Totally agree with the need of testing to get Ca:Mg ratio right. For example in my case not supplementing calcium but just getting vitamin D3 in a therapeutic range normalized serum calcium from too low. On the other hand,, magnesium being an important co-factor with vitamin D metabolism, the higher serum vitamin D levels pushed a subclinical Mg-deficiency to a very severe. Which I wasn't able to correct anymore with any of the forms of oral magnesium (tried up to 2.4 g/d of supplemental elemental Mg, in average 1.6 g/d for 10 years), but only Mg-sulfate IVs were able to correct. All the while calcium not supplemented at all remained in middle of normal range.
Glycine - advice please?
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Totally agree with the need of testing to get Ca:Mg ratio right. For example in my case not supplementing calcium but just getting vitamin D3 in a therapeutic range normalized serum calcium from too low. On the other hand,, magnesium being an important co-factor with vitamin D metabolism, the higher serum vitamin D levels pushed a subclinical Mg-deficiency to a very severe. Which I wasn't able to correct anymore with any of the forms of oral magnesium (tried up to 2.4 g/d of supplemental elemental Mg, in average 1.6 g/d for 10 years), but only Mg-sulfate IVs were able to correct. All the while calcium not supplemented at all remained in middle of normal range.
YippeeKi YOW !!
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@Alvin2
I agree, but I always add that my reaction to whatever the substance was is my reaction, YMMV ..... otherwise, you might be walling someone off from the very thing that could help them, even if it didn't help you, and in fact caused an unpleasant reaction.
This conversation reminds me why I switched from the magnesium forms mentioned here plus some others, to magnesium chloride. I have many paradoxical reaction's to these kinds of supplements, but have never had a problem with the chloride form. I know other CFS patients who react to many binders and also tolerate the chloride form well. When your goal really is the magnesium and not the binder, I think the chloride form is hard to beat. It also assists me with digestion. I don't have proof but from experience believe it improves HCl production. The point is that if one form doesn't work, there are many others to try.
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If i had a bad reaction to something that is fine for others i would not hesitate to mention it, i would just explain my experience was not the norm.
As in if i were allergic to say onions i would not tell everyone else that onions are bad for you, i would just say i can't eat them.
YippeeKi YOW !!
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@Alvin2
Thank you for clarifying that. Your previous post wasn't clear, and seemed to be implying the opposite:
Oh, my bad
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@Alvin2
No worries. I have those days, too.
Tammy
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I've never had any problems with Mag glycinate. I take 240mg-480 mg per day.
I'll throw another factor in the mix: glycine may help detox glyphosate (round-up.)
(It is suggested Glyphosate replaces glycine bc it is a similar molecule.)
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-ac...ican-nephropathy-2161-0525-1000541-99002.html
This could be why some find it problematic, in the sense that there could be a sudden Glyphosate dump the body can't handle. I have no trouble taking pure glycinate, or mag glycinate, and I do have significant (given my clean diet) levels of glyphosate via urinalysis. But we are all different, with different detox pathways etc.
Just adding this to the mix in case it's useful to someone.
(It is suggested Glyphosate replaces glycine bc it is a similar molecule.)
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-ac...ican-nephropathy-2161-0525-1000541-99002.html
This could be why some find it problematic, in the sense that there could be a sudden Glyphosate dump the body can't handle. I have no trouble taking pure glycinate, or mag glycinate, and I do have significant (given my clean diet) levels of glyphosate via urinalysis. But we are all different, with different detox pathways etc.
Just adding this to the mix in case it's useful to someone.
YippeeKi YOW !!
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I agree, and I usually take as much as 2.5 to 3 times that. It's been a real lifesaver for me, and I'm soooo glad that you've found it helpful, too
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@leela
Wow !!! I didn't know that.
It definitely will be, and I found it really interesting. It's the kind of digit of information that can unlock a deluge of deeper knowledge about any number of things, and than you for posting it !!!
Is there a list of all excitatory foods/supplements on the forum anyone can guide me to?
SlamDancin
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https://mybiohack.com/blog/balancing-excitatory-amino-acid-transporter-activity
This is a great introductory article with examples of foods/supplements/meds that help balance excitatory-inhibitory signaling in the brain through glutamate transporter function.
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@xploit
It sees that a lot of us in the ME community seem to be more sensitive to excitotoxic substances than whatever constitutes the 'normal' population, and these sensitivities will come and go, and sometimes leave entirely on their own.
HYDROLIZED ANYTHING ....
This applies particularly to hydrolyzed proteins, as in whey powders, protein pwders of any stripe including the ones that claim to be 'natural', 'pure', 'naturally processed'etc. Hydrolization is a process used to separate proteins into their amino acid component parts, as in protein pwders, pea protein, etc. The process uses either heat or acids to sever the bonds between the aminos. The free-standing aminos can cause a lot of mischief, particularly because some of them, free-glutamic acid or glutamate and even glycine especially, can cause excitotoxicity on a pretty impressive scale.
THE MSG MYTH ISN'T A MYTH AT ALL, AT LEAST FOR SOME OF US
MSG sands for monosodiumglutamate, or one glutamate molecule bonded to one sodium molecule, so free glutamic acid bonded to salt. Otherwise know as MSG. GLutamate is the primary excitotoxic, among a galaxy of lesser actors. Glutamate and GABA are both essential in the functioning of the brain and the neuro system, with GABA being the primary soother, glutamate being the primary excitor. When the equilibiu between GABA, the soother, and glutamate, the excitor, gets out of whack, serious bedlam follows.
Before this crappy little sandstorm of an illness, I had no problems with ingesting and processing MSG in all its many forms, including natural foods. Loved Chinese and Thai food, pizza, Italian sauces (tomatoes are very high in glutamate) mushrooms (a natural food source for MSG, as are many other foods), parmessan cheese (almost pure glutamate which is why it's so great in creamy sauces or sprinkled over almost anything) innumerable others things that later hit the AVOID AT ALL COSTS list.
HERE'S A LONG LIST OF FOODS AND ADDITIVES THAT ARE EXCITOTOXIC, ANYONEWITHOUT THESE PROBLEMS CAN SKIP
Accent® - this is nearly pure MSG
Ajinomoto® - this is nearly pure MSG
Autolyzed yeast - which contains high amounts of free
glutamate - it is used in many fast food items but also at major chain restaurants
Canned soup - including canned chicken broth
Carageenan
Casein – It is processed milk protein and is high in free glutamate. Found in pretty much all cheeses.
Chicken – Fried Fast food chicken, fried fast food chicken patties like a certain chain serves with waffle fries, even rotisserie chicken from the supermarket if it has any other additives besides salt.
Cold Cuts - even the "low sodium" varieties with the "heart healthy" logos.
Beet Extract is used as a coloring, but MSG is manufactured from beets and the extract may contain free glutamic acid
Boullion - any kind. The process of making it frees glutamate. Make your own soup and stock from scratch.
Caesar Salad - It usually has Parmesan cheese in the recipe.
Cheese puffs - anything that glows in the dark is processed too much. It will contain a lot of free glutamate especially if it used to be cheese.
Dough conditioners
Fish Sauce from decomposed fish protein is very high in free glutamate.
Fish Extract
Flavored snack chips - like a certain famous one flavored with "Nacho" cheese, or ones that come stacked in a can.
Flavored Potato Chips
French Fries - Fast food. They hydrolyze wheat and dairy proteins that contain glutamate and then soak their fries in that before they ship them to the fast food chain stores where they are cooked again. Why? Free glutamate they don't have to label as MSG.
Fried Chicken - from a certain famous Kentucky chain. Nearly all the foods at this particular restaurant contain MSG - even the salads.
Gelcaps used for vitamins - contain free glutamic acid in the gelatin - empty them when you can.
Gravy – restaurant, canned, dry mixes, or bottled
Glutamic Acid
Glutamine – supplement amino acid which can be converted directly to glutamate
Hot Dogs - unless they only contain fresh meat and salt and recognizable spices, or you made them yourself.
Hydrolyzed Gelatin - also found in vaccines - is 10% free glutamate by weight
Hydrolyzed Vegetable Protein (found in many processed Canned Tuna - read labels, some are safer with only salt and olive oil
Kombu extract - very high in free glutamate
Liquid Aminos - no matter where they came from. If they are called aminos, they are used as a flavor enhancer, which means the glutamate has been freed. It will behave exactly like MSG.
Low Fat Milk - A lot of low fat milk is reconstituted with non fat dry milk powder - a processed food that contains a lot of free glutamate due to processing. They add the powder back to bring up the protein content. Choose whole milk instead.
Malted Barley – malting releases 5 times more free glutamate
Malted Barley Flour - found in all-purpose flours
Meat Extract
Monopotassium glutamate
Mushrooms - naturally high in free glutamate but fresh
mushrooms are much lower in glutamate than processed foods - use sparingly.
Mushroom Soup - High in free glutamate. Moist heat can free glutamate - even in your own kitchen.
Natural Flavors - According to the FDA, "natural flavor" can contain processed hydrolyzed proteins which often contain up to 20% free glutamic acid - the active part of MSG by weight
Noodles - instant with premixed spice packs
Non-fat dry milk - found in breads
"Nutritional" Yeast - is made from highly processed, killed yeast. It is very high in free glutamate. Unfortunately, this is used a lot by low carb/ketogenic dieters lately. It is just like MSG.
Nuts – Flavored varieties
Over-ripe tomatoes - naturally high in free glutamate - Use sparingly. Cook Quickly. Tomato sauce does not need to cook all day. A little baking soda cuts the acid immediately.
Parmesan Cheese - naturally high in free glutamate. It is aged a long time. Aging naturally frees more amino acids.
The fresher the cheese, the less processed it is - the less free glutamate will be there.
Pre-Seasoned Flours - commercial brands
Powdered cheese
Powdered dry food mixes that are salty
Processed cheese spread
Protein drink powders for body builders
Ranch Dressing bottled and dry mixes often seen in veggie dip
Salad Dressings. Bottled and dried mixes often have MSG added
Sausages - read labels - most commercial sausages contain MSG, most fast food breakfast items with sausage in them have MSG added in some form
Seaweed, dried, in a salad, in a soup, anywhere - seaweed is what MSG was first isolated from. If you are MSG sensitive - you need to avoid seaweed and foods derived from it. If you like sushi like I do, choose sashimi instead.
Sodium Caseinate - Casein is processed protein from milk - and is high in free glutamate
Soup Mix - Instant dried - often used in veggie platter dips
Soups – in restaurants they may come from a can
Soy Sauce - naturally contains 1% free glutamate by weight. cheaper versions also contain added hydrolyzed wheat protein, which is the food MSG was first isolated from
Soy Protein Isolate
Tangle extract (seaweed extract) - Seaweed is what MSG was first isolated from.
Textured protein - Unfortunately, this is popular with a lot of vegans right now. Food Manufacturers make "fake" meat with this. The proteins used are high in glutamate.
Tomato Soup - High in free glutamate. Moist heat can free glutamate - even in your own kitchen.
Ultra-Pasteurized Cream - heated to very high temperatures. Heating also desroys any natural thickening property of cream. In order to put that back, manufacturers put MSG containing additives and thickeners like carageenan into teh cream to make it "whip" again.
Ultra-Pasteurized Milk - heated to very high temperatures, more glutamate is freed. I use pasteurized whole milk instead. The "Ultra" is a misleading short cut that ruins the milk even though it extends the shelf life.
Umami pastes - even if they say they are an MSG substitute. They are high in free glutamate which is functionally the same thing.
Worcestershire Sauce
Yeast spreads popular in the UK and Australia
Yeast Extract
I hope this helps.
I found that magnesium glycinate, in smll doses (50 mg) every 45 - 60 min's gradually eliminated all my excitotoxically produced anxiety, probably because it blocks the NMDA receptors.
Apologies for the long post, but it's valuable information if you need it. Otherwise, it's just a long, boring post.
I did a very long and probably very boring post on exactly this, but now I can't remember where, so until I do, here's a very short version, for starters.
It sees that a lot of us in the ME community seem to be more sensitive to excitotoxic substances than whatever constitutes the 'normal' population, and these sensitivities will come and go, and sometimes leave entirely on their own.
HYDROLIZED ANYTHING ....
This applies particularly to hydrolyzed proteins, as in whey powders, protein pwders of any stripe including the ones that claim to be 'natural', 'pure', 'naturally processed'etc. Hydrolization is a process used to separate proteins into their amino acid component parts, as in protein pwders, pea protein, etc. The process uses either heat or acids to sever the bonds between the aminos. The free-standing aminos can cause a lot of mischief, particularly because some of them, free-glutamic acid or glutamate and even glycine especially, can cause excitotoxicity on a pretty impressive scale.
THE MSG MYTH ISN'T A MYTH AT ALL, AT LEAST FOR SOME OF US
MSG sands for monosodiumglutamate, or one glutamate molecule bonded to one sodium molecule, so free glutamic acid bonded to salt. Otherwise know as MSG. GLutamate is the primary excitotoxic, among a galaxy of lesser actors. Glutamate and GABA are both essential in the functioning of the brain and the neuro system, with GABA being the primary soother, glutamate being the primary excitor. When the equilibiu between GABA, the soother, and glutamate, the excitor, gets out of whack, serious bedlam follows.
Before this crappy little sandstorm of an illness, I had no problems with ingesting and processing MSG in all its many forms, including natural foods. Loved Chinese and Thai food, pizza, Italian sauces (tomatoes are very high in glutamate) mushrooms (a natural food source for MSG, as are many other foods), parmessan cheese (almost pure glutamate which is why it's so great in creamy sauces or sprinkled over almost anything) innumerable others things that later hit the AVOID AT ALL COSTS list.
HERE'S A LONG LIST OF FOODS AND ADDITIVES THAT ARE EXCITOTOXIC, ANYONEWITHOUT THESE PROBLEMS CAN SKIP
Accent® - this is nearly pure MSG
Ajinomoto® - this is nearly pure MSG
Autolyzed yeast - which contains high amounts of free
glutamate - it is used in many fast food items but also at major chain restaurants
Canned soup - including canned chicken broth
Carageenan
Casein – It is processed milk protein and is high in free glutamate. Found in pretty much all cheeses.
Chicken – Fried Fast food chicken, fried fast food chicken patties like a certain chain serves with waffle fries, even rotisserie chicken from the supermarket if it has any other additives besides salt.
Cold Cuts - even the "low sodium" varieties with the "heart healthy" logos.
Beet Extract is used as a coloring, but MSG is manufactured from beets and the extract may contain free glutamic acid
Boullion - any kind. The process of making it frees glutamate. Make your own soup and stock from scratch.
Caesar Salad - It usually has Parmesan cheese in the recipe.
Cheese puffs - anything that glows in the dark is processed too much. It will contain a lot of free glutamate especially if it used to be cheese.
Dough conditioners
Fish Sauce from decomposed fish protein is very high in free glutamate.
Fish Extract
Flavored snack chips - like a certain famous one flavored with "Nacho" cheese, or ones that come stacked in a can.
Flavored Potato Chips
French Fries - Fast food. They hydrolyze wheat and dairy proteins that contain glutamate and then soak their fries in that before they ship them to the fast food chain stores where they are cooked again. Why? Free glutamate they don't have to label as MSG.
Fried Chicken - from a certain famous Kentucky chain. Nearly all the foods at this particular restaurant contain MSG - even the salads.
Gelcaps used for vitamins - contain free glutamic acid in the gelatin - empty them when you can.
Gravy – restaurant, canned, dry mixes, or bottled
Glutamic Acid
Glutamine – supplement amino acid which can be converted directly to glutamate
Hot Dogs - unless they only contain fresh meat and salt and recognizable spices, or you made them yourself.
Hydrolyzed Gelatin - also found in vaccines - is 10% free glutamate by weight
Hydrolyzed Vegetable Protein (found in many processed Canned Tuna - read labels, some are safer with only salt and olive oil
Kombu extract - very high in free glutamate
Liquid Aminos - no matter where they came from. If they are called aminos, they are used as a flavor enhancer, which means the glutamate has been freed. It will behave exactly like MSG.
Low Fat Milk - A lot of low fat milk is reconstituted with non fat dry milk powder - a processed food that contains a lot of free glutamate due to processing. They add the powder back to bring up the protein content. Choose whole milk instead.
Malted Barley – malting releases 5 times more free glutamate
Malted Barley Flour - found in all-purpose flours
Meat Extract
Monopotassium glutamate
Mushrooms - naturally high in free glutamate but fresh
mushrooms are much lower in glutamate than processed foods - use sparingly.
Mushroom Soup - High in free glutamate. Moist heat can free glutamate - even in your own kitchen.
Natural Flavors - According to the FDA, "natural flavor" can contain processed hydrolyzed proteins which often contain up to 20% free glutamic acid - the active part of MSG by weight
Noodles - instant with premixed spice packs
Non-fat dry milk - found in breads
"Nutritional" Yeast - is made from highly processed, killed yeast. It is very high in free glutamate. Unfortunately, this is used a lot by low carb/ketogenic dieters lately. It is just like MSG.
Nuts – Flavored varieties
Over-ripe tomatoes - naturally high in free glutamate - Use sparingly. Cook Quickly. Tomato sauce does not need to cook all day. A little baking soda cuts the acid immediately.
Parmesan Cheese - naturally high in free glutamate. It is aged a long time. Aging naturally frees more amino acids.
The fresher the cheese, the less processed it is - the less free glutamate will be there.
Pre-Seasoned Flours - commercial brands
Powdered cheese
Powdered dry food mixes that are salty
Processed cheese spread
Protein drink powders for body builders
Ranch Dressing bottled and dry mixes often seen in veggie dip
Salad Dressings. Bottled and dried mixes often have MSG added
Sausages - read labels - most commercial sausages contain MSG, most fast food breakfast items with sausage in them have MSG added in some form
Seaweed, dried, in a salad, in a soup, anywhere - seaweed is what MSG was first isolated from. If you are MSG sensitive - you need to avoid seaweed and foods derived from it. If you like sushi like I do, choose sashimi instead.
Sodium Caseinate - Casein is processed protein from milk - and is high in free glutamate
Soup Mix - Instant dried - often used in veggie platter dips
Soups – in restaurants they may come from a can
Soy Sauce - naturally contains 1% free glutamate by weight. cheaper versions also contain added hydrolyzed wheat protein, which is the food MSG was first isolated from
Soy Protein Isolate
Tangle extract (seaweed extract) - Seaweed is what MSG was first isolated from.
Textured protein - Unfortunately, this is popular with a lot of vegans right now. Food Manufacturers make "fake" meat with this. The proteins used are high in glutamate.
Tomato Soup - High in free glutamate. Moist heat can free glutamate - even in your own kitchen.
Ultra-Pasteurized Cream - heated to very high temperatures. Heating also desroys any natural thickening property of cream. In order to put that back, manufacturers put MSG containing additives and thickeners like carageenan into teh cream to make it "whip" again.
Ultra-Pasteurized Milk - heated to very high temperatures, more glutamate is freed. I use pasteurized whole milk instead. The "Ultra" is a misleading short cut that ruins the milk even though it extends the shelf life.
Umami pastes - even if they say they are an MSG substitute. They are high in free glutamate which is functionally the same thing.
Worcestershire Sauce
Yeast spreads popular in the UK and Australia
Yeast Extract
___________________________________
I hope this helps.
I found that magnesium glycinate, in smll doses (50 mg) every 45 - 60 min's gradually eliminated all my excitotoxically produced anxiety, probably because it blocks the NMDA receptors.
Apologies for the long post, but it's valuable information if you need it. Otherwise, it's just a long, boring post.
Carl
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You and everyone on this forum is not getting sufficient glycine! The requirement for a healthy adult is thought to be around 14.5 to 16 grams/day. For a sick person that can rise to 60 grams! How close to that do you get?
A weak link in metabolism: the metabolic capacity for glycine biosynthesis does not satisfy the need for collagen synthesis
The above article extends to other more important areas. Glycine is the primary amino acid in the liver phase 2 amino acid conjugation detoxification which is significantly raised in CFS because of Increased Digestive Permeability flooding the bloodstream with waste products and undigested food molecules.
You do need to be careful because it could raise Glutathione production which might cause an increase of detox reactions. Cysteine is the rate limiting amino acid in glutathione production and cysteine also gets used up meeting the bodies sulphur requirements. Taking things like MSM can spare cysteine for glutathione production rather than it being used to produce sulphur. MSM is known to raise glutathione levels for this reason.
I urge anyone to take it easy and go slowly without rushing into things.
Cant thank you enough for this, its like a puzzle being solved and Glutamate being the final piece, When you mentioned Rotesserie chicken and asian sauces, it took me back to my mid 20's (Im 34 now) when I migrated to Australia as a student and found these foods for the 1st time since back home in India we always ate fresh and homecooked. But for a student at that time, those mentioned foods were cheap, tasty and easily accessible to me and I gorged on them almost everyday. Later when I joined a gym and started supplementing (heavily) the so called healthy whey protein powders my health started going downhill further (Gluten/lactose intolerance, Extreme bloating, low Vit D, Joint pains/headache/brainfog, Depression, Low stomach HCL, high cholestrol etc). I am not sure how much damage Glutamate has done to my Liver/Pancreas, but currently anything excitatory (B vitamins, Vitamin C fruits, Calcium rich foods, Potassium foods, Sugar drinks etc) gives me certain body reactions (Itchy scalp/skin, mood disorders, fatigue, extreme bloating).
I have Magnesium Glycinate (Gelatin capsule) so will empty them and mix it with water.
Btw if you had to give a timeline, how long before Magnesium finally solve all the excitatory and other gut issues? Also what does your diet look like now and do you occasionally eat Glutamate foods? Thanks again for your help.
YippeeKi YOW !!
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@xploit316
I cant tell you how good it makes me feel to be able to turn several years of agony into something useful to other fellow-sufferers!!! You've lifted my spirits, which are considerably saggy today.
We have the same list of sensitivities. I still haven't had the courage to try to cycle even tiny amounts of B-Comp, calcium, lecithin, selenomethionine, p-5-p, and a few others back into my life. I've substituted desiccated beef liver from New Zealand, which is very high in B-vits and Vit A among at least half-a dozen-plus others. To get more collagen into my diet, I use desiccated bone marrow, also from New Zealand cows. New Zealand has the most rigid, and rigorously enforced, restrictions on things like rBST, any hormone of any sort, antibiotics, and grain feed of any country on the planet, and they take it really seriously. Their cows are healthy, happy little frolickers in lovely fields of clover, or at least that's the way I prefer to imagine it.
It was a looooong road back. Here's a thumbnail of how I did it: I just kept cutting out foods and supplements that I could tell I was reacting to, which took some time because I can be pretty dense, until I was down pretty much to air, water, and non-aged cheese's like mozzarella to try to maintain some level of protein. I found that the casein present in all cheeses was much less troublesome to my neuro and body generally in fresh mozzarella. I found a good multi I could tolerate in a veg cap and supplemented my miserable diet with that. Eventually I found a liquid VIt D and K7 and K4 that eliminated my violent and almost immediate reaction (still today, tho I havent had the courage to test that out yet) to gel caps of any sort, and everything good for the brain like lecithin, phosphatidylserine, Omega 3 oil, Vit D, etc all come in gel caps.
After a whole lot of experimentation, with lots of false starts and dark alleys (I was mugged badly by everything that seemed to help everyone else, including theanine, de-caf green tea, taurine, the list goes on but unfortunately, the brain seems to have slammed shut), I finally, after reading every study I could get my hands on and wrap my two remaining brain cells around, started experimenting with magnesium glycinate. I chose mag gly in spite of the glycine in it because of the high bowel tolerance that it allows.
After almost 2 years of ever-increasing panic attacks, until they were pretty much every day all day ..... no, not pretty much, they were every day, all day, some of them lasting for 19 hours straight with no break or relief, I really thought I was going to die. Or kill myself. I won't go into the 2 trips to the ER or the damage that was done there, but after the second one, I realized that there were no answers there.
CUTTING TO THE CHASE HERE ....
When larger doses, like 200 mgs 3 times a day, did nothing, I tried higher doses, slightly longer intervals. Nada. By trial and error, I finally hit on what turned out to be the solution: 50 mgs (I use SOlgar's Chelated Magnesium, which is mag chelated to glycine, and comes in a nice oblong 100 mg tablet, easy to clip more or less in half) every 30, 45, or 60 minutes. I didn't worry about hypermagnesemia because I felt like I was dying anyway, so what the hell. It gradually started taking the edge off a little. I added in 250 mcgs (1/4 of a 1 mg tablet) of rapid acting melatonin, based on something I'd read and half understood, when the mag gly didn;t seem to be kicking in. It took around 4-5 months before I had my first day of low-impact panic, at wider intervals than usual. And it just got better from there. Another month or so, and I finally had a decent night's sleep. And then a litle further down the road, most of a day with no panic attacks at all.
The culprit in excitotoxicity isnt just the glutamate. In an oft-quoted reference which I'd attribute if I could remember where I first read it several years ago, glutamate is the gun, but calcium is the bullet. Tht led me on another plodding research trek, where I learned that magnesium blocks the NMDA receptors and therefore the damaging calcium, and interrupts the progression of the excitotoxic reaction. This is wildly simplified, largely because I'm having a dismal day with throbbing head and low back ache and touchy knees and am having trouble thinking and concentrating. Happy to have it instead of the chest-ripping, heart-pounding, gut-wrnching, sweating, pounding head, racing heart anxiety attacks, believe me. And this is an occasional thing, not an everyday screeching albatross of compounded misery.
And yes, Ive been able to add back some glutamate foods: dried porcini mushrooms in moderation, as part of a sauce for stuff that otherwise isnt all that tasty. A wider range of cheeses, staying away from the really toothsome ones like parmessan, at least for now. Red meat, med rare, once or twice a week for the better range of aminos and some relatively organic forms of sulfur that red meat provides.
There's more, but I'm really wrung out, xploit. I just really wanted to get the bare bones to you.
I totally feel your pain over the yummy rotisserie chickens, and lovely gooey pizzas loaded with garlic and black olives, and tacos in crispy/soggy shells loaded with meaty goodness and mild salsa ..... the list goes on. But I'm betting you already know all that.
Please, please let me know how you're doing, or tag me if you have a question (just put the @ in front of my user name, and I'll wing my way to you as fast as I can, unless I'm having one of those days, then I usually stay off the threads here) or if there's anything more you need to know.
I'll come back later with some more info re free glutamic acid and all its many little weasely names, used by an industry that knows that it's selling what, to some of us, is essentially a poison, but don't want us to know that. Or what we're putting in our mouths. Their creativity is absolutely awesome. That's a rant for another day.
Be well, and don't disappear, hear?
I cant tell you how good it makes me feel to be able to turn several years of agony into something useful to other fellow-sufferers!!! You've lifted my spirits, which are considerably saggy today.
We have the same list of sensitivities. I still haven't had the courage to try to cycle even tiny amounts of B-Comp, calcium, lecithin, selenomethionine, p-5-p, and a few others back into my life. I've substituted desiccated beef liver from New Zealand, which is very high in B-vits and Vit A among at least half-a dozen-plus others. To get more collagen into my diet, I use desiccated bone marrow, also from New Zealand cows. New Zealand has the most rigid, and rigorously enforced, restrictions on things like rBST, any hormone of any sort, antibiotics, and grain feed of any country on the planet, and they take it really seriously. Their cows are healthy, happy little frolickers in lovely fields of clover, or at least that's the way I prefer to imagine it.
It was a looooong road back. Here's a thumbnail of how I did it: I just kept cutting out foods and supplements that I could tell I was reacting to, which took some time because I can be pretty dense, until I was down pretty much to air, water, and non-aged cheese's like mozzarella to try to maintain some level of protein. I found that the casein present in all cheeses was much less troublesome to my neuro and body generally in fresh mozzarella. I found a good multi I could tolerate in a veg cap and supplemented my miserable diet with that. Eventually I found a liquid VIt D and K7 and K4 that eliminated my violent and almost immediate reaction (still today, tho I havent had the courage to test that out yet) to gel caps of any sort, and everything good for the brain like lecithin, phosphatidylserine, Omega 3 oil, Vit D, etc all come in gel caps.
After a whole lot of experimentation, with lots of false starts and dark alleys (I was mugged badly by everything that seemed to help everyone else, including theanine, de-caf green tea, taurine, the list goes on but unfortunately, the brain seems to have slammed shut), I finally, after reading every study I could get my hands on and wrap my two remaining brain cells around, started experimenting with magnesium glycinate. I chose mag gly in spite of the glycine in it because of the high bowel tolerance that it allows.
After almost 2 years of ever-increasing panic attacks, until they were pretty much every day all day ..... no, not pretty much, they were every day, all day, some of them lasting for 19 hours straight with no break or relief, I really thought I was going to die. Or kill myself. I won't go into the 2 trips to the ER or the damage that was done there, but after the second one, I realized that there were no answers there.
CUTTING TO THE CHASE HERE ....
When larger doses, like 200 mgs 3 times a day, did nothing, I tried higher doses, slightly longer intervals. Nada. By trial and error, I finally hit on what turned out to be the solution: 50 mgs (I use SOlgar's Chelated Magnesium, which is mag chelated to glycine, and comes in a nice oblong 100 mg tablet, easy to clip more or less in half) every 30, 45, or 60 minutes. I didn't worry about hypermagnesemia because I felt like I was dying anyway, so what the hell. It gradually started taking the edge off a little. I added in 250 mcgs (1/4 of a 1 mg tablet) of rapid acting melatonin, based on something I'd read and half understood, when the mag gly didn;t seem to be kicking in. It took around 4-5 months before I had my first day of low-impact panic, at wider intervals than usual. And it just got better from there. Another month or so, and I finally had a decent night's sleep. And then a litle further down the road, most of a day with no panic attacks at all.
The culprit in excitotoxicity isnt just the glutamate. In an oft-quoted reference which I'd attribute if I could remember where I first read it several years ago, glutamate is the gun, but calcium is the bullet. Tht led me on another plodding research trek, where I learned that magnesium blocks the NMDA receptors and therefore the damaging calcium, and interrupts the progression of the excitotoxic reaction. This is wildly simplified, largely because I'm having a dismal day with throbbing head and low back ache and touchy knees and am having trouble thinking and concentrating. Happy to have it instead of the chest-ripping, heart-pounding, gut-wrnching, sweating, pounding head, racing heart anxiety attacks, believe me. And this is an occasional thing, not an everyday screeching albatross of compounded misery.
And yes, Ive been able to add back some glutamate foods: dried porcini mushrooms in moderation, as part of a sauce for stuff that otherwise isnt all that tasty. A wider range of cheeses, staying away from the really toothsome ones like parmessan, at least for now. Red meat, med rare, once or twice a week for the better range of aminos and some relatively organic forms of sulfur that red meat provides.
There's more, but I'm really wrung out, xploit. I just really wanted to get the bare bones to you.
I totally feel your pain over the yummy rotisserie chickens, and lovely gooey pizzas loaded with garlic and black olives, and tacos in crispy/soggy shells loaded with meaty goodness and mild salsa ..... the list goes on. But I'm betting you already know all that.
Please, please let me know how you're doing, or tag me if you have a question (just put the @ in front of my user name, and I'll wing my way to you as fast as I can, unless I'm having one of those days, then I usually stay off the threads here) or if there's anything more you need to know.
I'll come back later with some more info re free glutamic acid and all its many little weasely names, used by an industry that knows that it's selling what, to some of us, is essentially a poison, but don't want us to know that. Or what we're putting in our mouths. Their creativity is absolutely awesome. That's a rant for another day.
Be well, and don't disappear, hear?
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YippeeKi YOW !!
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@xploit316
I used Tara's Whey Protein as a steady morning and afternoon booster for years before it turned on me, but that was the first thing I zeroed in on and cut out. It left me sadly bereft of easy protein ...... hard adjustment.
@xploit316
I cant tell you how good it makes me feel to be able to turn several years of agony into something useful to other fellow-sufferers!!! You've lifted my spirits, which are considerably saggy today.
We have the same list of sensitivities. I still haven't had the courage to try to cycle even tiny amounts of B-Comp, calcium, lecithin, selenomethionine, p-5-p, and a few others back into my life. I've substituted desiccated beef liver from New Zealand, which is very high in B-vits and Vit A among at least half-a dozen-plus others. To get more collagen into my diet, I use desiccated bone marrow, also from New Zealand cows. New Zealand has the most rigid, and rigorously enforced, restrictions on things like rBST, any hormone of any sort, antibiotics, and grain feed of any country on the planet, and they take it really seriously. Their cows are healthy, happy little frolickers in lovely fields of clover, or at least that's the way I prefer to imagine it.
It was a looooong road back. Here's a thumbnail of how I did it: I just kept cutting out foods and supplements that I could tell I was reacting to, which took some time because I can be pretty dense, until I was down pretty much to air, water, and non-aged cheese's like mozzarella to try to maintain some level of protein. I found that the casein present in all cheeses was much less troublesome to my neuro and body generally in fresh mozzarella. I found a good multi I could tolerate in a veg cap and supplemented my miserable diet with that. Eventually I found a liquid VIt D and K7 and K4 that eliminated my violent and almost immediate reaction (still today, tho I havent had the courage to test that out yet) to gel caps of any sort, and everything good for the brain like lecithin, phosphatidylserine, Omega 3 oil, Vit D, etc all come in gel caps.
After a whole lot of experimentation, with lots of false starts and dark alleys (I was mugged badly by everything that seemed to help everyone else, including theanine, de-caf green tea, taurine, the list goes on but unfortunately, the brain seems to have slammed shut), I finally, after reading every study I could get my hands on and wrap my two remaining brain cells around, started experimenting with magnesium glycinate. I chose mag gly in spite of the glycine in it because of the high bowel tolerance that it allows.
After almost 2 years of ever-increasing panic attacks, until they were pretty much every day all day ..... no, not pretty much, they were every day, all day, some of them lasting for 19 hours straight with no break or relief, I really thought I was going to die. Or kill myself. I won't go into the 2 trips to the ER or the damage that was done there, but after the second one, I realized that there were no answers there.
CUTTING TO THE CHASE HERE ....
When larger doses, like 200 mgs 3 times a day, did nothing, I tried higher doses, slightly longer intervals. Nada. By trial and error, I finally hit on what turned out to be the solution: 50 mgs (I use SOlgar's Chelated Magnesium, which is mag chelated to glycine, and comes in a nice oblong 100 mg tablet, easy to clip more or less in half) every 30, 45, or 60 minutes. I didn't worry about hypermagnesemia because I felt like I was dying anyway, so what the hell. It gradually started taking the edge off a little. I added in 250 mcgs (1/4 of a 1 mg tablet) of rapid acting melatonin, based on something I'd read and half understood, when the mag gly didn;t seem to be kicking in. It took around 4-5 months before I had my first day of low-impact panic, at wider intervals than usual. And it just got better from there. Another month or so, and I finally had a decent night's sleep. And then a litle further down the road, most of a day with no panic attacks at all.
The culprit in excitotoxicity isnt just the glutamate. In an oft-quoted reference which I'd attribute if I could remember where I first read it several years ago, glutamate is the gun, but calcium is the bullet. Tht led me on another plodding research trek, where I learned that magnesium blocks the NMDA receptors and therefore the damaging calcium, and interrupts the progression of the excitotoxic reaction. This is wildly simplified, largely because I'm having a dismal day with throbbing head and low back ache and touchy knees and am having trouble thinking and concentrating. Happy to have it instead of the chest-ripping, heart-pounding, gut-wrnching, sweating, pounding head, racing heart anxiety attacks, believe me. And this is an occasional thing, not an everyday screeching albatross of compounded misery.
And yes, Ive been able to add back some glutamate foods: dried porcini mushrooms in moderation, as part of a sauce for stuff that otherwise isnt all that tasty. A wider range of cheeses, staying away from the really toothsome ones like parmessan, at least for now. Red meat, med rare, once or twice a week for the better range of aminos and some relatively organic forms of sulfur that red meat provides.
There's more, but I'm really wrung out, xploit. I just really wanted to get the bare bones to you.
I totally feel your pain over the yummy rotisserie chickens, and lovely gooey pizzas loaded with garlic and black olives, and tacos in crispy/soggy shells loaded with meaty goodness and mild salsa ..... the list goes on. But I'm betting you already know all that.
Please, please let me know how you're doing, or tag me if you have a question (just put the @ in front of my user name, and I'll wing my way to you as fast as I can, unless I'm having one of those days, then I usually stay off the threads here) or if there's anything more you need to know.
I'll come back later with some more info re free glutamic acid and all its many little weasely names, used by an industry that knows that it's selling what, to some of us, is essentially a poison, but don't want us to know that. Or what we're putting in our mouths. Their creativity is absolutely awesome. That's a rant for another day.
Be well, and don't disappear, hear?
Thanks a lot, its sad we must face these issues just because of corporate greed and the hypocritical lies towards marketing unsafe foods as healthy . But we are in this together, to find solutions that can help us move forward and enjoy the other, finer things in life.
I just re-opened my Solaray 400Mg Mag Glycinate bottle, took a capsule and emptied a tiny bit into a glass a water, drank it and after like half an hour having a pretty bad headache. Cant remember but I think this was the same reason I had stopped taking it in the 1st place, maybe Glycine is excitatory to me ( I dont do well with many supplements unfortunately, so far only Biotics Research Betaine HCL and Wobenzym (Pancreatic enzymes) seem to have done me some good. Any other Magnesium sources (less excitatory) that any members had success with? Also I read about Vit K, Lithium orotate (others?) that help convert glutamate into Gaba, any success with them?