Folic acid and folinic acid can block metafolin inducing deficiency called "ddtox"

[Freddd]

Your plan has always included methylfolate, hasn't it? Or do you mean your new approach to taking it?

Hi JPV,

It hasn't. I've been at this for 8 years. Metafolin has only been available OTC for about 3-4 years and in a very limited fashion for 2 of those years. Source Naturals put out one batch and I bought a couple of dozen bottles in closeout. Than no more until it became available again about 2 years ago from other brands. So what has changed is because it is now possible to make a meaningful assessment of folic/folinic acid as compared to Metafolin and even work out a strategy. People who equate the paradoxical folate deficiency triggered by folic/folinic acid with the genuine effectiveness of Metafolin are making a mistake which becomes apparent if they continue the Metafolin.

Also, I have been a systems analyst and software designer in health care since 1982. I designed all sorts of data input forms and questionnaires, and work-flow forms. I think that a single poll incorporating both protocols/variations and time stamped, so people can put in a change in results and watch how it changes over the months or years would be more useful for data collection that yields meaningful results.

There are questions that can elicit meaningful responses and those that elicit responses that are less meaningful because they are based on false assumptions and/or have ambiguous answers. A question like "Do you have 'detox'?" is much less than meaningful and even misleading. It's like the traditional "When did you start beating your wife?"


The things I have seen labeled "detox" that are not actually detox.

1. Glutathione "detox" reaction - induced more severe methylfolate and b12 deficiencies.
2. NAC "detox reaction" - induced more severe methylfolate and b12 deficiencies.
3. "detox" when folic acid is being taken - paradoxical folate deficiency, induced more severe methylfolate and b12 deficiencies.
4. "detox" when folinic acid is being taken - paradoxical folate deficiency, induced more severe methylfolate and b12 deficiencies.
5. "detox" with mb12/mfolate when certain symptoms occur such as muscle spasms, heart palpitations and mood changes which often are falling potassium levels, hypokalemia. This is genuinely potentially dangerous and needs to be recognized, not called by the wrong name and treated incorrectly.

When people are taking mb12/adb12/Metafolin and report "detox" for exactly the same reactions that many people have routinely reported as "startup" response leads to "danger" response rather than a "this will pass soon with healing" response. While some of the perhaps hundreds of startup responses might actually be because of some kind of "detox" the bulk of them are not. The difficult thing about all this is that each individual symptom is non-specific yet selected patterns are quite specific.

And as mb12/mfolate are likely to induce multiple deficiencies if everything needed isn't taken I suspect much more is from these induced deficiencies than anything else. So like on the old TV program To Tell The Truth, "Will the real DETOX symptoms please stand up?" Let's see if we can identify them and eliminate all other possibilities. I think it likely that they do exist but finding them amongst all the misnomers is difficult. With all the male bovine manure around there is bound to be some bull somewhere.

This "bad questions get bad answers" or in a more modern statement of it "Garbage In Garbage Out" (GIGO) plagues the research done in nutrition and medicine and probably much else.

 

[Freddd]

Thank you for your help, it sounds like the best path is to follow the methylation formula as is and take a break from the leucovorin. Do you know of any others with mitochondrial dysfunction that have been helped trying this?

Hi Todd,

I was totally crashed for almost 17 years. I had zero energy. My muscles did a lactic acid burn 24/7 for that entire time. One hour after starting mb12 my energy was increased tremendously. The lactic acid burn was gone in ten days. 9 months later I took adb12. Another huge increase in energy. At that point I started being able to grow muscle again. A few months later I started l-carnitine fumarate. This was the biggest increase in energy yet and the startup lasted more than 6 months as I titrated up. It ended in days when I reached 1000mg and saturated the system. My aerobic capability went from 17 minutes struggling on the Nordic track to 34 minutes easily, literally overnight. All the shouting was over with by the time I was able to try Metafolin so I have no idea if it has any mitochondrial effect at all.

I used to take Reglan quite regularly. I almost never need to any more. I have no more surges of acid and undigested food up my throat in the middle of the night. No more Compazine in almost 8 years. Mb12 got rid of most of my sleep disorders and Metafolin restored dreaming sleep. No more POTS. Everything is 100% changed, except the subacute combined degeneration and that is 90% corrected.

 

[Freddd]

Given that B-right has Folic acid in it, is there any consensus on a viable alternative? I've seen a few mentioned here and there on the forum, has any one tried and tested a good one?

Kind regards
SJB944

Hi SJB,

I bought a very miscellaneous b-complex without folic acid or cyanocbl at the pharmacy and am filling in with separates. For now I'm going to order the Douglas Labs B-complex with Metafolin and give that a try. It will still need some separates added in to equal the B-right.

I do want to say that eliminating folic acid 100% is making a noticable difference across the board. I'm feeling better generally, improved mood, the cheilitis is healing very rapidly at all times of day without the interruption of two doses of folic acid. The IBS that turns on and off with the folate deficiency is gone now, hopefully forever. While I could tip the balance away from deficiency with timing, clearly it affected things none the less. My neurology is healing better now than it has in a long time, and I have only been off of folic acid since last Friday.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Todd,

I was totally crashed for almost 17 years. I had zero energy. My muscles did a lactic acid burn 24/7 for that entire time. One hour after starting mb12 my energy was increased tremendously. The lactic acid burn was gone in ten days. 9 months later I took adb12. Another huge increase in energy. At that point I started being able to grow muscle again. A few months later I started l-carnitine fumarate. This was the biggest increase in energy yet and the startup lasted more than 6 months as I titrated up. It ended in days when I reached 1000mg and saturated the system. My aerobic capability went from 17 minutes struggling on the Nordic track to 34 minutes easily, literally overnight. All the shouting was over with by the time I was able to try Metafolin so I have no idea if it has any mitochondrial effect at all.

I used to take Reglan quite regularly. I almost never need to any more. I have no more surges of acid and undigested food up my throat in the middle of the night. No more Compazine in almost 8 years. Mb12 got rid of most of my sleep disorders and Metafolin restored dreaming sleep. No more POTS. Everything is 100% changed, except the subacute combined degeneration and that is 90% corrected.

Hi Todd,

by the time I was able to try Metafolin so I have no idea if it has any mitochondrial effect at all.

I have to modify my answer somewhat. First, when I had the glutathione folate crash I did have a drop of energy and increasing fatigue. At the time I attributed that to an also developing adb12 deficiency as evidenced by adb12 startup responses six months later after a large Metafolin dose. In doing some reading there is also a form of folate involved in the ATP generation that I came across in reading recently.

 

[leela]

regarding glutathione

I am still confused on this question re: glutathione.

Personally it is the one thing that makes me feel waaay better very quickly when I slather it on (I use the TD kind) during a toxic or crashy period.

On the other hand, I have really not been supplementing at all in the B or folate department for some time. Blood panel shows glutathione is low (oxidized high) so no surprise that I feel better with it--right? Or not?

Since my experience tells me using GSH is helpful I will trust that--I guess my question here is (since I am having trouble understanding the complexities of Freddd's posts) need I expect or look for this to change once I start the protocol? Do I gather that once the methylation thing gets going glutathione somehow becomes bad, at least with Freddd's polymorphism?

Thanks for any clarification.

 

[Freddd]

I am still confused on this question re: glutathione.

Personally it is the one thing that makes me feel waaay better very quickly when I slather it on (I use the TD kind) during a toxic or crashy period.

On the other hand, I have really not been supplementing at all in the B or folate department for some time. Blood panel shows glutathione is low (oxidized high) so no surprise that I feel better with it--right? Or not?

Since my experience tells me using GSH is helpful I will trust that--I guess my question here is (since I am having trouble understanding the complexities of Freddd's posts) need I expect or look for this to change once I start the protocol? Do I gather that once the methylation thing gets going glutathione somehow becomes bad, at least with Freddd's polymorphism?

Thanks for any clarification.

Hi Leela,
First taking the mb12 and Metafolin get the methylation going almost immediately generating glutathione. If a person has a whole lot of symptoms that include folate deficiency symptoms and b12 deficiency symptoms (basically 100% of FMS/CFS symptoms) then starting glutathione makes no difference in that respect because those things don't change. Instead one might be aware of whatever the benefits of glutathione might be as those are noticed as benefits. So to be aware of the folate deficiency happening suddenly it must first have been corrected. Basically, if I hadn't taken Metafolin in the first place I would not have been in any position to be aware of the RETURN of folate deficiency symptoms because they would have never left.

In the trial some of us did elsewhere, everybody had been already had a strong response to the mb12 and/or Metafolin. 100% of those people noticed the sudden return of folate deficiency symptoms. They were not new or different symptoms. They were the same old symptoms that they had been suffering from for years that were now suddenly back. So it was clearly not because of polymorphisms. The people who didn't have the return of these symptoms had never had them go away in the first place so no change occurred when they took the glutathione except for what ever perceptible benefit they might have felt.

So if you are taking the glutathione and take mb12 and Metafolin, not much will happen because the glutathione blocks them. If you discontinue the glutathione and then start mb12 and Metafolin you will likely have some fairly strong startup responses. After those fade away and you are feeling lots better, then if you take glutathione and it causes the folate deficiency and then the b12 deficiencies that follow, it will be perceived as a return of your former symptoms. It's not that glutathione becomes bad. Its just that if you have the deficiency symptoms when you start glutathione nothing changes and you still have them and then you only can notice what changes. If you start up the methylation and your body makes the glutathione then it is not needed and the benefit has already happened so all there is to notice is the deficiency symptoms coming back.

An analogy. If you dive into an 80 degree swimming pool on a 110 degree day it seems cold. If you dive into an 80 degree pool on a 50 degree day the pool seems warm. The pool hasn't changed, just the basis of comparison. The first 60 degree spring day is so warm. The 60 degree summer day after a run of 100 degree days is cold.

Hopefully that is now clear.

 

[Freddd]

I just want to add a certain caution to all this. Today, 10 days after stopping folic acid I started having the spasms I have with low potassium and needed to take an extra dose of potassium. This has happened to me multiple times after exiting b12 and/or folate deficiency. I will up my potassium for a while.

 

[soulfeast]

Body Bio B complex has no folic or folinic. Has a wider range of B than the douglas product.

http://www.bodybio.com/storecategory89.aspx

Questions:

(1) Dont we use folinic for certain bio functions?

(2) are there lists of FA deficiency symptoms and b12 deficiency symptoms?

(3) what about Neubrander using mb12 slow release and folinic only? What if you use only folinic?



Glutathione does not cause a "detox" or a detox for me at the doses I take. It helps to keep my gait from falling out on me and keeps nerves from going wild, excitory reaction of some sort. But I also take folinic and hb12 in addition to metafolin and mb12.

 

[soulfeast]

Pure Encapsulations also has a metafolin b complex with no FA or folinic.

http://www.purecaps.com/PDF/pi/B_Complex_Plus.pdf

 

[Freddd]

After 3 weeks without folic acid, I have tried a single dose of Country Life adb12, 9mg including 600mcg of folic acid. I could feel the adb12. I had preloaded with Metafolin, 2400mcg 60 minutes before the adb12 and my usual schedule of Metafolin afterwards. Now, a couple of days later I can clearly say that there was not the slightest sign of any problem with folic acid. A single dose of folic acid doesn't appear to last long enough to do any apparent damage, at least as far as paradoxical folate deficiency, when preloading and followup doses of Metafolin are employed.

 

[RustyJ]

With regard to genetic polymorphisms and folic acid issues, are there other signposts which could potentially determine which of the two camps patients may fall?

For example, I have sulphite, glutamate and gluten intolerances, as well as low glutathione and low Vit D. Prior to sudden decline in health, I have two years of severe hayfever (with fatigue). I also have some success treating bloating and reflux (which of course the three intolerances exacerbate) with a H2 blocker.

I could be wrong, but I thought I read somewhere that sulphite, glutamate reactions and low glutathione are linked, perhaps cascading from a single cause. Could this have anything to do with folic acid and the glutamate molecules in the gut lining (the research Rich pulled up earlier in the thread)?

I realise my questions may be naive - for that I apologize - but I am struggling to get up to speed on the methylation debate and am thinking of diving in. I would also add that I tried glutathione sublingually without any impact.

I take it that noone has an alternative b-complex that is folic acid free from iherb?

 

[leela]

Rusty,
I am taking a food-based B complex available from iherb called Innate B complex. From what I gather folic acid in this form is not potentially detrimental like the synthetic form. Be advised, however, that the vast percentage of the ingredient list is a yeast, which may not be good for some.

I notice that when taking the drops, I almost immediately start to smell really vitaminy. Anyone else get this? (I am taking a bunch of other stuff, so it could be the combo.) I also get really sleepy, but this is nice for the whole sleep issue. A welcome side effect, in fact.

 

[RustyJ]

Be advised, however, that the vast percentage of the ingredient list is a yeast, which may not be good for some.

Thanks leela. Unfortunately, (sigh) I am also intolerant to yeast (forgot to mention in post above). Which does bring me to another point. My intolerances seem to be getting worse. Trying to avoid sulphites and glutamates is a nightmare.

 

[RustyJ]

Hi leela.

I checked out Innate http://www.iherb.com/Innate-Response-Formulas-B-Complex-180-Tablets/30877?at=0
Could you tell me where it says yeast? Or have they just changed the formula. Bit of brain fog here, but are you sure the debate about folic acid did not apply to folate as well? And is food B-complex better than synthetic (I guess I would assume so, but not read any comparisons)? So many questions, sorry.

 

[leela]

Hey Rusty,

Super tired and drooly right now (past my bedtime!) so the quick answer is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_cerevisiae

the current thought is folic acid ought to be avoided (though that found in food is fine) and that folinic acid is good for some, as long as you take it away from the methylfolate.

I chose the innate product for a variety of reasons, but wonder now if the yeast is such a great idea.

off to sleep now,
zzzz
~leela

 

[anne_likes_red]

Rusty,
I'm using a Thorne B Complex (from iherb) which has no folic acid.
They have a number of different B comp formulas that are FA free

Anne.

 

[RustyJ]

Hi Anne. Thanks.

I saw the Thorne products. They still have folate, don't they? Although I notice some of their formulations have 200 mcg of folate only. I didn't see any with none. (I may be confused, but are not folic acid, folinic acid and folate are all being tarred with the same brush?)

I admit, I haven't read leela's wiki ref yet.

I am worried about taking Omega 3, because of mercury. Low glutathione almost guarantees high mercury levels. Is there a trustworthy low mercury Omega 3 at iHerb, perchance?

 

[anne_likes_red]

Hi again
Folate covers folic acid, folinic acid and 5 mthf.
You definitely want 5 mthf - active folate.
Thorne's folates (in my formula #5) are calcium folinate and 5 mthf.
Calcium folinate = folinic acid.
So no, Thorne isn't an option if you want to avoid folinic as well as folic.

Re fish oil, I'm using Green Pastures fermented cod liver oil. It's straight oil, not capsules.
If you search for "third party testing" in the fish oils available @ iherb you'll find products that have been independantly tested for pcbs and heavy metals.

HTH

 

[RustyJ]

On Tuesday, March 2, 2010, a lawsuit was filed in a San Francisco Superior Court, which alleged that several popular brands of fish oil supplements have illegally undisclosed and unnecessarily high levels of contamination from toxic PCB compounds. Widely regarded as cancer-causing agents, PCB’s were outlawed from manufacture in 1979. The lawsuit names eight manufacturers and retailers of fish and fish liver oils (as well as shark and shark liver oils) which tested positive for PCB contamination that exceeded the limits approved for human consumption under California’s Proposition 65. The initial defendants named are CVS Pharmacy, Inc.; General Nutrition Corp. (GNC); Now Health Group, Inc.; Omega Protein, Inc.; Pharmavite LLC (Nature Made brand); Rite Aid Corp.; Solgar, Inc.; and TwinLab Corp.

This is a bit of a worry. There are some big names here, and I would assume the same probably holds for mercury, since it is probably as ubiquitous.

 

[Freddd]

Rusty,
I'm using a Thorne B Complex (from iherb) which has no folic acid.
They have a number of different B comp formulas that are FA free

Anne.

HI Anne,

Which specific one is that. I looked at 4 or 5 of them and didn't find one free of folic and folinic acids.