bruising I developed after starting vit. D and I no longer have that symptom, so it is working. I don't notice it working on other symptoms, but maybe it does. It does work for what I took it for so I'm happy about that.

 

[Lou]

Hi Asklipia,

Am new to this thread and find your post to Dannybex simply amazing. Wouldn't some of your recovery aspects be termed by doctors as something approaching miraculous? Not doubting you here, just trying to lift my jaw off floor. I mean, you grew 2cms at age fifty-eight? Were you able to document this some way? Wouldn't that be unheard of?

Anyway, good for you, and thank you so much for your generous sharing throughout this thread and the one regarding b-2.

Best wishes,

Lou

 

[Chris]

Hi; Denise Minger (www.rawfoodsos.com ) recommends a book, Kate Rheaume-Bleue, "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox," which I find useful, and also Carlson's M-4, 5 mg, which she says helped her dental problems. I am now taking that, together with Natural Factors M-7; no dramatic results to report yet. Best, Chris

 

[Asklipia]

Hi Asklipia,
Am new to this thread and find your post to Dannybex simply amazing. Wouldn't some of your recovery aspects be termed by doctors as something approaching miraculous? Not doubting you here, just trying to lift my jaw off floor. I mean, you grew 2cms at age fifty-eight? Were you able to document this some way?

Hi Lou, sorry I took so much time to answer, I was away.
There are no miracles most probably, just things that work in a way we don't understand yet!!!!!
My growth was documented. When I got a passport at age 19 the police measured me with a big wooden gauge (I don't know how this is called in english) and the result was 1m 69. I was measured in the same way every time I had to get new identification, the last time when I was 32 with the same results. After that they did not measure me anymore and just copied the 1m 69 on my new passports. When I was 58 I went for blood tests in a hospital where they wouldn't let me have the tests if they were not prescribed by a doctor. The nurse "prepared" me for the doctor by taking down my weight, blood pressure and height too with the same kind of wooden gauge. She found 1 m 70. I thought she was wrong and she did it again. At that time I had already started taking MK-4.
Six months later I went to another hospital for blood tests in another country and I was similarly measured : result = 1 m 71.
So I am sure I grew 2 cms and it is documented. Well, I have not changed my passport and I am a bit weary of disclosing my growth to the authorities because nobody will believe me and this will cast a doubt on my identity with potential problems.
I do not know if I have grown more since then. I did not feel the change when I grew 2 cms and this did not make a difference in my clothes etc. Maybe I have. I am not ready to rush to a hospital that provides this service to find out!

This cannot be a result of better posture because I have been a strong swimmer (1 km a day until I was 35) and my back was perfectly straight, maybe be less so nowadays, which would have contrary results on my height.

Anyway, good for you, and thank you so much for your generous sharing throughout this thread and the one regarding b-2.

Thank you very much Lou for your encouragements. I am treading this path alone, which is why I post in detail. If something bad happens to me at least some people will have been warned. If I have found an answer my deepest wish is to alleviate some of this terrible misery.

Be well! I wish you all the best!
Asklipia
FFP

 

[Asklipia]

Hi; Denise Minger (www.rawfoodsos.com ) recommends a book, Kate Rheaume-Bleue, "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox," which I find useful, and also Carlson's M-4, 5 mg, which she says helped her dental problems. I am now taking that, together with Natural Factors M-7; no dramatic results to report yet. Best, Chris

Yes this is an excellent book, and most of what she writes I agree with, with one caveat : she expertly and discreetly encourages MK-7 over MK-4, which could mean this is a promotional book for the MK-7 industry. Since she is very well informed it couldn't be a result of ignorance.

However, the book is very informative and easy to read, making very good points in a way that will stick in your memory for a long time. Better than other books on the subject.

Be well! I wish you all the best!
Asklipia
FFP

 

[Lou]

Thanks, Asklipia, for the detailed answer. That is such an interesting story. And yes, something not well understood yet, but not completely isolated either as your husband on similar protocol experienced something of a growth experience (broadening of upper body) himself.

As to your 'Fake Folate Poisoning' theory, has this to do with all the added folic acid to many of our foods? I'm sure you are aware many others, including Fredd on this forum site, have noted and complained of the same adverse health conditions it causes in some people, probably many of us with ME/cfs. Just wondering, and actually hopeful you have much to add with regard to 'fixing the problem'.

All the best,

Lou

 

[Asklipia]

As to your 'Fake Folate Poisoning' theory, has this to do with all the added folic acid to many of our foods? I'm sure you are aware many others, including Fredd on this forum site, have noted and complained of the same adverse health conditions it causes in some people, probably many of us with ME/cfs. Just wondering, and actually hopeful you have much to add with regard to 'fixing the problem'.

Hi Lou,
Yes I am aware of what Freddd has noticed (folic and folinic acid issues). I think it ties well with my theory.
For the moment I have little time to spare but I have started answering your question on the B2 - I love you thread, http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b2-i-love-you.15209/page-27#post-287113
I hope you are well.
Lots of good wishes!
Asklipia
FFP

 

[starstern]

As surfing the web am finding people get better results from vitamin k2 in the mk4 form then the mk7 form or even mk9? Now the question arises which mk4 are they using or in other words the brand they use is which way made? could be naturally derived and then would not be a vegan product or could be synthetically chemically made, which make me wonder how that could improve one health even in the long run and without side effect, in other words it would act as similar to how a drug acts; or could it be done lab made in a more natural way by probiotic and yeast???Does the Japan one done that way;?

 

[Asklipia]

All MK-4 sold is chemically made, from the tobacco plant. Most of it is made in China. To get Japanese you must buy a Japanese brand.

 

[aprilk1869]

I came across this and thought it was interesting, I have no idea how easy it is to get tested for osteocalcin but I'll try to find out.

All diabetics are very deficient in Vitamin K2. Most people who eat a SAD also are quite Vitamin K2 deficient too. Because osteocalcin helps modulate insulin release, vitamin K2 can also be used to treat T2D as well. In this country it is not used often for any reason. Most physicians and health providers do not know what it is much less what it does. If you go into most pharmacies or supplement stores you will be hard pressed to find Vitamin K2. I use Vitamin K2 a lot in my practice and this is why its in my top ten paleo supplement list. Most vascular surgeons don’t even know what Vitamin K2 is. Sadly, neither do most healthcare practitioners who take care of the patients with the highest risk of being K2 depleted. The next time you go visit your doc ask them about K2 to see if I am right or wrong about this. I use osteocalcin to quantify how much a patient’s diet is depleted in Vitamin K2. Most of our endogenous Vitamin K is made from our gut bacteria when we are healthy. Humans also have a very slick way of recycling Vitamin K too in our guts. So if one has a leaky gut or gut dysbiosis you might not be able to recapture your Vitamin K2 and need a bigger dietary source constantly. I believe this is the major reason we have a pandemic in Vitamin K2 losses. I also think it is why cardiovascular disease is so prevalent these days on a SAD. I think a SAD selects for a gut microflora that ensures Vitamin K2 depletion.

http://jackkruse.com/osteoporosis-part-one/

 

[Ema]

Ema
Hemaxshop. They are based in Thailand hence bad English but they are very reliable I found.

Hi Asklipia -
Have you had any trouble with Hemaxshop? I ordered from them once with no issues but this last order has not processed and they are not responding to emails. I'm just curious if they have gone out of business?

Do you have any other ideas of where to source the Eisai Glakay in the meanwhile?

Thank you!
Ema

 

[Asklipia]

Hi Ema,
I have the same problem. They did not respond to my last email. Have you tried contacting them with an email that does not go through their website, that is, directly to the person who sent you last time?
I have not done anything because last time I contacted them was to buy some of the Japanese B2/ B1 which is a special type of B1 found only in Japan. Since the Japanese invented MSG in its actual form, I thought that there might be some good in that special B1 and wanted to try. The fact that it was associated with B2 kind of triggered it. In August and no reply. I did not pursue it because I was very busy getting better so fast and loads of memories coming back so I spend most of my time resolving issues which should have been taken care of much earlier.

I had bought quite a lot of Glakay before to last us for three years in case of such an event and had frozen it. This is how it is stocked at the factory. When I unfreeze them and put them in the normal fridge they are perfectly alright.
The reason I did this is when I was sure that my theories were indeed sound, I thought we might come to a point where real menatetrenone would be hard to find. At one point I thought about investing into a production plant but the wars might turn ugly there and why change what is becoming a better life every day into a bunch of problems. And I don't want to become extra rich, I am happy as I am.
So I went for stocking instead. I bought a lot just after the Fukushima incident because I thought the production in Japan might be affected and that at that time what I was buying had been stocked in Thailand so was unlikely to be contaminated. Indeed it was OK. I tested it with a Geiger meter. I thought that three years was enough to allow Eisai to organize another production plant far from any contaminated areas.

There is a way to obtain Glakay : it is by buying it in one of the 5 countries where it is distributed. At the moment : (careful these might change) and they are Japan, Thailand, South Korea, Myanmar and Vietnam. Someone tried buying some in Japan itself. They managed but only on prescription and for a small amount. At the moment it can be bought in Bangkok from several chemists without a prescription (they may want one but if you want to buy a lot they are so happy they do not need the prescription and you can even get a discount).
If you have a friend in one of the above countries you can have them buy it for you and mail it. It is not as though you were buying heroin. No problem with sending it by mail.
Or if you know someone going to Thailand for their holidays. Chemists in Bangkok generally want 7-10 days to obtain it so make sure that the tourist you send will spend enough time there.
Please inform me if you solve the problem because I have been helping others from my stock and it will have to be replenished at some time!

Lots of good wishes!
Be well!
Asklipia
FFP