Folic acid and folinic acid can block metafolin inducing deficiency called "ddtox"

[Freddd]

As i mentioned above Source naturals has adb pure sublinguals.

Hi Leaves,

The problem I have with Source Naturals is that their sublingual 5mg mb12 was the only total zero. I don't know if is is because of the tablet formula or the source mb12 crystal they use. Further I don't know if there are any differences from batch to batch of adb12 or if that is really all the same. Oops, The only adb12 I see is combined with mb12 and folic acid..

 

[leaves]

http://www.iherb.com/Dibencozide-Sublingual-120-Tablets/21571?utm_source=gb&utm_medium=f3

Seems pure to me and does have good reviews

 

[Freddd]

http://www.iherb.com/Dibencozide-Sublingual-120-Tablets/21571?utm_source=gb&utm_medium=f3

Seems pure to me and does have good reviews

I hadn't found that one, it's a completely different product. It looks worth trying. I'm going to order it and try it.

 

[dannybex]

Got my Metafolin and B-Right in the mail today. And have an unopened bottle of Jarrow B-12.

So I guess I need to know which to start first -- and I guess it's important to also include the magnesium chloride first as well, and a separate b-6?

Any input is more than welcome!

 

[leaves]

I'd not take the b right because of the folate. I would take b6 only in the p5p form. You can design your own multi (without b12/folate/b6) at https://www.customcapsule.com/
Just stick to the bright dosages for the other b's

 

[anne_likes_red]

Dan

OK Dan,
Here's how I'm doing it.

Vit C, Microsillica, MethylB12, Yasko Multi, Nucleotide complex, B-Right, molyb, B6 (100mg), mg chloride (oil) all before 8am.
+ Fish oil with breakfast.

Methylfolate (Folapro) after lunch. I have Actifolate (incl folic acid and folinate) on hold and may introduce it as a challenge test later. Sooner if I'm feeling brave?
For now I'm taking a cautious approach on folates.

HydroxyB12, Nucleotide complex, B-Right, B6(100mg),mg chloride(oil) after dinner.

I'm also trialing 2 caps activated charcoal before bed (10.30pm), as per Rich's ammonia excess suggestion, and I will soon start HCL Betaine with meals. I take extra potassium in a hydration drink.

Results so far: increased physical stamina, increased appetite and (what feels like) better digestion, increased dreaming - all about earthquakes but never mind - and, according to my husband, better cognitive function....though I haven't noticed that myself yet. Transient headaches, more swollen glands, periodic worsening of symptoms - but those things mostly pass within hours.

I hope you'll get some expert input too!
Best,
Anne.

(PS Can't wait to see how you do with this!)

Got my Metafolin and B-Right in the mail today. And have an unopened bottle of Jarrow B-12.

So I guess I need to know which to start first -- and I guess it's important to also include the magnesium chloride first as well, and a separate b-6?

Any input is more than welcome!

 

[kurt]

Kurt, I asked this in a separate post, but since it's close to what you're saying here, I'll get your input.
Having trouble taking cal./mag. (was taking it at lunch, got a very distinct late pm mental malaise). I realize that magnesium is crucial to the methylation cycle, but what about calcium? Can it be foregone? I'm hoping that I can tolerate magnesium alone.
Also, you said you've tried them all. I'm using "Natural Calm" pure magnesium powder by Natural Vitality. Could that brand be part of the problem? You mentioned magnesium chloride - you find it superior?

I used to take calcium powder at night to help with sleep, but at this point don't need so much. Yes, the magnesium alone seems fine for me, and most of the people I know using these protocols.

So is the consensus here that we should be avoiding both folic and folinic acid in using the methylation protocols ? If so doesn't that make some of the supplements used in both Freddd's and Rich's protocols unusable ? Or do we just have to time doses so that mehtylfolate is spaced out and taken away from anything containing folic acid or folinic acid ?

I am just spacing them out, take methylfolate in the morning with most of my other supplements, then B-right and aB12 (with some folic acid) in the afternoon.

Got my Metafolin and B-Right in the mail today. And have an unopened bottle of Jarrow B-12.
So I guess I need to know which to start first -- and I guess it's important to also include the magnesium chloride first as well, and a separate b-6?
Any input is more than welcome!

Mag Cl + B6, that is important that they be taken together, and I discovered that by their methylation connection, basic trial and error, but was good to see that other info you posted from the old autism studies that they work better together, thanks!

Personally I would start with a partial tablet of the Jarrow B12, it is good to get some B12 in you before starting other things. The B12 should increase stamina a little, make it easier to tolerate the experimentation required to get this protocol working.

 

[Freddd]

I used to take calcium powder at night to help with sleep, but at this point don't need so much. Yes, the magnesium alone seems fine for me, and most of the people I know using these protocols.



I am just spacing them out, take methylfolate in the morning with most of my other supplements, then B-right and aB12 (with some folic acid) in the afternoon.



Mag Cl + B6, that is important that they be taken together, and I discovered that by their methylation connection, basic trial and error, but was good to see that other info you posted from the old autism studies that they work better together, thanks!

Personally I would start with a partial tablet of the Jarrow B12, it is good to get some B12 in you before starting other things. The B12 should increase stamina a little, make it easier to tolerate the experimentation required to get this protocol working.

Hi Kurt,

I am just spacing them out, take methylfolate in the morning with most of my other supplements, then B-right and aB12 (with some folic acid) in the afternoon.


You make a good point. Schedule makes a difference in this, especially with folic acid. Folinic appears to last longer and do more damage per mcg.

I'll be specific about my schedule as well.

9:00 am approx - 2400mcg Metafolin, mb12 10mg SC injection, 3mg ET mb12
12:30 pm approx - Vitamins with food including 400mcg of folic acid in B-Right, 800mcg metafolin
4:30 pm, approx - 2400mcg Metafolin, mb12 10mg SC injection, 3mg ET mb12, 15mg Jarrow
8:00 pm, approx- Vitamins with food including 400mcg of folic acid in B-Right, 800mcg metafolin
11:30 pm, approx - 2400mcg Metafolin, mb12 10mg SC injection, 3mg ET mb12


On this schedule I don't have folate deficiency symptoms.

Once a week I'll add about 10 Country Life Dibencozide tablets at 11:30 am. I didn't get in trouble with that either. It was only after I took 3x3mg dibencozide 2-3 times a day with the other sublingual b12 that I went into folate deficiency with 8800mcg of Metafolin per day.

 

[dannybex]

Thanks Leaves, Anne, Kurt and Freddd!

Leaves -- that's cool re 'customcapsule.com'! I'll have to check that out further...

That's encouraging Anne, that you're improving a little...better than not at all, and certainly better than going the other direction. Thanks for posting your protocol/schedule. Do you know if you have a sulfation issue?

Kurt -- I'm assuming you're taking the MB-12 every day as well, in addition to the AD-b12? I think that's what I recall from your blog. And approx how much mag chloride? (I'll probably start low w/the b6 (or p5p) but perhaps again I got irritable, anxious because I wasn't taking enough mag w/it).

And Freddd -- thanks for your schedule too. One part I don't understand:

"Once a week I'll add about 10 Country Life Dibencozide tablets at 11:30 am. I didn't get in trouble with that either. It was only after I took 3x3mg dibencozide 2-3 times a day with the other sublingual b12 that I went into folate deficiency with 8800mcg of Metafolin per day. "

So...do you mean one day a week at 11:30am you take 10 Country Life ad-b12 -- the one with 400 mcg's folic acid? And what do you mean by 'the other sublingual b12'? Which type of b12 was that?

And finally, sorry about this, as I know you've probably posted this a zillion times (well, maybe 999,999,999 times), but why do you think it is that your body seems to guzzle so much b12/folate each day, and not be able to build any up in storage?

THANKS TO ALL.

 

[dannybex]

Here's what I was prescribed back in Oct-Nov-December 2010

I thought this might be interesting (!!??) to show what I was prescribed about six months ago, as it may -- may -- suggest that I was getting too much folic and folinic acid...and not enough...or any...methylb12.

1 Folacal (calcium folinate?)
1 Folapro (similar to Metafolin)
1/4 Actifolate (folic acid, 5-methyl-tetrahydrofolate and 5 formylhydrofolate?)
1 Thorne B-1 Complex (which has 100mcg calcium folinate + 100mcg 5-methyl-tetrahydrofolate)

1 drop HydroxyB12
1 Dibenzocide Active b12 w/Folic Acid

 

[Freddd]

Thanks Leaves, Anne, Kurt and Freddd!

Leaves -- that's cool re 'customcapsule.com'! I'll have to check that out further...

That's encouraging Anne, that you're improving a little...better than not at all, and certainly better than going the other direction. Thanks for posting your protocol/schedule. Do you know if you have a sulfation issue?

Kurt -- I'm assuming you're taking the MB-12 every day as well, in addition to the AD-b12? I think that's what I recall from your blog. And approx how much mag chloride? (I'll probably start low w/the b6 (or p5p) but perhaps again I got irritable, anxious because I wasn't taking enough mag w/it).

And Freddd -- thanks for your schedule too. One part I don't understand:

"Once a week I'll add about 10 Country Life Dibencozide tablets at 11:30 am. I didn't get in trouble with that either. It was only after I took 3x3mg dibencozide 2-3 times a day with the other sublingual b12 that I went into folate deficiency with 8800mcg of Metafolin per day. "

So...do you mean one day a week at 11:30am you take 10 Country Life ad-b12 -- the one with 400 mcg's folic acid? And what do you mean by 'the other sublingual b12'? Which type of b12 was that?

And finally, sorry about this, as I know you've probably posted this a zillion times (well, maybe 999,999,999 times), but why do you think it is that your body seems to guzzle so much b12/folate each day, and not be able to build any up in storage?

THANKS TO ALL.

Hi Dan,

So...do you mean one day a week at 11:30am you take 10 Country Life ad-b12 -- the one with 400 mcg's folic acid?

The one with 200mcg of folic acid per tablet, and maybe better absorbed as sublingual. However, as a single dose, it is subject to a short serum halflife, doesn't interfere with the first b12/Metafolin dose per day or the last. For the 4:30 ddose it might interfer, but the hours it does interfer are not long enough to shut down healing.

And what do you mean by 'the other sublingual b12'? Which type of b12 was that?

3mg of Enzymatic mb12 and 15mg of Jarrow mb12 as specified. They provide qualitative aspects that my injectable mb12 doesn't have and get carried along with the injection into the cns/csf by diffusion.

but why do you think it is that your body seems to guzzle so much b12/folate each day, and not be able to build any up in storage?

The serum halflife of methylfolate is about 3 hours. So if you take 1 tablet in 24 hours only 1/256 of what was absorbed remains after 24 hours. There is no floate storage in the body. The size of the folate amount might be becasue so much of it is being negated by the folic acid.

Contrary to popular mythology inspired by misunderstandings of cyanocbl and hydroxycbl research there is no "storage" of b12 either. There is adb12 in every mitochondria in the body, if you have enough. There is no surplus stored away for a rainy day. It is all working adb12. Mb12 is considered the main circulating form. When first injected (absorbed) the serum halflif is 20-50 minutes. At 12 hours the serum halflife has increased to about 4 hours. At the end of 24 hours about 99% has been excreted unchanged via the kidneys and at such low levels the kidneys stop excreting it. The liver gathers cobalamins, active and inactive, and disposes of them in the bile. If you consider the sewage treatment plant a water reservoir then the liver might be said to store b12. As it is all excreted in the bile and not channeled back into the body on any kind of homeostasis maintaining basis, it can hardly be called "storage". However, if you have a fully functioning entero hepatic b12 recirculation loop, much of the bile excreted b12 is reabsorbed, up to perhaps 10-20mcg per day. There is no evidence at all that the recirulation loop ever becomes fully functional once it has broken, just a lot of guesses and assumptions. In me and virtually everybody I have ever communicated with, mb12 symptoms start returning about 3 days after the last dose. There is no evidence of storage, just a lot of misinterpretation.

My body might very well maintain itself on 5mg sublingual b12 or less per day. However, to provoke CNS healing and get my feet back to some degree or another, requires the dose I'm taking. This was demonstrated in Japanese research. My dose is in line with the Japanese research amounts that were found effective only as long as they were taken, in short studies.

This is in line with the research findings that people with CFS/FMS and other neurological diseases have depressed CSF/CNS levels of cobalamins, sometimes mb12, sometimes adb12, sometimes both, because they appear to have trouble getting the b12 into the CSF and/or keeping it there.

 

[richvank]

Hi Rich,

so they must have active transporters in order to be absorbed in significant amounts when received in food or taken as supplements (unless very high dosages are used, so that the concentration in the gut rises above about 10 micromolar).

So, the sublingual use for 60 minutes to absorb adb12 also would absorb a lot more than usual folic acid? This might be a factor in the folic acid in the Country Life causing worse and quicker deficiency symptoms.

However, I note that you did not respond on the folinic acid. I had the same problem with the folinic acid once a day as 800mcg oral. It just took a month instead of a week. So what is a possible reason that folinic acid is causing the same result? There is no doubt that it is doing so for quite a few people. The question is why?. Your explanation of "why" to use folinic acid was convincing enough for me to try it. Now I want to know why it might be causing a paradoxical folate deficiency in some people. I haven't tried it in isolation yet because I need to get rid of all the other sources of folic acid first. Others here however have the same response to straight folinic acid and have for years, even getting worse over times as deficiencies do.

Hi, Freddd.

I would imagine that quite a lot of folic acid could be absorbed sublingually by diffusion if its concentration were maintained high in the saliva under the tongue for an hour, but I don't know how to estimate how much. I note that the Vinitsky protocol involves intentionally adding folic acid in liquid solution to tablets of hydroxocobalamin and taking them together sublingually. This protocol uses pretty high dosages of folic acid, and perhaps this is necessary to get enough in by diffusion, because of the negative charge on the molecule. Note that the Vinitsky protocol is claimed to help people with autism, and they have the same issue of the partial methylation cycle block as do people with ME/CFS, according to the results of our clinical study. This means that at least quite a few of these patients must be able to convert folic acid to L5-methyl THF well enough, if the dosage of folic acid is sufficiently high. I don't think this is the best way to go about it, but it does seem to work, at least for quite a few. I'm guessing that it wouldn't work in your case, though, based on what you have reported.

With regard to how folinic acid might have caused a problem for you and others, I think the explanation might be as follows:

It is known that the form of folate needed as a reactant for the reaction catalyzed by methionine synthase, the enzyme that appears to be partially blocked in ME/CFS, is L5-methyl tetrahydrofolate (sold as Metafolin, FolaPro, MethylMate B, and Deplin). I think that in order for folinic acid to cause a problem for a person with ME/CFS, it would have to be decreasing the amount of L5-methyl THF that gets to the cells. How could this happen? Well, as I noted, in the gut, the main folate transporter is the proton-coupled folate transporter, and it has nearly the same affinities for all three folate forms (folic acid, folinic acid and L5-methyl THF). So if folinic acid is taken orally at the same time as L5-methyl THF, it would compete with it for absorption, so that less of the latter would be absorbed than would be if it were taken alone. In order for folinic acid to be converted to L5-methyl THF, a pathway having three reactions must be traversed. If the person had inherited one or more polymorphisms in the enzymes that catalyze these reactions that slow the reactions down, that could make it more difficult for the cells to get enough L5-methyl THF. For example, one of these reactions is the MTHFR reaction, and many people have the C677T polymorphism in this enzyme, which slows the reaction down.

On the other hand, if the person absorbed a large dosage of folinic acid sublingually into their blood, while taking L5-methyl THF orally, then these two would compete for transport into the cells of the body in general by the reduced folate carriers (RFCs). These are the main transporters that bring folate into the cells of the body in general, and they have a much higher affinity for these two chemically reduced forms of folate than for folic acid. But if the concentration of folinic acid were high in the blood, this would cause less L5-methyl THF to be absorbed by the cells. If, in addition, there were one or more polymorphisms that hindered the conversion of folinic acid to L5-methyl THF, as I just discussed above, then that could cause the cells to get less of this form than they need to feed methionine synthase adequately.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[anne_likes_red]

Dan,
No I don't know for sure.
I can't tolerate sulfonamide drugs but I'm not at all sure if that's an indicator. What may be though, is that my molybdenum levels are very low.

 

[LaurieL]

The MTHFR C677T defect is easy to understand and even easier to treat, but the consequence of the MTHFR abnormality in kids appears to be profound, such that the parents of Autistic kids add a few more vowels to MTHFR in naming it.

Dietary folic acid, which usually is not in short supply, is readily converted in to one of the active forms of folic acid, known as tetrahydrofolate, or THF. MTHFR converts THF in to 5-methyl THF, more commonly referred to as 5-methyl folate. MTR (methionine synthase) then combines 5-methyl folate with homocysteine to form methionine.

Individuals who are (+/+) for MTHFR C677T (10% of the population, including me) have a great deal of trouble using dietary folic acid to detoxify homocysteine, as we cannot efficiently convert dietary folic acid into its 5-methyl folate form. Elevated homocysteine leads to free radical stress, vascular plaque formation, abnormal clotting, and an increased risk for cardiovascular and neurologic disease yikes!

If you are (+/+) or (+/-) for MTHFR (another 20% of the population), supplementation with folic acid is not the answer it cant help you. However, low dose 5-methyl folate supplementation will bypass this defect with 100% efficacy. If you have a MTHFR C677T defect, we need to provide you with 5-methyl folate.

Sources of 5-methyl folate include Folapro (800 mcg 5-methyl folate), Metanx (5-methyl folate 2.8 mg, P5P 25 mg, and methyl-B12 2 mg), and Cerafolin NAC (5-methyl folate 5.6 mg, NAC 500 mg, and methyl-B12 2 mg). Folapro is available over-the-counter, at the office or on line. Metanx and Cerafolin are available as prescription agents, but your health insurance typically will not cover their cost as they are just vitamins.

Of interest, homocysteine is a known bad actor. An elevated homocysteine level increases your risk for cardiovascular and neurological disease. Many studies have been carried out, utilizing various cocktails of folic acid, B6, and B12, or a placebo agent in large groups of individuals, with or without known disease states.

Average homocysteine levels will fall, but not all subjects will respond with a reduction in homocysteine. Clinical event rates typically fall in response to supplementation, but some studies show no effect, and one study of folic acid supplementation in the elderly showed an increased rate of dementia. Why did this occur? Youve already figured it out.

If we give folic acid to individuals with an elevated homocysteine level and normal MTHFR function, they will respond with a reduction in homocysteine and a reduction in disease risk or event rate, but if we give folic acid to an individual who is MTHFR (+/+) or (+/-), then not much happens.

Actually, if we flood you with folic acid that you cannot use, we can block absorption of the sparse 5-methyl folate present in your diet, so your homocysteine level might even rise. Also, excess folic acid can be converted in to alpha-ketoglutarate, aggravating a co-existent CBS abnormality. Thus we can understand how supplementation inappropriate for ones genotype can have an undesired negative consequence.

I used to think of homocysteine as an individual bad actor, a cause of cardiovascular and neurological disease. Now I look at an elevated homocysteine not as a bad actor, but as a marker of a real bad actor, that being a Methyl Cycle abnormality. To further confuse and befuddle research attempting to link homocysteine with disease states, we must also point out that the sickest patients, or the still healthy but at greatest risk individuals in our society, are those with the lowest homocysteine levels, because their homocysteine levels are low not due to a good diet, but because they harbor the CBS up regulation.

I could go on and try to link homocysteine levels with the story of the three bears, but instead we will cover the SHMT abnormality in THF (dietary folate) processing, and then move on to MTR/MTRR.

http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm

Lots of specific information at this link. I came here wanting to post this on my Rash thread and you have already mentioned it. :

Laurie

 

[aprilk1869]

I saw that someone on iherb wrote that they place the metafolin under their tongue to let it dissolve. Any thoughts?

 

[dannybex]

Hi Freddd,

I know I won't get to it for awhile, as I'm starting out cautiously, but I guess you're saying that the Enzymatic Therapy b12 has different effects from the Jarrow B12?

 

[dannybex]

Thanks for posting that chart LaurieL. Wow...talk about complex! I sure hope I don't have some of those other abnormalities discussed. I seem to do well -- I THINK -- on glucosamine sulfate -- seem to notice a difference if I stop it. It's interesting that they consider it a sulfur problem supplement, as on the frequent dose chelation board it's discussed as helpful for people with sulfation problems (transsulfuration?) because it provides the needed sulfate which they say becomes depleted.

Also interesting is their list of high sulfur foods...different from others on the web. But the same applies to high-salicylate foods...everyone seems to have different foods on their lists, except for the ubiquitous spices.

Obviously waaaay too over my head. Darn it.

But thanks!

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd,

I know I won't get to it for awhile, as I'm starting out cautiously, but I guess you're saying that the Enzymatic Therapy b12 has different effects from the Jarrow B12?

Hi Dan,

Emphatically yes. And they are both superior in somewhat different ways. I use them to be carried into the CNS/CSF with the 10mg injection, Even a a small percentage is enough to shift it towards neurological healing. They each, and especially both, are better than any injectable mb12 I've ever had, though a few batches have been close.

Without all that folic acid suddenly its better than it has been since the glutathione disaster more than 2 years ago. My feet, while not yet up to where they were before the glutathione, they appear to be rapidly improving. Right now they are at the hurt like hell and burning, up from numb and painful/stiff. However, because of prior experience I recognize those in this context as on the road to improvement. I've been this way before, half a dozen times before each reversal, glutathione by far the worst, and the others mysterious but always with the now recognized folate deficiency symptoms which go back to when I was a kid. I had NEVER lost the angular cheilitis until about 4 years ago, the first time I tried some Metafolin. Since starting glutathione it has never been far away. The sides of my mouth are masses of scar tissue from lifelong sores.

 

[Shellbell]

Danny, thank you for the response to my post a day or two ago. I think you right about the amount of folic acid in the supps causing my issues. I have now stopped taking the adb12 daily and added in the folate yesterday. BANG! It packs a punch. But I am ok tonight and my nervous system is settling down for the time being. Like Fred, I will take the adb12 once a week or get one without the folic acid.

I am continuing to take the other vitamins and minerals, minus zinc for now. I am taking 4.5mg of mb12 and am up to 1/4 tab x 3 of folate a day now. We will see how it goes. It's only been a full day at this dose and the symptoms have been intense. But I am still here and holding on.

One thing I can say that has changed is the ability to take supplements now. My sensitivities to supplements I have tried in the past are more tolerable now. Yahoo! It's just the darn Bs that are knocking my socks off. I will just push through and adjust as needed.

Thanks,
Shellbell

 

[Shellbell]

Danny, thank you for the response to my post a day or two ago. I think you right about the amount of folic acid in the supps causing my issues. I have now stopped taking the adb12 daily and added in the folate yesterday. BANG! It packs a punch. But I am ok tonight and my nervous system is settling down for the time being. Like Fred, I will take the adb12 once a week or get one without the folic acid.

I am continuing to take the other vitamins and minerals, minus zinc for now. I am taking 4.5mg of mb12 and am up to 1/4 tab x 3 of folate a day now. We will see how it goes. It's only been a full day at this dose and the symptoms have been intense. But I am still here and holding on.

One thing I can say that has changed is the ability to take supplements now. My sensitivities to supplements I have tried in the past are more tolerable now. Yahoo! It's just the darn Bs that are knocking my socks off. I will just push through and adjust as needed.

Thanks,
Shellbell