Folic acid and folinic acid can block metafolin inducing deficiency called "ddtox"

[drex13]

Freddd,

All the Thorne (or most anyway) contain Folinic Acid (calcium folate), usually a 50/50 mix of Folinic and Methylfolate from what I can tell.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Sorry for the confusion Freddd. Rusty mentioned folic in his first post so I suggested Thorne which is Folic acid free. Like Drex says they have (usually 100mcg) folinic, plus the same of methylfolate.

HI Anne,

Which specific one is that. I looked at 4 or 5 of them and didn't find one free of folic and folinic acids.

 

[Freddd]

Sorry for the confusion Freddd. Rusty mentioned folic in his first post so I suggested Thorne which is Folic acid free. Like Drex says they have (usually 100mcg) folinic, plus the same of methylfolate.

Hi Anne, If anything the folinic acid is worse in that it's effects last longer than folic acid, at least for me and some others.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Hi Anne, If anything the folinic acid is worse in that it's effects last longer than folic acid, at least for me and some others.

Hi Freddd,

Yeah I think I really need to sort out about me and folinic acid. I need to get up to speed on how to identify most clearly if I have an issue with it.

The thing is I developed ME/CFS immediately after treatment with a folate inhibiting drug - pyrimethamine, and folinic acid to "counteract" the effects of the drug. I took the medications for several months, with a short break.

I've just put in a request to go in and view my hospital files. I'm curious to know how their monitoring of me looked. I was hooked to an IV for weeks and I was really closely monitored. I'm pretty sure I had liver enzymes looked at for folate action every few days. I was only a child at the time and I wasn't very clear on potential side effects.

So, is it best Freddd to watch for a stronger response to the same amount of methyl B12 upon removal of folic and folinic acids?
Or is it best to establish a baseline (over several weeks?) with 5-mthf only, then challenge test each of the others and watch for a lowered response to methyl B12?

I apologise if you've already answered this elsewhere. If you point me to the massive B12 thread that's OK. I'll read up!

Many thanks,
Anne.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd,

Yeah I think I really need to sort out about me and folinic acid. I need to get up to speed on how to identify most clearly if I have an issue with it.

The thing is I developed ME/CFS immediately after treatment with a folate inhibiting drug - pyrimethamine, and folinic acid to "counteract" the effects of the drug. I took the medications for several months, with a short break.

I've just put in a request to go in and view my hospital files. I'm curious to know how their monitoring of me looked. I was hooked to an IV for weeks and I was really closely monitored. I'm pretty sure I had liver enzymes looked at for folate action every few days. I was only a child at the time and I wasn't very clear on potential side effects.

So, is it best Freddd to watch for a stronger response to the same amount of methyl B12 upon removal of folic and folinic acids?
Or is it best to establish a baseline (over several weeks?) with 5-mthf only, then challenge test each of the others and watch for a lowered response to methyl B12?

I apologise if you've already answered this elsewhere. If you point me to the massive B12 thread that's OK. I'll read up!

Many thanks,
Anne.

Hi Anne,

The only likely way to end the induced deficiency is to take the Metafolin. Results are usually very quick. You may want to take one 800mcg tablet each 4 hours or so until things start changing. I would expect you to start noticing the difference within 4 -24 hours. The more severe the deficiency the more dramatic the correction. If nothing immediately changes then there probably isn't severe issue with it. Then you can do alternating 2 week trials which should be very telling even if the effects are subtle. There is no reason to ever go back to folic/folinic acid in any case except to know for sure. You will likely know within a few days of starting the Metafolin.

 

[Freddd]

Today I have completed my test of Megafoods Balanced B-complex. This is a food extract b-complex. The folate is extracted from broccoli. However, I can find no statement of what form of folate is in broccoli. The test of this b-complex ended after 4 days because just by adding it in place of my b-complex without folate my angular cheilitis came back and the IBS was just starting. It's no wonder I had the cheilitis and other symptoms all my life if I can't sufficiently utilize folate from foods. YIKES. For those who have this paradoxical folate deficiency a food extract based b-complex might not work.

 

[L'engle]

Today I have completed my test of Megafoods Balanced B-complex. This is a food extract b-complex. The folate is extracted from broccoli. However, I can find no statement of what form of folate is in broccoli. The test of this b-complex ended after 4 days because just by adding it in place of my b-complex without folate my angular cheilitis came back and the IBS was just starting. It's no wonder I had the cheilitis and other symptoms all my life if I can't sufficiently utilize folate from foods. YIKES. For those who have this paradoxical folate deficiency a food extract based b-complex might not work.

I lost my taste for broccoli around the time my illness got worse. Cannot stand the stuff anymore. With naturopathic "VEGA" testing it was put on a list of things I shouldn't eat.

 

[Shellbell]

Fred, do you have any problems eating broccoli, either raw or steamed?

 

[Freddd]

Fred, do you have any problems eating broccoli, either raw or steamed?

Hi Shelly,

I have always disliked broccoli. I can tolerate a small amount of it lightly cooked in a stir fry. The amount I could eat, would only have a tiny fraction of that 400mcg in the B-complex.

Four hours after I would have taken it earlier today the tingling and so on in my feet has intensified again after falling off when I started it. The tingling is a response to the large injections of mb12 and the Metafolin as the nerves heal slowly.

 

[maddietod]

I just want to say that it's very helpful to have these threads that are untangled from the masses of B12-related information. I've been wading through it for 3 weeks, and I still don't understand very much, but threads like this one let me chew on just one piece instead of the usual megabite. Next stop is an art store for a huge piece of paper to stick on my wall. That's where every piece of information I understand is going.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Hi Freddd,

Thanks for that suggestion.

I've taken higher doses (800mcg every 4 hours) of Folapro -5mthf for the past 4 days, and I haven't had any Folinic acid for 6 days. I'm not sure about a dramatic correction but I have noticed some changes - increased muscle stiffness and soreness, mostly in my legs. And I've experienced increased detox symptoms.
I know you're going to ask about that so I'll explain what I interpret as detox (but I'd appreciate an alternate view if you think I'm missing something)...
OK, two things: I've had increased headaches of the type that can be relieved fairly quickly by taking a handful of activated charcoal, and I've been told that I smell like a chemical plant. Nice This isn't usual. It feels like an increase in the metabolism of stored toxins.

In stopping Folinic I've had to take Folic Acid in a B complex. I'm taking this once a day. I realise this might compromise my attempt to correct a deficiency, and when I get a suitable B complex I'll try the experiement again.
The only other adjustment I've made is to increase potassium intake. It felt like the right thing to do.

I thought I'd drop back to 800mcg 5-mthf per day. Then when I've been a full 2 weeks without Folinic acid I'll add some in and watch for any change.

Thanks again Freddd,

Anne.

Hi Anne,

The only likely way to end the induced deficiency is to take the Metafolin. Results are usually very quick. You may want to take one 800mcg tablet each 4 hours or so until things start changing. I would expect you to start noticing the difference within 4 -24 hours. The more severe the deficiency the more dramatic the correction. If nothing immediately changes then there probably isn't severe issue with it. Then you can do alternating 2 week trials which should be very telling even if the effects are subtle. There is no reason to ever go back to folic/folinic acid in any case except to know for sure. You will likely know within a few days of starting the Metafolin.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd,

Thanks for that suggestion.

I've taken higher doses (800mcg every 4 hours) of Folapro -5mthf for the past 4 days, and I haven't had any Folinic acid for 6 days. I'm not sure about a dramatic correction but I have noticed some changes - increased muscle stiffness and soreness, mostly in my legs. And I've experienced increased detox symptoms.
I know you're going to ask about that so I'll explain what I interpret as detox (but I'd appreciate an alternate view if you think I'm missing something)...
OK, two things: I've had increased headaches of the type that can be relieved fairly quickly by taking a handful of activated charcoal, and I've been told that I smell like a chemical plant. Nice This isn't usual. It feels like an increase in the metabolism of stored toxins.

In stopping Folinic I've had to take Folic Acid in a B complex. I'm taking this once a day. I realise this might compromise my attempt to correct a deficiency, and when I get a suitable B complex I'll try the experiement again.
The only other adjustment I've made is to increase potassium intake. It felt like the right thing to do.

I thought I'd drop back to 800mcg 5-mthf per day. Then when I've been a full 2 weeks without Folinic acid I'll add some in and watch for any change.

Thanks again Freddd,

Anne.

Hi Anne,

The increased muscle pain could very well be caused by the folic acid causing the paradoxical folate deficiency. Please go to a drug store and buy a b-complex without an folate in it. You need to try that experiment. Nature Made makes one, "B-Complex" without any modifying words. It's not great but it lacks cyanocbl and folic acid and would do for the trial.

 

[anne_likes_red]

I can't find one without folate here (NZ) Freddd, we just don't have a lot of choices - I checked everywhere last weekend.

But I just found this B Complex on iherb: MethylB12, and Folic Acid as 5-mthf.. (Surely thats mis-labelling and they mean Folate as 5-mthf.) It looks folic acid and folinic acid free to me.

http://www.iherb.com/Advanced-Orthomolecular-Research-Advanced-B-Complex-90-Veggie-Caps/33062?at=0

Otherwise I'm happy to look at ordering all the Bs separately.

Anne.

 

[Freddd]

I can't find one without folate here (NZ) Freddd, we just don't have a lot of choices - I checked everywhere last weekend.

But I just found this one on iherb: MethylB12, and Folic Acid as 5-mthf.. (Surely thats mis labelling they mean Folate as 5-mthf.)

http://www.iherb.com/Advanced-Orthomolecular-Research-Advanced-B-Complex-90-Veggie-Caps/33062?at=0

Otherwise I'm happy to look at ordering all the B's separately.

Anne.

Hi Anne,

It looks pretty good. I notice it's a new product in the last month or so. Give it a whirl. I think it will make a difference for you.

I suppose I hadn't thought much about living in an isolated country with only 4+ million population. That would limit the number of brands and products quite a bit just for lack of a sizable market to support them all.

 

[L'engle]

B vitamins without folic acid:

Putting together the separates for a B-vitamin seems to cost around $25 for a supply that is possibly equivalent to the 90 capsules of AOR's b-complex here. So including all the trouble of finding the active forms/good brands and not being sure of overall quality in separates, I think getting the AOR b- complex is pretty good cost wise. If I'd seen this before I might not have bothered to buy the separates and crunch them up into smaller amounts to compile together, so thanks for the info, Anne.

Also this site has bulk vitamin powder, but I have never bought anything from them:

http://purebulk.com/index/products/view

 

[maddietod]

But I just found this one on iherb: MethylB12, and Folic Acid as 5-mthf..

I'm afraid of forgetting where I saw this, when I need this information later, so.... If I end up needing to add the active forms of b12 to Rich's protocol, how much additional methyl b12 would I need? Since obviously this isn't subligual.

 

[aquariusgirl]

Ref: purebulk.com... pls be aware that most of their stuff is from china.

The thing is I suspect that much of the stuff we are buying in capsules is also from china....at least the raw product..ingredients.

Tough call.

 

[aquariusgirl]

anne... the detox reaction you describe is very familiar to me.. that's what I experience, I feel muggy, kinda nauseous, aching knee joints, calves. I wonder what is going on with the leg sensations? oxidative stress?

Question: did you get overwhelming, runaway detox with the 800mcg x4 a day...or did you feel ok on it, or good, or what?

I can see how it might make yr brain hum....given that L5 methyl is apparently the only form of folate to cross the BBB , but I'd be a little scared of too many toxins being mobilised into the bloodstream...

Interested to hear how you got on.

 

[Freddd]

But I just found this one on iherb: MethylB12, and Folic Acid as 5-mthf..

I'm afraid of forgetting where I saw this, when I need this information later, so.... If I end up needing to add the active forms of b12 to Rich's protocol, how much additional methyl b12 would I need? Since obviously this isn't subligual.

Hi Maddie,

Folic Acid as 5-mthf..

I have found this in multiple places on iherb, on Amazon and other retailers. This is a MISTAKE on the part of the person who is doing the site. A similar thing can happen with the various forms of b12 as well.. For instance, the Source Natural Dibencozide has 10mg of adb12 however, as the official b12 is cyanocbl, and it is lighter than adb12 by about 14%, the "b12" content is listed as 8.6mg. In many peoples minds folate equals "folic acid" and is completely synonymous with "folic acid". So instead of saying "Folate as 5-mthf..." they say "folic acid as 5-mthf...". I would suggest 1mg of methyb12 sublingual, either Jarrow or Enzymatic Therapy, daily and one 10mg Source Natural Dibencozide one a week. They would make a very substantial difference.

One thing to remember about folic acid. I found that I could have the deficiency with symptoms from 400mcg of folic acid twice a day along with 8800mcg of Metafolin. So a little bit of folic acid can completely block much larger amounts of Metafolin. In some of the reading I have been doing trying to figure out what is going on it is suggested that folic acid or some part way converted derivative can accumulate in the body.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Freddd,

We have many, many millions more livestock - and you wouldn't believe the number of highly studied, cutting edge supplements there are available here for those guys!
Yes the lack of choice on the shelves here is because there just isn't the population to support it.
But I can shop at iherb just like anyone else - what a blessing that is! The freight charges add a bit but most of the products seem like good value to me.

That B complex was a lucky find, I was looking for different forms of B1 and that complex came up in a search.
It's good to see one that fits the bill become available at iherb. I've ordered a couple of months worth and I'll see how that goes.

In the few days after I dropped folinic/added folic, and before I started the high dose Folapro, I got quite unwell - I stopped sleeping, anxiety increased etc. My husband is convinced folic acid is more of a problem for me than folinic. Either that or according to him there's some complex masking game going on.

I'm looking forward to giving the 5-mthf a fair go!

anne... the detox reaction you describe is very familiar to me.. that's what I experience, I feel muggy, kinda nauseous, aching knee joints, calves. I wonder what is going on with the leg sensations? oxidative stress?

Question: did you get overwhelming, runaway detox with the 800mcg x4 a day...or did you feel ok on it, or good, or what?

I can see how it might make yr brain hum....given that L5 methyl is apparently the only form of folate to cross the BBB , but I'd be a little scared of too many toxins being mobilised into the bloodstream...

Interested to hear how you got on.

Hi aq,

I didn't get any brain hum from upping the 5-mthf, but I do each time I up my MethylB12.
Perhaps the 400mcg per day folic acid I was taking was a significant limiting factor with the 5-mthf? I didn't want to risk taking those doses of single B's without a good complex in place. Now that I've found a suitable B complex, I'll try the high doses again and report back.
So anyway, I didn't feel better on the high dose 5-mthf. And only worse in that my headache frequency increased a bit, and I developed the new muscle stiffness/burning feelings. No nausea here thank goodness. I'm supporting sulfation too - when I started that I did get a lot of nausea, but that's 100% settled.

The leg muscles - yes it's calves mostly. It's like I've just walked up and down the world's steepest street without recovering from having done it the previous day!
I upped potassium but I wonder if I need to take more still. I have a persistant twitchy lower eyelid and I thought this was related to magnesium, but I just discovered that plenty of web sources mention potassium as well.

aq you asked in another post what is too much detox. I'd personally get worried if I developed chronic kidney pain (even a persistantdull ache), or any pains in the liver.
I had a low grade kidney ache for months when I did chelation after amalgam removal. I was closely monitored by a doctor then so it was OK, but if I noticed that happen again I think I'd want to slow down.

HTH, Anne.



OK, I keep meaning to make a note of my improvements somewhere. There are some things that have changed over the past two months.

*My stamina has improved. It feels like I have a new source of energy. It feels like it's at a cellular level - not just a quick boost from something I'm taking. Its subtle but it's there, and it's there all day.
*I haven't had any sinus headaches or infections, or migraines since I started B12&Friends. Thats's the longest I've been free of those particular symptoms in more than a decade.
*I have not had my typical Autumn Crash. First time in years. I'd usually be a month into a 2 - 3 month crash by now.
*Foggy brain is sometimes worse but occasionally better. The better part is excellent
*I'm dreaming much more, or at least remembering lots of details. I think that qualifies as an improvement.