Five ways to reduce your ME/CFS "wired but tired" hyperaroused brain state

overtheedge

Senior Member
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270
@Hoosierfans

I tried a number of GABA meds a few months back but not for very long as i dont have anxiety and they didn't seem to do anything for my energy levels and I wanted to move on to things that had a chance of improving my overall condition. The GABA meds did make me feel good and relaxed but not strongly though again the testing wasn't very thorough and i didn't use more than one at once, the only thing i have that makes me feel powerfully relaxed is CBD, if you wanted to feel relaxed you might try that though i dont know if it will do much about your neurotransmitters.

CBD makes things feel good for me the way they did back when i only had mild cfs but it also becomes easy to throw away lots of energy, tho, sometimes you just need to feel good and in your case the tradeoff might be an overall beneficial and sustainable one since you got such good symptom relief from being relaxed by other drugs. CBD is somewhat expensive though. if you do decide to go that route tell me because i have a good bit of info on CBD

There was a time when the GABA meds worked strongly for me and i would be so relaxed from them but i didn't test them much then and didnt get anything like that when testing them recently but they were really something so maybe you'll be lucky and be one of the ones who are strongly affected by such herbs

Also, I can tell you what all the GABA herbs did for me when i tested them a few months ago but everyone is different and I didn't use them for long with the exception of theanine

Theanine helps with sleep even when i cant feel its effects strongly so i take it sometimes at awakenings
 
Messages
54
You might also look into high dose inositol (search my posts for info), as this can have a calming effect by raising serotonin.

@Hoosierfans

In many ways Inositol was one of the best supplements I've ever tried. I felt calm yet full of energy, motivation and like my 'normal' self when taking it. My acne-prone skin completely cleared up too and for once in my life it looked good!

However, the severe insomnia that I've had for the past 3 years also started around the same time. I stopped taking it shortly after and whilst the sleep problems have never gone away, they get much, much worse whenever I re-start the Inositol ( which I've been tempted to do a couple of times because the other effects were soooooo good).

It could be a coincidence, but because I wasn't taking anything else at the time, and because my sleep has never been the same since, I felt the need to share this experience. I'd definitely suggest going low and slow with it as they say, especially if you're someone who feels wired already ( as it makes me feel that way which is not a state I'd experienced prior to taking).
 

Hoosierfans

Senior Member
Messages
408
@Hoosierfans

In many ways Inositol was one of the best supplements I've ever tried. I felt calm yet full of energy, motivation and like my 'normal' self when taking it. My acne-prone skin completely cleared up too and for once in my life it looked good!

However, the severe insomnia that I've had for the past 3 years also started around the same time. I stopped taking it shortly after and whilst the sleep problems have never gone away, they get much, much worse whenever I re-start the Inositol ( which I've been tempted to do a couple of times because the other effects were soooooo good).

It could be a coincidence, but because I wasn't taking anything else at the time, and because my sleep has never been the same since, I felt the need to share this experience. I'd definitely suggest going low and slow with it as they say, especially if you're someone who feels wired already ( as it makes me feel that way which is not a state I'd experienced prior to taking).
Thank you for that warning about the inositol. I am pretty sure it helps with serotonin...and serotonin in and of itself can be activating. Some people it really helps with anxiety, some it makes folks worse.

It’s on my list of things to try, after I get through the various GABA substances suggested in several threads. On my list (and I will report back):

1. Klonopin ( just trying a small dose every 3 or 4 days to be able to compare with the other agents)

2. Herbal stack of lemon balm, valerian and American skullcap. Ordered tinctures from HerbPharm

3. PharmaGABA (supplement available on Amazon)

4. Liposomal GABA ( supplement available on Amazon)

5. HolisticHeal GABA (Amy Yaskos product)

6. Kava — several strains ordered from Kalm with Kava. This is most intriguing to me as it sensitizes GABA receptors over time.

The other product that folks have had success with in here is straight GABA powder from powder city. Have not ordered that yet as my credit card needs a break from the last 24 hours. 😝
 

Hoosierfans

Senior Member
Messages
408
I'd be interested to hear how you get on with the lemon balm and skullcap as I'm thinking of trying those next for the insomnia.

I will let you know. Giving it a try today. I am mixing a full dropper of Valerian, skullcap, lemon balm and Passion flower. 👍🏻
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
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1,745
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South East England, UK
I haven't read all the thread but wanted to report that at times in the night I can have severe anxiety usually related to dizziness but what has helped apart from a tiny dose of clonazapan (just 1/4 of a tablet) is 125 mg GABA taken mid evening followed by another 125 mg on going to bed. This has a good relaxing effect taken alongside 25 mg Lyrica so I can get off to sleep and if I do wake up provided I use a guided meditation I can get back for some decent sleep.

Its about 20 years or a bit more that I have had to resort to the tiny dose of clonazapn if my brain refuses to switch off sufficiently for me to sleep or if the anxiety is so extreme but in all that time I have never taken more than the 1/4 of a tablet. My GP prescribes it for me and usually 30 tablets last about 10 months or a bit longer. Its been the difference between me keeping my sanity on a bad night or going completely over the top but I am happy to say this very rarely happens now. Usually it will be the result of a virus or infection or as has just happened as the result of my first 31 injections of Botox for migraine. This caused a massive central nervous system overreaction for 3 nights and days and has resulted in me getting a respiratory infection because of the stress of it all.

I also react well to a mixture of Valarian and Hops as in Vogel's Stress Relief for Daytime Use and if I take about 15 drops of this after lunch I can pretty well guarantee a short nap which leaves me feeling a whole lot better and relaxed.

Pam
 
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57
Idebenone is an analog of coq10, wow i need to try this.
How did you get on Kallogann with the Idebenone? Did it help your balance inyour brain? Blood flow improved maybe? I have ordered a box as want to try it for my woozy brain LOL
 

MartinK

Senior Member
Messages
388
The NMDA receptors and GABA receptors on a neuron thus have opposite effects, and are like the two sides of a seesaw: if you push the seesaw down on the NMDA side, you increase neuronal excitation, and if you push the seesaw down on the GABA side, you decrease neuronal excitation and increase neuronal relaxation.

@Hip do you know, if influencing these receptors except "wired" feeling also play a significant role in heat intolerance? I'm trying to figure it out, because now in the summer I'm struggling with extreme heat intolerance and it occurs to me that some connections lead here...
(I dont have heat intolerance from MCAS hypersensitivity)
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
18,150
in the summer I'm struggling with extreme heat intolerance and it occurs to me that some connections lead here...

I don't know if there is any connection to heat intolerance.

If you have dysautonomia (POTS, NMH, etc) this can lead to heat intolerance.
 
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600
@Hip do you use any of the things in the first post still, whats your glutamate handling regime?

These things should reduce screen and sound sensitivity right?

I get soo overstimulered in my head when in PEM mode, this has to be the reason. Small excertions somehow trigger neuroinflammation and then the glutamate floodgates open to bring the PEM. Is that a plausible model from your point of view? I would guess thats whats going on.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
18,150
@Hip do you use any of the things in the first post still, whats your glutamate handling regime?

These things should reduce screen and sound sensitivity right?

I get soo overstimulered in my head when in PEM mode, this has to be the reason. Small excertions somehow trigger neuroinflammation and then the glutamate floodgates open to bring the PEM. Is that a plausible model from your point of view? I would guess thats whats going on.

I use the N-acetyl glucosamine (NAG) regularly when anxiety levels increase. I have a whole thread on using NAG to treat anxiety. Sometimes I use around 1 or 2 grams of micronized kava kava powder if I am feeling agitated.

I have not found any of these things helps with sound sensitivity. The only thing which I found helps for that is very-low dose amisulpride, detailed in my thread here. I find my sound sensitivity is dopamine connected.


If you are feeling overstimulated, this can be due to overmethylation, especially if you are taking supplements which boost methylation. An effective treatment for this overmethylation overstimulation is 500 to 1000 mg of niacinamide, a known way to reduce overmethylation.

I get both generalized anxiety disorder sometimes, and overmethylation overstimulation, and it's actually not easy to distinguish the two. But the treatment is different. I find NAG does nothing for my overstimulation; only niacinamide work for that. But NAG works wonders for my anxiety.
 

Stretched

Senior Member
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Location
U.S. Atlanta
Re GAD (generalized anxiety disorder) I’m wondering if others feel these same symptoms which are really distressing: adrenaline in the GI system with stomach churning; severe sleep disturbance due to adrenaline flow, with racing thoughts; emotional state in constant fight or flight status?
 
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Messages
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@Hoosierfans

In many ways Inositol was one of the best supplements I've ever tried. I felt calm yet full of energy, motivation and like my 'normal' self when taking it. My acne-prone skin completely cleared up too and for once in my life it looked good!

However, the severe insomnia that I've had for the past 3 years also started around the same time. I stopped taking it shortly after and whilst the sleep problems have never gone away, they get much, much worse whenever I re-start the Inositol ( which I've been tempted to do a couple of times because the other effects were soooooo good).

It could be a coincidence, but because I wasn't taking anything else at the time, and because my sleep has never been the same since, I felt the need to share this experience. I'd definitely suggest going low and slow with it as they say, especially if you're someone who feels wired already ( as it makes me feel that way which is not a state I'd experienced prior to taking).
How are you now?
 
Messages
62
This post details five approaches for reducing the over-stimulated, over-exited, hyperaroused "wired but tired" mental state that is often found in ME/CFS.

This feeling of "wired but tired" is specifically mentioned in the ICC definition of ME/CFS (see page 17), in the context of associated symptoms such as restless sleep, unrefreshing sleep, and the inability to go back to sleep (insomnia). The fact that being "wired" is being linked with these sleep problems suggests that calming the "wired" state may improve the quality of sleep.

A similar sort of "wired" hyperarousal is also found in post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), where this "on edge" feeling can lead to insomnia, anger and irritability. 1

I think this hyperaroused "wired" mental state most likely arises from elevated levels of glutamate in the brain. Dr Cheney has proposed similar ideas, as has @Marco in his blog here.

Glutamate is a stimulatory neurotransmitter, too much of which over-excites neurons. Glutamate activates the NMDA receptor on neurons, and activating the NMDA receptor is analogous to turning up the volume control of the neuron, amplifying the signals the neuron receives.

The counterpart to the neurotransmitter glutamate is another neurotransmitter called GABA, which activates a neuronal receptor of the same name, the GABA receptor. As the GABA neurotransmitter activates the GABA receptors, this relaxes the neuron, and turns down the volume.

The NMDA receptors and GABA receptors on a neuron thus have opposite effects, and are like the two sides of a seesaw: if you push the seesaw down on the NMDA side, you increase neuronal excitation, and if you push the seesaw down on the GABA side, you decrease neuronal excitation and increase neuronal relaxation.



So now we detail five approaches for easing the hyperaroused "wired" mental state often found in ME/CFS. These approaches reduce neuronal excitability in various ways: by reducing brain glutamate levels, by reducing NMDA receptor activation, and by increasing GABA receptor activation.

(1) Brain inflammation pumps out lots of glutamate. This glutamate comes from microglia that are activated as part of the inflammatory response. 1 One study on neuroinflammation in ME/CFS found that microglia are chronically activated in ME/CFS patients, so are likely constantly secreting glutamate. 1 This chronic brain inflammation in ME/CFS may be due to an ongoing low-level brain infection (and three brain autopsies have found enteroviral infections in the brain in ME/CFS patients).

By taking anti-inflammatories that target brain inflammation, you may be able to reduce your brain extracellular glutamate levels, which in turn may calm down the "wired" state.

Anti-inflammatory supplements that I have found calming, both for the "wired" state and for my anxiety symptoms, are N-acetyl-glucosamine (NAG) 700 mg, turmeric 1000 mg and flaxseed oil 15 ml daily. NAG has also been shown to reduce excitatory states in the brain. Other supplements that can reduce brain inflammation are found in this post and this post.

Inflammation in the intestines is now known to ramp up brain inflammation, via the vagus nerve and other signaling routes. 1 2 So by reducing inflammation in the gut, it may lower brain inflammation and decrease brain glutamate levels, which in turn may reduce the "wired" feeling. Many ME/CFS patients have gut symptoms, perhaps due to chronic viral infections in the digestive tract.

I found a combination of probiotics and prebiotics, along with Saccharomyces boulardii, help reduce my physical gut symptoms (I have IBS-D), and also noticeably reduce both my anxiety levels and "wired" state.


(2) As well as reducing glutamate levels, we can also reduce the effects of glutamate by blocking the NMDA receptors that glutamate normally activates. NMDA receptor blocking can be achieved with an NMDA antagonist such as high dose transdermal magnesium sulfate, applied to the body skin once or twice daily using the method described in this post.

Magnesium in high doses is a good NMDA receptor blocker, preventing glutamate from activating the NMDA receptor. Oral magnesium will not really help much, because of bowel tolerance issues: many people will find oral doses higher than around 500 mg of elemental magnesium daily will cause diarrhea. But applying magnesium transdermally does not have this problem, so you can achieve higher doses by the transdermal route. Note that you should take calcium (orally) if you are taking high doses of magnesium for extended periods.

I found that the calming effect of transdermal magnesium kicks in around 3 hours after application.

As an alternative to transdermal magnesium sulfate, there are also some drugs that block NMDA receptors, such as memantine.


(3) This third approach is more experimental, but high brain levels of glutamate can also be caused by a down-regulation of the activity of the GLT-1 glutamate transporter, which is responsible for removing most (90%) of the excess glutamate from the brain.

Indeed, one study found that as activated microglia start pumping out glutamate into the brain, unexpectedly, glutamate transporter functioning is simultaneously down-regulated, which only further exacerbates the glutamate build up in the brain. 1

So if the aim is to reduce brain glutamate levels, it may be a good strategy to ramp up the glutamate transporters, which pump glutamate out of the extracellular spaces of the brain.

To boost glutamate transporter function, the antibiotic amoxicillin at a dose of 2000 mg twice daily is very effective. Amoxicillin can increase glutamate transporter expression by over 500% in a matter of days — see this post about amoxicillin and glutamate uptake for more details.

A list of glutamate transporter boosters is given here.

I found amoxicillin 2000 mg twice daily had a noticeable calming effect on the mind, though it takes two or three days before these calming effects manifest (because it takes a little while for amoxicillin to increase the number of glutamate transporters in your brain).

The glutamate transporter boosting effects of beta-lactam antibiotics such as amoxicillin and ceftriaxone are being investigated for the treatment of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) and alcohol dependence, both of which involve glutamate. 1 2


(4) Another approach to easing the hyperaroused "wired" mental state is by increasing the GABA system activation, as GABA relaxes the neuron. The classic approach to this involves taking benzodiazepines such as clonazepam (Klonopin). Benzodiazepines are GABA receptor positive allosteric modulators, which means they make the GABA receptor more responsive to the GABA neurotransmitter, and in this way, boost the GABA system.

However, the problem with treatments such as benzodiazepines that work on the GABA system is the issue of tolerance and withdrawal symptoms. Tolerance means the loss of effect of the drug over time. And withdrawal symptoms to benzodiazepines can sometimes be quite nasty. One survey of ME/CFS patients taking Klonopin found that 36% experienced no withdrawal symptoms; 32% experienced minor or moderate withdrawal symptoms; but 32% experienced severe or very severe withdrawal symptoms.

So benzodiazepines like Klonopin come with a risk of possible tolerance, and possible severe withdrawal symptoms.

Tolerance and withdrawal symptoms are in fact found with many supplements and drugs that work on the GABA system. That is why in general I think the best to approach to reducing brain over-stimulation and hyperarousal is by working on the glutamate / NMDA side of the seesaw, using the above approaches (1), (2) and possibly (3). This is because there are no tolerance and withdrawal problems with glutamate / NMDA treatments. It's only with GABA treatments that tolerance and withdrawal issues can occur.

However, there are some effective GABA treatments that do not suffer from tolerance and withdrawal problems: kava kava root (Piper methysticum) 300 mg once ot twice daily is one such GABA treatment that works well, and does not appear to be subject to tolerance and withdrawal.

Kava kava seems to increase the GABAergic response by increasing the number of GABA binding sites. 1 So rather than producing a loss of effect over time (tolerance), conceivably kava may actually nicely increase GABA system sensitivity over time.

I find the relaxing effects of 300 mg of kava kava root kick in after around 2 hours.

Note that kava has on rare occasions has been associated with liver damage, but the WHO suggest that liver toxicity may only come from kava plant leaves and stem. Kava root appears safe. Acetone or ethanol extracts of the active ingredient are also questionable, but water extracts appear safe. 1


(5)
A fifth approach to reducing glutamate levels is by the supplement N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC), at a dose of around 600 mg taken three times daily (thanks to @Valentijn for suggesting this NAC approach). A sustained release NAC formulation may work best, such as Jarrow N-A-C Sustain.

NAC's mechanism of action of reducing brain glutamate levels appears to be the following:






Note that if you have an overstimulation mental state (like the overstimulation that can arise from overmethylation), rather than a mental tension mental state, then then taking vitamin B3 in the form of niacinamide 1000 mg can be very effective.

Sometimes it can be hard to distinguish between the overstimulation feeling and the mental tension anxiety feeling.
I would suggest ketamine for this as well.
 

Florida Guy

Senior Member
Messages
280
This is a great thread, I learned a lot and I've been studying treatments for insomnia for many years. I see mention of many of my old favorites and some I will probably go back to again. The only one I did not see mentioned in this thread was thc which has anti anxiety as well as hypnotic effects. Its available some places and not others so maybe that is controversial?

I keep seeing people talk about taking benzodiazepines and I feel compelled to say a few things about that. Whether its lorazepam, xanax, valium or any other benzo, they have a difficult safety profile. They are meant to be only used for short periods, no more than a couple weeks. They quickly lose effect if taken for long periods and addiction creeps up quickly and quietly. The withdrawal on a big habit is hell, no other word for it. Huge rebound anxiety and insomnia, no sleep for days, convulsions. Many go back to using it since its so hard to quit a long time habit. But there is a way

A very few seem to be able to take them for long periods and while the effect becomes less, they don't raise the dose and just stay with the reduced effect. When they stop it, they should taper not cold turkey. Most people dont have the discipline to do that and will slide down the path to addiction. Long term use of benzos same as long term antihistamines leads to dementia and greater risk of alzheimers

I was on them for a while for sleep and all these things happened to me. I knew even then benzos were dangerous but I thought I knew what I was doing. I took only a small dose just two times a week, no more. Surely that would be no problem? Well after some period, may have been close to a year, not sure how long, I was having to increase the dose and decided to quit.

I took something else instead and for a while, maybe a week, no problem. One night I was sleeping in bed and suddenly a bolt of lightning hit my body and I jumped, must have gone up a ways in the air I jumped so hard. It was what they call a brain zap, kind of a low level convulsion. That scared me and I began to taper off which I should have done at the beginning but I thought it was no big deal

If you have taken any benzo for more than a month you really should look up the ashton method of getting off it. Basically what it is is you reduce the amount by 5 to 10% every week. And in a period of time maybe 2 or 3 months you painlessly withdraw. Not totally painless, there will be an increase in anxiety, and sleeplessness but its not such a huge beatdown of your system and you should not convulse. People have actually died from withdrawal convulsions or had broken ribs or other bones

I hope people will take this seriously.
 

Dysfunkion

Senior Member
Messages
415
I also have generalized anxiety with an edge on social anxiety that come with my PTSD package. Things do get very tricky but over the past few years and recently I've been able to really dissect what is going on because wired and tired PEM and purely mentally stemming symptoms go hand in hand which will make each other worse. IF my brain signalling is under control even if I encounter a trigger I will get a little jolt with noticeable tension in the usual areas of my body but it won't spiral into that signature PEM "I'm going to lose my mind" feeling when I an't escape a stressful situation. It's as if my brain doesn't have any break system on it and when a strong enough signal erupts with excitation everything can go haywire with intense generalized anxiety and increased trigger reactivity very quickly. If it gets too bad I will get complete social dysfunction with vocal/communication difficulties, and need to sit alone in quiet environment for a long while to reset myself. This depending on how severe that over excitation was can take many hours, sometimes I won't get a good break till the next day. This will even happen with good feelings of excitation, it's not limited to just being triggered in another way.

It will also trigger immune reactions and flu like symptoms when it gets that high. I'm not sure what is really going on under the surface though. It FEELS like the over excitation is continuously reactivating a virus or some kind of infection. I have had mental windows of feeling "normal" before socially and mentally but these are extremely rare. The last time this happened was I kid you not when I ate some bad scallops and got food poisoning. I didn't feel good overall but my social communication got massive improvements including my vocal problems, my anxiety levels dropped to almost nothing save for what my triggers did at a baseline which was manageable with some manual self reasoning, my sensory issues just disappeared, and work was a breeze because of how low the PEM level got. When I got home I just started wondering what to do next and how productive I was going to be, everything was suddenly so much brighter. Unfortunately the next day and forward as I recovered it all creeped back in indistinguishable from before.
 

Florida Guy

Senior Member
Messages
280
Anxiety is a major problem for some people. One thing that helps is theanine, its quite safe and gentle. Another thing is a peptide called selank. It actually has a longer name but you can find it under selank. I have used this peptide and it works. Its given by a nasal spray, it does not need to be injected.

The instructions say that it may not have an effect the first time you use it. It gets better after a few uses. You just spray a little puff into one nostril and in about 20 minutes it starts working. Its my understanding that it does not produce tolerance or addiction. It also does not give the whole body feeling or the super relaxed feeling you might get from a benzo. Its like nothing happens but you are no longer anxious

When you have something on hand that will take care of it, you no longer worry so much about an anxiety attack because you know you can handle it.
 

MartinK

Senior Member
Messages
388
I have to get rid of my crazy wired feeling that makes it impossible for me to fall asleep.
Generally Pregabalin helps me a lot, but I can't take it for long because it makes my tinnitus worse. Also, when I stop it, the inability to asleep gets worse, especially in the first few days after stopping. And this is bad...

I think this points to some sort of Glutamate or NMDA issue...want to try anything that has a chance to improve it.

If I respond well to Pregabalin, what other meds could be tried that don't have the risk of tinnitus? For example Gabapentin did same problem with tinnitus (and is weaker than pregabalin).
 
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15
I don't think anyone else has mentioned it but N-Acetyl Cystine Ethyl Ester (NACET) 100mg (+600mg Glycine but I think that just helps absorption a bit) once per day on an empty stomach helps me with this. Plain NAC doesn't do anything noticeable for me even up to 2400mg. NACET is supposed to have much greater bioavailability due to being lipophilic, perhaps some people like me have almost zero bioavailability with normal NAC but would still benefit from it.

Propranolol 20mg LR and Pregabalin also help me. Ketamine helps but only during the direct effects which isn't very useful. N-Acetyl Glucosamine doesn't help and a few weeks after I started taking it I began throwing up about 15 minutes after taking a capsule every single time. I forgot about this and tried again a few months later but the same thing happened. Could be an issue with my batch in particular (Jarrows Formula brand) though.
 
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