Glycine - advice please?

Sarah94

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I want to switch my magnesium citrate (400mg each night) to magnesium glycinate. Because I have been informed that citrate can contribute to glutamate which may have a negative effect on sleep. And people say that mag glycinate is generally the best for relaxing you and helping you sleep.

I've got the new supplement, and, having done a bit of research in a chemistry forum, it seems that the mag glycinate supplement, which provides 400mg of magnesium, also provides about 2500mg of glycine.

Apparently an average diet provides around 2000mg of glycine a day. Mine might have a little more.

So if I switch suddenly from the mag citrate onto the mag glycinate, then I am potentially doubling my glycine intake. Is this something that I should be cautious about? I know the old "start low and go slow" advice. I know that glycine does various things in the body including its needed for glutathione production. Do I risk bad effects if I increase glutathione production too quickly?

I kinda want to just switch the mag citrate for the mag glycinate all at once, because I want to improve my sleep as quickly as possible. But don't want to risk giving myself a Herx effect or something...

Would it be more sensible to do something like:
1 week - 100mg glycinate, 300mg citrate
1 week - 200mg of each
1 week - 300 gly, 100 cit
Then 400mg glycinate from thereon in

If so, that's a pain, as my mag citrate is in 400mg capsules, so I'd have to buy a 100mg mag citrate supplement for the switchover period.
 
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Pyrrhus

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I want to switch my magnesium citrate (400mg each night) to magnesium glycinate. Because I have been informed that citrate can contribute to glutamate which may have a negative effect on sleep.
I can’t see any way that citrate consumption can significantly contribute to glutamate production. You may want to double-check that info you received.

I know that glycine does various things in the body including its needed for glutathione production. Do I risk bad effects if I increase glutathione production too quickly?
I doubt that glycine consumption will significantly increase glutathione production. The rate-limiting ingredient for glutathione production is cysteine, not glycine. This is why people take n-acetyl-cysteine to boost glutathione. Many people do have significant start-up effects when they boost glutathione production.

Since you’re taking such large daily doses of magnesium, you should consider taking daily calcium as well. The body needs to maintain a stable ratio of calcium to magnesium for proper nerve function.

Hope this helps.
 

Mary

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Hi @Sarah Metcalf - I did have trouble with magnesium citrate causing insomnia, though it took me awhile to figure it out. I read the same thing, that citrate can contribute to glutamate, causing insomnia. My sleep improved markedly when I switched to mag glycinate.

Re glycine - I didn't have any trouble switching from mag citrate to mag glycinate. However, I'd already been through a somewhat rough introductory period with glycine some 4 years ago in the form of an amino acid not bound to magnesium.

When I first took pure glycine (I forget the dose, probably 1000 mg) for sleep 4 years ago it hit me like a truck. It caused a severe detox reaction - I got extremely spacey (got lost going to my sister's house), tired, etc. But it helped me sleep. I had to go down to a very low dose and over a period of 4 - 6 months I increased it very slowly, my tolerance for it increased and finally the detox just stopped happening. I think the glycine got my detox pathways working how they should (together with inositol and glutamine [can no longer take glutamine due to glutamate]).

So when I switched from mag citrate to mag glycinate I had no bad reaction.

So I don't know how you might react to magnesium glycinate. I know, not what you want to hear! I don't know how bioavailable the glycine in magnesium glycinate is.

Why don't you try initially just adding 100 mg.magnesium glycinate to your 400 mg. citrate and see if you notice anything. I don't think taking another 100 mg. magnesium should hurt you - I take 800 mg. mag glycinate at night - 400 mg. before bed and 400 mg. middle of the night.

And if you have no reaction, then try increasing it. I reacted to glycine right away, there was no delay, so hopefully if you are going to react to it, you would know pretty quickly.

Also, i'd had a LOT of problems with detoxing for many years before starting the glycine. And I think it was primarily the glycine, and the inositol and glutamine to a lesser extent, which was responsible for apparently fixing my detox pathways. I almost never get detox reactions any more.
 
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@Sarah Metcalf
I kinda want to just switch the mag citrate for the mag glycinate all at once, because I want to improve my sleep as quickly as possible. But don't want to risk giving myself a Herx effect or something...
For what it's worth, I've been taking mag glycinate for other issues for almost a year now, with no problems at all. And I take a lot. I use 50 mgs every hour for anxiety/panic, on a bad day that would total some 1100 mgs of mag glycinate, and another 100 mgs at nite with 1 mg melatonin for sleep with no ill effects at all.
I can’t see any way that citrate consumption can significantly contribute to glutamate production. You may want to double-check that info you received.
There’s several ways. Citrate is not, as many, including me, used to believe, another form of Vit C, like ascorbic acid. It’s part of the Krebs, or Citric Acid cycle, and can contribute to the production of glutamate as a result of its complex series of conversions in this cycle. And while the human body requires citrate for numerous processes, the citrate that the body produces naturally is miles away from the chemically produced, highly processed citrate included in multiple supplements and processed foods. The addition of this artificial citrate could throw the body into tilt by interfering with the natural Krebs cycle production, or being additively too much for normal function.

So while yes, the body produces citrate, this is achieved during a natural endogenous process that the body has evolved to conform with fairly predictable demands, and the level of citrate produced is vital to its functioning without causing any adverse effects. However, when it is introduced via an unnatural route in an unnatural concentration, it’s entirely possible that the body's chemical balance is disrupted. Just as salt is present in the blood (0.9% saline), but eating too much salt, in unnatural concentrations added to food, can be harmful.

BUT WAIT, THERE’S MORE ….

There’s also the problem of manufacturing. Almost all citric acid/citrate is produced from corn, and practically no manufacturer takes the time and expense involved in removing all the protein particles during that process, so the final, highly refined product contains anywhere from trace to larger amounts of glutamic and aspartic acids, both of which are known excitotoxins and not conducive to either good sleep or good health, generally.

I’m not sure that mag citrate is more bioavailable than mag glycinate, which is one of the more bioavailable forms, and which additionally doesn’t have the unpleasant bowel effects of other forms, particularly mag citrate which is sometimes used as a ‘natural’ laxative.

And while I had to stop taking gelatin at night for better sleep because of reactions to all those free aminos, including glycine, I’ve had no reaction to mag glycinate.

There’s no need to taper off one and slowly transfer to the other. The primary ingredient is the magnesium, which needs to be bound to something else to aid in absorption and make it more tolerable and available to the human body. The change in binders shouldn’t produce any effect at all, in terms of withdrawal or herx responses, at least not in my experience.

Go ahead and switch to mag glycinate. I use Solgar’s Chelated Magnesium, which is magnesium bound to glycine, and comes in 100 mg tablet form, making it easy to titrate a dose to your specific requirements.

So rock on Sarah, and rest well.

Since you’re taking such large daily doses of magnesium, you should consider taking daily calcium as well.
True, but make sure to separate them. Calcium will interfere with the body's absorption of magnesium, and vice versa.
 
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@Sarah Metcalf

For what it's worth, I've been taking mag glycinate for other issues for almost a year now, with no problems at all. And I take a lot. I use 50 mgs every hour for anxiety/panic, on a bad day that would total some 1100 mgs of mag glycinate, and another 100 mgs at nite with 1 mg melatonin for sleep with no ill effects at all.

There’s several ways. Citrate is not, as many, including me, used to believe, another form of Vit C, like ascorbic acid. It’s part of the Krebs, or Citric Acid cycle, and can contribute to the production of glutamate as a result of its complex series of conversions in this cycle. And while the human body requires citrate for numerous processes, the citrate that the body produces naturally is miles away from the chemically produced, highly processed citrate included in multiple supplements and processed foods. The addition of this artificial citrate could throw the body into tilt by interfering with the natural Krebs cycle production, or being additively too much for normal function.

So while yes, the body produces citrate, this is achieved during a natural endogenous process that the body has evolved to conform with fairly predictable demands, and the level of citrate produced is vital to its functioning without causing any adverse effects. However, when it is introduced via an unnatural route in an unnatural concentration, it’s entirely possible that the body's chemical balance is disrupted. Just as salt is present in the blood (0.9% saline), but eating too much salt, in unnatural concentrations added to food, can be harmful.

BUT WAIT, THERE’S MORE ….

There’s also the problem of manufacturing. Almost all citric acid/citrate is produced from corn, and practically no manufacturer takes the time and expense involved in removing all the protein particles during that process, so the final, highly refined product contains anywhere from trace to larger amounts of glutamic and aspartic acids, both of which are known excitotoxins and not conducive to either good sleep or good health, generally.

I’m not sure that mag citrate is more bioavailable than mag glycinate, which is one of the more bioavailable forms, and which additionally doesn’t have the unpleasant bowel effects of other forms, particularly mag citrate which is sometimes used as a ‘natural’ laxative.

And while I had to stop taking gelatin at night for better sleep because of reactions to all those free aminos, including glycine, I’ve had no reaction to mag glycinate.

There’s no need to taper off one and slowly transfer to the other. The primary ingredient is the magnesium, which needs to be bound to something else to aid in absorption and make it more tolerable and available to the human body. The change in binders shouldn’t produce any effect at all, in terms of withdrawal or herx responses, at least not in my experience.

Go ahead and switch to mag glycinate. I use Solgar’s Chelated Magnesium, which is magnesium bound to glycine, and comes in 100 mg tablet form, making it easy to titrate a dose to your specific requirements.

So rock on Sarah, and rest well.

True, but make sure to separate them. Calcium will interfere with the body's absorption of magnesium, and vice versa.
Some decent information tied up in some obvious alt-health wellness blog claims.
 

BadBadBear

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For me, glycinate form kept me awake. Its atypical but for some people its excitatory (related to cells dumping chloride inappropriately). So if you have an odd reaction to glycinate form, you'll know you are not going nuts. I ended up doing ok with malate form.

i think this basic thing of reacting backwards to all sorts of substances is at the heart of my problems. How can my body possibly rest when calming substances become excitatory? Ok, I am going nuts. 😬
 
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How can my body possibly rest when calming substances become excitatory? Ok, I am going nuts. 😬
@BadBadBear
You're definitely not going nuts. I've had the same paradoxical reactions to numerous herbs and supplements and it drove me nuts too, til I did a little digging and found out that a lot of us seem to react in reverse to many of the supports we either used to benefit from, or are trying for the first time o_Oo_O :confused:.

Soooo effing frustrating :bang-head::bang-head::bang-head:.
 
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@Hazeleyes99
Not sure what you mean here. Clarify for the mentally fogged??? :xeyes::xeyes:
The claims about citrate in supplements being problematic, combined with your reccomendation of another form, glycine, which logically to me, would have similar risk from manufacturing. I meant I tend to read claims like that in unreferenced manner on wellness sites. I was being a little bit of dick in way I characterized it. My apologies.
 
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Alvin2

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Glycine was found in several studies to increase amounts of deep sleep (3000mg?). I used to take it when i was very PEMed, helped things slightly. Not enough to keep using it.
 
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Weird that mag glycinate would keep someone awake as glycine is both GABAergic and anti-excitotoxic
@biohacked
Actually, not really anti-excitotoxic in it's separated form, often exactly the opposite. Any amino acid as a stand-alone has to have been hydrolyzed, per force, and as a free-standing amino, is frequently likely to be excitotoxic no matter how effective it might be when bound naturally to other aminos. It just depends on individual sensitivity.


Why is the system telling me to enter a valid message?

Everyone's a critic. Hummmpphphphhphhhh.
 
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I was being a little bit of dick in way I characterized it. My apologies.
@Hazeleyes99
Thank you both for the clarification and the apology, much appreciated.

Nothing I wrote in my post came from one of those tedious " ......here's your problem, let us sell you the soluton ...." blog sites. It all came from reliable research and my own personal experience with mag glycinate, etc.

And you're right: under most circumstances, the act of severing an amino, like glycine, from its bnds to other aminos should produce a reaction. For some reason, mag glycinate doesn't do that in my system, altho free-standing, hydrolized glycine does.

Go know :xeyes::xeyes::xeyes:.
 
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Glycine was found in several studies to increase amounts of deep sleep (3000mg?)
@Alvin2
Again, as I stated above, it depends alnost entirely on your level of sensitivity. I took gelatin for years with no reaction, then suddenly BOOOOM ..... excitotoxic in the worst possible way. This response came hand-in-hand with the onset of the worst of my ME.
 

Alvin2

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@Alvin2
Again, as I stated above, it depends alnost entirely on your level of sensitivity. I took gelatin for years with no reaction, then suddenly BOOOOM ..... excitotoxic in the worst possible way. This response came hand-in-hand with the onset of the worst of my ME.
For sure, i can only state my experience and what the literature says
 

Learner1

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I doubt that glycine consumption will significantly increase glutathione production. The rate-limiting ingredient for glutathione production is cysteine, not glycine. This is why people take n-acetyl-cysteine to boost glutathione. Many people do have significant start-up effects when they boost glutathione production.
The rate-limiting ingredient for MANY people is cysteine (generally taken as NAC). Not ALL. For some of us, glycine is needed, as much, or more than cysteine. People are told to take NAC, NAC, NAC, when they need glycine. Chris Masterjohn discusses why glycine is needed here:

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/podcast/2017/08/12/living-with-mthfr/

For me, it takes about 4.5g of glycine to have enough, which I can't get adequately in a mag glycinate supplement. So, I take mag glycinate (or mag malate when malate is lagging) in the morning, and glycine in the evening which helps sleep.
Since you’re taking such large daily doses of magnesium, you should consider taking daily calcium as well. The body needs to maintain a stable ratio of calcium to magnesium for proper nerve function.
400mg is not a large dose of magnesium. Its the DV, a value that was decided upon to avoid flagrant deficiency, not for optimal function.

If you are using a lot of it for methylation or the other 300 areas it's needed in the body's biochemistry it's needed, you may have an increased demand for magnesium (as many of us do).

So, if you are using magnesium faster than calcium, taking calcium will throw off that ratio @Pyrrhus and your body may decide to start storing it in your heart, especially if you are not also taking adequate amounts of K2-MK7 and other cofactors.

Better to test minerals and see which you are replete in and which you're deficient in, as too much or too little of any mineral is problematic And for electrolytes, the wrong amount can seriously affect heart functiom, so best to know.

As for glycine and cysteine, studies have shown that ME/CFS patients tend to burn amino acids for fuel, so doing an amino acid panel might be very worthwhileto see what you actually need. In addition to lack of glycine, I have had symptoms from lack of asparagine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, and tyrosine that improved with supplementation.

"The Amino Revolution" by Robert Erdmann is old, but a great read on the subject - I found many of the combos of aminos people are short in match the health problems he relates to those combos. Made a believer out of me...
 

Alvin2

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@Alvin2
I'm inclined to trust your experience more than anything the 'literature' says ....
I typically look things up before trying them. This one is not high risk but if you react badly then its worth avoiding. I also react to things others don't so if its causing issues i am all for saying it should be avoided. Hopefully one tries the smallest possible bottle so they are not out much money if they can't take something.