has anyone tried Dr Nemechek Vagus Nerve?

[humanrising]

I am very curious about vagus nerve stim. I am wondering if anyone has seen Dr Nemechek for treatment protocol using this? watched a utube video he did and was very intrigued.
I know there are some threads here about doing a "self hack" using a TENS but have to admit that I am too chicken to try that. I think the frequency is very important and since I can't seem to use a remote for the TV I think medical hacking with devices is beyond me

 

[junkcrap50]

I've tried using a TENS unit clipped to the ear to try and stimulate the vagus nerve. I never really tried it long enough to see if it works - probably 10 mins at a time for a week. And I never knew what frequency or waveform or what TENS settings to use. I think all the TENS settings are too confusing.

I don't see what's so being chicken about it. It doesn't hurt at all It just tingles like a very fast vibration, a mild buzz. You can control the intensity to what's tolerable.

I'm pretty sure there are some threads on here about TENS to stimulate the vagus nerve by clipping it to your ear. There was a paper that did the exact same thing showing vagal nerve activation. And they show where to your ear to clip it.

 

[humanrising]

"don't see what's so being chicken about it. It doesn't hurt at all It just tingles like a very fast vibration, a mild buzz. You can control the intensity to what's tolerable. "

its not the pain I am worried about. you have to have the right frequency and hertz. I did some research from reading the what and how and few tens units will work. just think it would be grand to have a doctor who has experience with treating patients with this modality treat me instead of me winging it when I don't have the focus to figure things out on my own.

 

[anne_likes_red]

I haven't seen Dr Nemechek but I did lots of research into taVNS, including into his protocol for autonomic dysfunction, and I started using a TENS with electrodes applied to the concha cymbae and earlobe at the beginning of August. I started with 5 mins, then 10 and I'm using it several hours a day at this point. Noticing improvements especially in POTS type symptoms, but also it's clearly having an anti-inflammatory effect - likely through the anti-inflammatory cholinergic pathway.

 

[anne_likes_red]

"don't see what's so being chicken about it. It doesn't hurt at all It just tingles like a very fast vibration, a mild buzz. You can control the intensity to what's tolerable. "

its not the pain I am worried about. you have to have the right frequency and hertz. I did some research from reading the what and how and few tens units will work. just think it would be grand to have a doctor who has experience with treating patients with this modality treat me instead of me winging it when I don't have the focus to figure things out on my own.

Dr Nemechek sees lots of adult patients at his clinic in Buckeye Arizona.
I'm not sure too many other doctors are offering taVNS in the US yet. There was some discussion about this therapy at the Autism One conference this year though, so awareness and the number of practitioners using it may be growing???

 

[anne_likes_red]

Had a few spare mins so I uploaded a couple of photos.
First photo is showing how we're applying the stimulation to the ear. We have modified the ear clips (ie black ear electrodes from Tenspros dot com, with a 2 mm plug) to find a solution that's comfortable and in line with where the electrodes are placed in various studies I've read. Second pic is the inexpensive TENS units we're using. They're both made in Taiwan and available on Amazon (under $30 US) and various other places including Tenspros. The TENS 7000 (which I prefer) can be set from 2 hz up and the Balego from 1 hz up.
I'm mostly using 5 hz, 250 pluse width and the power setting of 1, on "Normal" mode. I'm experimenting with a few different settings too. My husband has tested both units and can verify they do what they say they do.
(The TENS 7000 is the model Dr N uses.)

 

[junkcrap50]

Had a few spare mins so I uploaded a couple of photos.
First photo is showing how we're applying the stimulation to the ear. We have modified the ear clips (ie black ear electrodes from Tenspros dot com, with a 2 mm plug) to find a solution that's comfortable and in line with where the electrodes are placed in various studies I've read. Second pic is the inexpensive TENS units we're using. They're both made in Taiwan and available on Amazon (under $30 US) and various other places including Tenspros. The TENS 7000 (which I prefer) can be set from 2 hz up and the Balego from 1 hz up.
I'm mostly using 5 hz, 250 pluse width and the power setting of 1, on "Normal" mode. I'm experimenting with a few different settings too. My husband has tested both units and can verify they do what they say they do.
(The TENS 7000 is the model Dr N uses.)
[/ATTACH]

What did you use to hold and position the red electrode?

 

[anne_likes_red]

What did you use to hold and position the red electrode?

The left ear support from a cheap earphone set. And a paperclip. My husband just threaded the red ear electrode wire into where the earphone wire was before we removed it.
He made a second one by softening (in boiling water) then moulding the right ear piece so it would also sit correctly on the left ear. There needs to be a bit of tension on the electrode that's positioned onto the concha cymbae.

 

[junkcrap50]

The left ear support from a cheap earphone set. And a paperclip. My husband just threaded the red ear electrode wire into where the earphone wire was before we removed it.
He made a second one by softening (in boiling water) then moulding the right ear piece so it would also sit correctly on the left ear. There needs to be a bit of tension on the electrode that's positioned onto the concha cymbae.

Could you take some close up pics of this? I had the hardest time trying to position the electrode in the right spot and eventually gave up. I also had the idea of using over the ear earbuds/earphones but just used tape. I'd like to see how you did it more closely. Thank you.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Could you take some close up pics of this? I had the hardest time trying to position the electrode in the right spot and eventually gave up. I also had the idea of using over the ear earbuds/earphones but just used tape. I'd like to see how you did it more closely. Thank you.

Will take some more detailed pics and post them tomorrow. Yes I 100% understand re the challenge of getting the electrode positioned so it's effective and comfortable!!!
Best,
Anne.

 

[sb4]

I am very interested in this @anne_likes_red . I have previously attempted something like this but not with the ear buds positioned like you have them. Is the positioning esentially to get this effect? I assume that is precisely where the vagus nerve meet the part of the ear so if one did not use that part of the ear they might not have gotten an effect.

Can I ask you how it improved your POTS? What is your POTS presentation, dry mouth, slow digestion?

Thanks.

 

[anne_likes_red]

@sb4 I read lotsa studies a few months ago before deciding how to proceed and the studies where they used MRI whist applying auricular t-vns suggested in my case the upper concha might be good for a trial. Another effective place seems to be the inner tragus. The vagus nerve does innervate a large part of the ear but the same neuro-modulatory effect does not apply to all points. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27898202 there are copies of the whole study available online I think, and much more if you search for t-vns or at-vns.

Slow motility - yes definitely, I saw improvement there immediately even with non electrical vagal nerve stim, which I started with first actually.
The most striking improvement is in resiliency in response to movement up and down (getting up quickly from a low chair or the ground) and in the car if we're travelling fast or around corners. My vertigo has improved, and stamina over the course of a day has too. While I am actually using the TENS (I wear it shopping, travelling in the car, to kids music lessons etc) I feel something I can best describe as micro adjustments in the ANS...to movement, to being called upon to answer a question...
I have had a couple of instances in which I have actually felt recovered - once for just a few minutes and once for a few hours. I need to crack the code on what's going on to give me that much improvement. I have a strong feeling it may be gut bacteria related and I'm hoping to try Rifaximin soon to see if I can make further headway.
I feel much more resilient in general! I've always needed to pace my exposure to too much of the news, busy noisy places, confrontational people (just as a few examples) and I seem to have a much higher tolerance for those kind of stressors...or ex stressors lol. Might be worth noting I had sensitivities in those areas prior to developing ME.

There's also clearly some anti inflammatory effect in my case. Did you ever do cold induced thermogenesis? Very much like that...without the cold. I'm assuming a significant factor in how well I respond to CiT may be vagal ==> anti inflammatory pathway related?

Hope that's helpful.. Reading back I'm thinking t-vns hasn't exactly helped me with an ability to be succinct. ...Maybe that's just around the corner...haha.

Anne.

 

[junkcrap50]

@sb4 I read lotsa studies a few months ago before deciding how to proceed and the studies where they used MRI whist applying auricular t-vns suggested in my case the upper concha might be good for a trial. Another effective place seems to be the inner tragus. The vagus nerve does innervate a large part of the ear but the same neuro-modulatory effect does not apply to all points. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27898202 there are copies of the whole study available online I think, and much more if you search for t-vns or at-vns.

Slow motility - yes definitely, I saw improvement there immediately even with non electrical vagal nerve stim, which I started with first actually.
The most striking improvement is in resiliency in response to movement up and down (getting up quickly from a low chair or the ground) and in the car if we're travelling fast or around corners. My vertigo has improved, and stamina over the course of a day has too. While I am actually using the TENS (I wear it shopping, travelling in the car, to kids music lessons etc) I feel something I can best describe as micro adjustments in the ANS...to movement, to being called upon to answer a question...
I have had a couple of instances in which I have actually felt recovered - once for just a few minutes and once for a few hours. I need to crack the code on what's going on to give me that much improvement. I have a strong feeling it may be gut bacteria related and I'm hoping to try Rifaximin soon to see if I can make further headway.
I feel much more resilient in general! I've always needed to pace my exposure to too much of the news, busy noisy places, confrontational people (just as a few examples) and I seem to have a much higher tolerance for those kind of stressors...or ex stressors lol. Might be worth noting I had sensitivities in those areas prior to developing ME.

There's also clearly some anti inflammatory effect in my case. Did you ever do cold induced thermogenesis? Very much like that...without the cold. I'm assuming a significant factor in how well I respond to CiT may be vagal ==> anti inflammatory pathway related?

Hope that's helpful.. Reading back I'm thinking t-vns hasn't exactly helped me with an ability to be succinct. ...Maybe that's just around the corner...haha.

Anne.

Any change in muscle aches, tightness, and tenseness all the time. I could really use it so my muscles relax and aren't always tense.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Any change in muscle aches, tightness, and tenseness all the time. I could really use it so my muscles relax and aren't always tense.

Yes, improvement in what I would describe as my "fibro" pain. I experienced this mostly in the hips downwards.
I have seen a number of other people mention they experience improvement in neck and shoulder pain using t-vns.

 

[sb4]

@anne_likes_red Yeah I did CT for over a year, had some benefits and draw backs, in me though, I wouldn't describe the effects as anti inflammatory.

Interesting, I may well have to try this. One more question, the part where the makeshift ear phone touches the inner ear, needs to be made of a specific material does it not. Most ear phones are plastic. Are you threading the wired out of the earphone so that the wired is squashed between the earphone and the ear? Or are you using some of that gel like transcutaneous pad stuff, connected to the wire and applied to the outside of the earphone?

 

[anne_likes_red]

Easier than that...we just plugged the red lead into the electrode off the original ear clip, which was easy enough to dismantle. At this point you could position the electrode and wear some headphones over it to keep it in place. Though you might have limited ability to move around too much without it coming loose. (I didn't try that option.)
We're waiting on some more ear electrode clips to see if reversing the electrode side of the clip (so it faces outwards instead of inwards) is a viable option. It should be. The idea is then to simply clip the electrode onto where we currently have it secured with a paper clip....it should be secure and adjustable,

 

[sb4]

@anne_likes_red I apologies, I have read your post a few times but my big dumb head can't understand it. Could you perhaps post a close up of your makeshift ear piece on the side that touches your inner ear. Is it the old earphones we are talking about here or is it you took the electrode earphones and modified them directly?

 

[junkcrap50]

@anne_likes_red I apologies, I have read your post a few times but my big dumb head can't understand it. Could you perhaps post a close up of your makeshift ear piece on the side that touches your inner ear. Is it the old earphones we are talking about here or is it you took the electrode earphones and modified them directly?

She used the frame of a type of earbud that has a frame that wraps over the ear. She some how fixed the electrode (which is one half of the "earclip electrode that she broke off), to the frame of the earbud (she used a paperclip in one and tape in another). So she split the earclip electrode so half of the earclip is on the earlobe (normal position) and the other half is on the earbuds/headphones frame so it touches the inner ear.

I'm also waiting on a close up picture.

 

[sb4]

Ahh this makes sense. Many thanks @junkcrap50

 

[anne_likes_red]

She used the frame of a type of earbud that has a frame that wraps over the ear. She some how fixed the electrode (which is one half of the "earclip electrode that she broke off), to the frame of the earbud (she used a paperclip in one and tape in another). So she split the earclip electrode so half of the earclip is on the earlobe (normal position) and the other half is on the earbuds/headphones frame so it touches the inner ear.

I'm also waiting on a close up picture.

OK retraced steps to the electronics store and found it's a Panasonic RP-HS35ME Sports Clip In-ear Headphones.

Removed the wires etc. from that so we were left with two over the ear "frames".

Prised one ear electrode (Tenspros,black 2mm plug type, they come in pairs) apart carefully to preserve the integrity of the part that connects the hinge and holds the spring in place.

Attached the electrode with a paperclip. Image 1 shows how the paperclip is used to attach the electrode to the ear frame. NB the 2 little black plastic "hoops" the paperclip wire is positioned through are part of the ear electrode and not the ear frame.
The red TENS lead is plugged into it the end of the electrode.
Image 2 shows the red electrode wires pushed into the groove round the top of the ear frame - where the original headphone wires were originally.​