has anyone tried Dr Nemechek Vagus Nerve?

[junkcrap50]

OK retraced steps to the electronics store and found it's a Panasonic RP-HS35ME Sports Clip In-ear Headphones.

Removed the wires etc. from that so we were left with two over the ear "frames".

Prised one ear electrode (Tenspros,black 2mm plug type, they come in pairs) apart carefully to preserve the integrity of the part that connects the hinge and holds the spring in place.

Attached the electrode with a paperclip. Image 1 shows how the paperclip is used to attach the electrode to the ear frame. NB the 2 little black plastic "hoops" the paperclip wire is positioned through are part of the ear electrode and not the ear frame.
The red TENS lead is plugged into it the end of the electrode.
Image 2 shows the red electrode wires pushed into the groove round the top of the ear frame - where the original headphone wires were originally.​

Wow! Superb! Thank you so very much! And excellent pictures. That helps alot! And this exact headphone is on ebay for <$10. But I'm sure any type with this ear frame will work.

Yesterday I thought of using similar earphones with frames and using hotglue to glue the electrode in. I hadn't thought of hotglue before.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Wow! Superb! Thank you so very much! And excellent pictures. That helps alot! And this exact headphone is on ebay for <$10. But I'm sure any type with this ear frame will work.

Yesterday I thought of using similar earphones with frames and using hotglue to glue the electrode in. I hadn't thought of hotglue before.

Glue is fine I think! And rubber bands...or whatever! We are working on some simpler solutions today and I'll post more pics in due course. One discovery is, in my little family of 4 we have two quite different ear shapes..so we're finding one person's solution might not fit everyone. Glad the pics were helpful.
Anne.

 

[sb4]

Excelent, thanks for the pics. I am starting to piece together the equation now. Though I have some final questions.

So the thigh bone is connected to the knee bone? and the knee bone is connected to the shin bone?

Sorry, my actual question is: you have a pair of electrode ear clippers.You
carefully dismantle one of the clippers, attach this dismantled clipper to the concha cymbae, and then attach the other normal clipper to the ear lobe. The electricity will then run between the concha and lobe?

I guess what I am asking is, does the ear clipper have electrodes at each end of the clipper, so that if you placed only one clipper on an earlobe the electricity would run through the top of the ear lobe, through to the bottom of the ear lobe.

OR

Does each clipper have only one electrode such that you need to have a full pair clipped to your body so that current can run through it.

Sorry about all these basic questions. I have ordered the TENS 7000 so I want to give this a fair trial.

 

[anne_likes_red]

@sb4 Each ear clip has just one electrode and yes you use both clips. It seems the most common way to apply auricular t-vns is to have one electrode touching a point innervated by the auricular branch of the vagus nerve and the other closing the circuit on a part of the ear not innervated by the vagus. I've also seen someone use a TENS electrode pad on their left shoulder to close the circuit (and she's getting good results) so various set ups may be effective.

The leads that come with your TENS7000 have two pins at the end of the wires....you just plug them into the ear clips/electrodes.

The clips Dr Nemechek supplies to his patients have both electrodes in the one clip. These are for use on the tragus (the inner tragus is vagus innervated and the outer is not ) or the concha. On the Health Rising website there are instructions for making a clip a bit like this.
https://www.healthrising.org/forums...to-use-in-vagus-nerve-stimulation-of-ear.178/ My understanding is using the commercially available clips you can not make anything particularly comfortable. It might be OK for 10 or 20 minutes use though?

Dr Nemechek has his adult patients use t-vns a minimum of 2 hours and up to 4 (or more). I heard from one of his patients he's having new, improved ear clips made with more comfort in mind.

 

[anne_likes_red]

We have refined the ear clip set up a bit further so I'm popping a pic up. The next refinement will be to position the second (earthing) electrode on the ear frame so it's resting against the back of the ear lobe, and hidden.

Also have something potentially relatively easy to put together in the works. Just waiting on extra electrodes to arrive and we'll try and make a tutorial of sorts.

Anne.

 

[junkcrap50]

We have refined the ear clip set up a bit further so I'm popping a pic up. The next refinement will be to position the second (earthing) electrode on the ear frame so it's resting against the back of the ear lobe, and hidden.

Also have something potentially relatively easy to put together in the works. Just waiting on extra electrodes to arrive and we'll try and make a tutorial of sorts.

Anne.

This makes less sense than your previous photo. How does this new electrode fit and stay put in the ear? Just friction fit / jammed in there? Seems like it'd easily fall out.

Seems like you got rid of the electrode lead or cut the red tip off and soldered or put the raw wire into the "ear bud."

 

[anne_likes_red]

It doesn't fall out, at the same time I hardly notice it's there.
It took a bit of heating and moulding the black coating (heat shrink) to give the wire to the electrode enough spring and tension to hold it exactly in place. It pushes upwards and inwards slightly and the cartilage above keeps it positioned. Yes we got rid of the red part...decided to have something more discreet.

 

[junkcrap50]

It doesn't fall out, at the same time I hardly notice it's there.
It took a bit of heating and moulding the black coating (heat shrink) to give the wire to the electrode enough spring and tension to hold it exactly in place. It pushes upwards and inwards slightly and the cartilage above keeps it positioned. Yes we got rid of the red part...decided to have something more discreet.

How long do you need to wear the tVNS? Does the benefits not appear if you don't wear for a certain length of time? Or do they work but wear off quickly? What do the studies say on how long you need to do tVNS?

Seems like you need to wear them all day if you're trying to make them very discrete.

 

[anne_likes_red]

I'm just loosely following Dr Nemechek's recommendations for his adult patients to use it several hours a day. (Studies for the most part use it for short periods only to evaluate which parts of the brain are stimulated, the effect on HRV etc.)
I built up to that length of time and I felt benefits with much less too.
I can't answer your other questions because I have been using it consistently since the start of August and haven't missed a day. My impression is it may be strengthening something and the effect lasts....That's just an impression though so take that fwiw!
Would be great if others reported on how they feel using it (consistently).
Discreet is definitely optional!

 

[junkcrap50]

I'm just loosely following Dr Nemechek's recommendations for his adult patients to use it several hours a day. (Studies for the most part use it for short periods only to evaluate which parts of the brain are stimulated, the effect on HRV etc.)
I built up to that length of time and I felt benefits with much less too.
I can't answer your other questions because I have been using it consistently since the start of August and haven't missed a day. My impression is it may be strengthening something and the effect lasts....That's just an impression though so take that fwiw!
Would be great if others reported on how they feel using it (consistently).
Discreet is definitely optional!

I'll look more into Dr. Nemechek and his protoco. But how does he recommend patients apply the vagal nerve stimulation? How does he use the TENS unit and place the electrodes to the right spots on the ear?

 

[anne_likes_red]

Dr Nemechek supplies his patients with his own clips designed for use on either the tragus or the concha. Both electrodes are on the one clip - one on each side.
There's a tutorial at Cort's site (Health Rising) explaining how to do this using a pair of ear clip electrodes.

Sorry for poor quality of the photos - this is one of his clips used both ways.

 

[sb4]

Interesting, thanks @anne_likes_red . Could you give me a quick summary of why you choose the upper part of the concha, and why Nemechek seems to go for the tragus and mid(?) concha?

I should be recieving my TENS unit within a week or so, so will experiment with it then.

 

[anne_likes_red]

The tragus and concha are both proven very effective for vagus stimulation. Both points are relatively easy to reach with a the kind of clips easily available, and the only points accessible with the type of clip Dr N has devised (double sided). I'm presuming convenience is why those points are most recommended by most doctors using t-vns.
Most studies I've read use the Cerbomed earpiece and this applies stimulation to the concha cymbae. It seems this may have slightly stronger influence on certain regions of the brain than the tragus for example. (See a study I posted earlier in this thread).
However - there's no good reason I've chosen to use that point, other than I just don't find the commercially available clips comfortable enough to use for an extended period. Having the electrode fit in that smaller space works well for the kind of earpiece we've made.

 

[sb4]

@anne_likes_red how old are you, if you don't mind? I ask because I have watched a lot of Dr Nemchek videos and he says in the vast majority of cases he doesn't use tVNS on those below 35 years old. Slightly disappointing to hear although perhaps I could be in the small percentage of under 35s that need it, since he is dealing with a lot of conditions, hopefully POTS is one of them.

 

[sb4]

@anne_likes_red A few more questions, do you keep the power generally at 1(mA?) or do you adjust until you feel something? Do you apply salt water to the electrodes? Is it important that the live wire is over the desired spot and not the ground wire? Thanks.

I have found an old TENS unit and have altered the ear electrodes to be more like your newest edition however I find it keeps falling out and am never sure if it is in place or not. My engineering skills are not up to snuff.

I basically cut off the red rubber bit, snapped off the metal holder thing that attatchs the wire to the main metal rod; then cut some of the rubber to reveal the wire and taped it to the main rod. I then lodge it in my ear and hope it doesn't fall out.

I think I will play it safe with the next ear electrodes I have ordered and make them like Nemechek has them, 1 piece with an electrode either side then apply it to the tragus.

 

[RYO]

Started tvns about a week ago. Worked up to 30 min three times daily.

@anne_likes_red
Can you describe how the TENS 7000 is modified?

Do you need to modify TENS 7000?

 

[anne_likes_red]

@sb4 Dr N. prescribes t-vns to children too. Ten minutes twice per day is one "dose" I have heard mentioned.
Depending on symptoms and/or results of the autonomic function testing he does he does actually give the t-vns to patients younger than 35. I think the gist of his general recommendation is if you're over that age (I am) you will more than likely need t-vns to help support a neural platform for repair.

Re the power setting. My skin seems relatively well hydrated and I apply the electrodes at first without any moisture. Then I turn the power up until I feel a prickling sensation. FWIW Dr Nemechek states this should happen between power setting 2 and 3 for the TENS unit I have.
If I can't feel anything by 3 I wipe the ear with electrolyte solution (salt water is fine) then attach the electrodes again. When prickling is felt I turn the power down to where the sensation is barely discernible. Dr Nemechek suggests anything under 2 is OK on my TENS. I find 1 + a bit suits me well.
If I'm active while I'm using the t-vns I'll stop and check I'm still connected by turning up the power then dialling back again.

Re which wire goes where. Makes sense to me to have the stim applied to the concha or inner tragus (vagus innervated sites) and the circuit closed on a passive spot but have not verified this is the only way to apply tvns.


@RYO No modification to the TENS unit, only to the ear clips, for comfort.

 

[sb4]

Thank you @anne_likes_red, very useful info!

Incidentally my TENS7000 unit arrived about an hour ago. Hopefully I can get similar results as you.

 

[sb4]

Are you sticking to left ear only? Heard something about right ear vagus innervating the heart so being potentially dangerous, same with neck.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Are you sticking to left ear only? Heard something about right ear vagus innervating the heart so being potentially dangerous, same with neck.

Yes only EVER the left ear this is very important!! Think that has been covered in other threads here but it bears mentioning again. Thx for the reminder.