has anyone tried Dr Nemechek Vagus Nerve?

[ItoldthemIwasill]

There is an application of t-vns called called e-ravans where the stim is applied on the outbreath only. I believe I have read of this intervention being used in a study with war veterans with ptsd.

Thats interesting anne_likes_red, I need to learn more about e-RAVANS. There's annoying up and down buttons to increase the frequency on the Beurer, so that wouldnt work. I would have to use my original device.

Very interested to hear any updates from you about your progress with this.
- Do you feel this is giving you improving your overall vagus function as the weeks go by?
- Or is it more in the few hours after you have done a session?
- And do you 'do sessions' as such?
Cheers!

 

[ItoldthemIwasill]

I used it for a while, and my symptoms tend to go very much in cycles up and down, so it was hard to evaluate the effect. After reading about the vagus nerve infection hypothesis I decided to pause the testing until I've ruled out any infectious origin of my symptoms, as I'm unsure about the safety to stimulate a theoretically infected vagus nerve.

Where are you up to Cipher? There are quite a few hyphotheses about whatever is suppressing the vagus nerve. Is there any certainty about being able to identify vagus nerve infections? as they are very local and specific.
I did something stupid and got my connectors mixed up and thought the effect had worn off... But I had just got them the wrong way round and had been shamming!!! It is night and day now I have got them the right way round again. It is allowing me to be soo much more effective.
Hope you manage to find a way forward.

 

[ItoldthemIwasill]

Also, if you ran into situation when, for example, 2mA is lower then perceptual threshold and 3mA is uncomfortable, tweak μs to increase or decrease perceptual threshold, as shown is the tutorial-study.
View attachment 36519

How is it going Hipsman?
- How much are you using the device?
- How long are you using it for?
- How would you describe the effects & benefits?

 

[Hipsman]

How is it going Hipsman?

I used this for about 2 weeks, so far I found 2 frequencies that are helpful:

1) 2hz is good for sleep, it shifts my brain into "sleep mode", I use 2hz while laying in bed when going to sleep. This fixed the annoying problem when you lay in bed, but can't stop thinking, relax and sleep. I had this problem almost every night.

I tried 1hz and 3hz, but didn't notice any benefits for sleep. Other settings: continuous stimulation, 300μs, 20min session.

2) 63hz has some benefit (60-68hz works too, but 63hz felt the best), just overall feel a bit better/refreshed. Other settings: 24sec ON and 27sec OFF (EMS mode, 1sec ramp up time), 300μs, 20min session.

I found that tragus earclips when used for more than 30min at a time give mild pain sensations on tragus for 6-12 hours after, so I use 20min sessions 4 times a day, 3 sessions with 63hz and 1 session with 2hz. Also, salt water evaporates over time and after 20min conductivity with skin is worse.

I also tried; 150hz, 120hz, 100hz, 80hz, 70hz, 50hz, 40hz, 30hz, 20hz, 10hz, but didn't notice benefits (all with the similar setting as in 2) ). Will probably explore more setting combination in the future, but for now I'll just stick with these 2 frequencies.

@ItoldthemIwasill what settings do you find to be helpful?

 

[anne_likes_red]

There is an application of t-vns called called e-ravans where the stim is applied on the outbreath only. I believe I have read of this intervention being used in a study with war veterans with ptsd.

Thats interesting anne_likes_red, I need to learn more about e-RAVANS. There's annoying up and down buttons to increase the frequency on the Beurer, so that wouldnt work. I would have to use my original device.

Very interested to hear any updates from you about your progress with this.
- Do you feel this is giving you improving your overall vagus function as the weeks go by?
- Or is it more in the few hours after you have done a session?
- And do you 'do sessions' as such?
Cheers!

Hi, I should mention before I even started with t-vns I began with manual stimulation on the vagal dermatome (both ears, inner tragus) on the outbreath. I did this for myself (out of curiosity) and my younger son - after he had a very interesting response to short term use of an ear plug in his left ear.

Yes it's improving vagal function in that it's enabled me to do the type of breathing exercises that promote relaxation. Previously I'd attempt try to follow them and experience panic on the outbreath. I believe it's likely I had some parasympathetic response on every single outbreath.

I really can't tell if further improvement comes from continuing to apply tvns, or from breathing better!
I don't notice an immediate positive response to the electrical stimulation. I have my TENS timer set to ten minutes and I do between 1 and 3 sessions most days. Coordinating it to my breathing requires the type of focus that doesn't promote relaxation and I can only tolerate ten minutes of that. I expect the set-ups they use for e-ravans are sophisticated and would allow the user to relax.

Hope that answers your questions OK.

 

[Hipsman]

Quick update on using TVNS: now it's less effective for me, but still enough benefit to justify using it.

1) 2hz is good for sleep, it shifts my brain into "sleep mode", I use 2hz while laying in bed when going to sleep. This fixed the annoying problem when you lay in bed, but can't stop thinking, relax and sleep. I had this problem almost every night.

I tried 1hz and 3hz, but didn't notice any benefits for sleep. Other settings: continuous stimulation, 300μs, 20min session.

2) 63hz has some benefit (60-68hz works too, but 63hz felt the best), just overall feel a bit better/refreshed. Other settings: 24sec ON and 27sec OFF (EMS mode, 1sec ramp up time), 300μs, 20min session.

I modified settings a bit:
1) 2hz for better sleep, but it's less effective now. I use it almost everyday, Other settings: 30sec ON and 30sec OFF (EMS mode, 1sec ramp up time), 300μs, 32min session

2) 63hz - use it less as I don't notice immediate effects from before, using around 4 times a week, Other settings: 30sec ON and 30sec OFF (EMS mode, 1sec ramp up time), 300μs, 32min session.

Also found that 300μs is more effective then 260μs. I suspect that >300μs may be even more effective, but my TENS unit doesn't support >300μs in settings.

 

[Hip]

In terms of the electrical parameters of vagus nerve stimulation, this paper finds something interesting:

In the vagus nerve, you have A‐fibers, B‐fibers and C‐fibers.

The study found that in vagus nerve stimulation, electrical pulse durations of less than 0.5 milliseconds (500 microseconds) only activate the A‐fibers.

But with pulse durations of 0.5 milliseconds or more, both vagus A‐fibers and B‐fibers are activated.

A‐fibers transmit afferent (incoming) sensory information from the organs, as well as efferent (outgoing) motor signals.

B‐fibers transmit most of the efferent parasympathetic ("rest and digest") signals.

In ME/CFS, the sympathetic nervous system is thought to be overactive, so we may benefit from stimulating the opposite side of the seesaw, the parasympathetic nervous system. Thus stimulating B‐fibers may be important.



Although the voltage used also has a bearing on which fibers are activated, as the study found:

At a voltage of 3 V and a stimulation frequency of 5 Hz, the full heart rate response required a pulse duration of 0.5 msec, suggesting that a pulse duration of 0.5 msec is required to recruit B‐fibers.

However, at shorter pulse durations the threshold for B‐fibers may also be reached by increasing the stimulation frequency or voltage, because a maximum heart rate response was achieved with a pulse duration of 0.2 msec at 5 Hz and 6 V

Note however that this study was on neck vagus nerve stimulation in rats, rather than auricular (ear) stimulation in humans. So whether this pulse duration effect on B‐fibers will also apply to auricular vagus nerve stimulation, it is not clear.



The study also says something interesting about the polarity of the electrodes (the placement of the negative and positive electrodes):

Placing the anode proximally from the cathode may block proximal propagation of action potentials and preferentially lead to efferent stimulation. On the other hand, placing the anode distally from the cathode may block distal propagation of action potentials and, thus, preferentially lead to afferent stimulation.

I suspect what is meant by "placing the anode proximally from the cathode" is that along the length of the vagus nerve, you place the anode (positive electrode) closer to the origin of the nerve (in the brain), and place the cathode (negative electrode) closer to the final end of the nerve.

 

[tango]

Nemechek is now saying that you only need 5 minutes a day using his VNS device and is recommending it more widely (not just for over 35 yo). My only reservations about his methods (other than the exorbitant price for the clips and access to the program on iPhone) is that he says you can do this on either ear. It's dangerous to use VNS on the right ear so that makes me question his other information. Having said that there is lots of evidence for VNS and I am keen to pursue this.

I am going to give it a go along with his olive oil and fish oil. I am already taking the olive oil but react badly to DHA fish oil so that is a long term plan.

Question on the ear clips: I have been using single sided ear clips on inside of the tragus. What is the benefit of double sided clips?

As an aside Nemechek is also using it in his own studies which he believes demonstrates that tVNS reduces the duration and severity of COVID-19

https://www.nemechekconsultativemed...stimulation-to-control-covid-19-inflammation/