Dysregulated provisions of oxidisable substrates to the mitochondria in ME/CFS lymphoblasts (Missailidis et al., 2021)

[Learner1]

For those wondering why the authors chose lymphoblasts in order to conduct this study, see last year's publication from the same authors:

Cell-Based Blood Biomarkers for ME/CFS (Missailidis et al., 2020)
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...kers-for-me-cfs-missailidis-et-al-2020.83028/

That's great that they were convenient for the researchers. However, it doesn't say anything about muscle or brain mitochondria, which may not be doing the same thing.

 

[wigglethemouse]

I miss @Murph's and @nandixon's contributions to the discussions of scientific papers, especially this one being Australia based...... Hope things are not too bad with them.

 

[godlovesatrier]

BCAA's and increased protein (100 to 120g per day) made a huge impact for me. But now I tend to suffer with over simulation, maybe I always did from the BCAA's. I've also been experimenting with other therapies which has meant I haven't had to take any PEM busters. But as ever one supplement isn't enough and my body gets out if equilibrium quickly when I take something. I tend to suffer from insomnia because of what I take for my ME. If I don't take anything I sleep a lot better. Which continues to make me wonder what subset I fall into to be honest.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Given- all these issues with how to produce energy...to run the body functions.... could some nutritional expert take this information and help us with: dietary strategies?

 

[mitoMAN]

Given- all these issues with how to produce energy...to run the body functions.... could some nutritional expert take this information and help us with: dietary strategies?

I very much dont think this is possible.. Not with dietary strategies when there is a whole metabolic trap sitting around.

 

[gbells]

Glutamine, cysteine, and glycine are needed to produce glutathione. If one is depleted in glycine and/or cysteine, glutamine won't get used up.

That's incorrect. Glutamine is used as fuel by white blood cells so it would be used up eventually.

Glutamine is the main fuel source for your body’s lymphocytes, white blood cells that fight infection and disease. But your blood’s glutamine levels decline when we’re sick or injured, reducing these immune cells’ ability to defend your body.

https://www.webmd.com/diet/health-benefits-glutamine#1

 

[Pyrrhus]

Given- all these issues with how to produce energy...to run the body functions.... could some nutritional expert take this information and help us with: dietary strategies?

Unfortunately, this study does not provide enough information to formulate any solid nutritional recommendations.

 

[gbells]

Given- all these issues with how to produce energy...to run the body functions.... could some nutritional expert take this information and help us with: dietary strategies?

Nope, wouldn't work. If the problem is mitochondrial fragmentation from viral load then throwing nutrients at it won't change a thing. The problem isn't malnutrition so there is no solution down that path.

 

[Learner1]

That's incorrect. Glutamine is used as fuel by white blood cells so it would be used up eventually

feel free to read about it here:

https://biomedres.us/fulltexts/BJSTR.MS.ID.002293.php

"L-Glutamine. Athletes may increase glutathione body level by supplementation with L- glutamine (Gln), which is a naturally occurring nonessential neutral amino acid [69]. It is important in the acid base regulation, gluconeogenesis, and as a precursor of nucleotide bases and the antioxidant glutathione.'

Nope, wouldn't work. If the problem is mitochondrial fragmentation from viral load then throwing nutrients at it won't change a thing. The problem isn't malnutrition so there is no solution down that path.

This is incorrect. At the 2016 United Mitochondrial Disease Foundation Conference I attended, researchers explained how mitochondria can be repaired and recycled. Nutrients are the only way to do this. The attached explains this.

 

[bensmith]

Did the supplements help them?

 

[Learner1]

Yes, the mitochondrial supplements described by Pall and in the article I posted above have made a nesurable difference in both my symptoms and labs over a 3 year period

 

[gbells]

feel free to read about it here:

https://biomedres.us/fulltexts/BJSTR.MS.ID.002293.php

"L-Glutamine. Athletes may increase glutathione body level by supplementation with L- glutamine (Gln), which is a naturally occurring nonessential neutral amino acid [69]. It is important in the acid base regulation, gluconeogenesis, and as a precursor of nucleotide bases and the antioxidant glutathione.'


This is incorrect. At the 2016 United Mitochondrial Disease Foundation Conference I attended, researchers explained how mitochondria can be repaired and recycled. Nutrients are the only way to do this. The attached explains this.

Can't agree with you on any of this.

 

[Murph]

I miss @Murph's and @nandixon's contributions to the discussions of scientific papers, especially this one being Australia based...... Hope things are not too bad with them.

Thanks for your concern! I'm as well as ever, just been busy doing other things. But i will be interviewing Daniel Missailidis soon for an article, so please suggest some good questions to ask him!

 

[wigglethemouse]

Thanks for your concern! I'm as well as ever, just been busy doing other things. But i will be interviewing Daniel Missailidis soon for an article, so please suggest some good questions to ask him!

Glad to hear that! Might be an idea to start a Q&A thread. If it's not too late here are a few questions :
* I would love to know more about collaborations - he has mentioned starting to work with Chris Armstrong for metabolomics.
* How open are other researchers to discussing ideas. Have many/any contacted him or Paul Fisher to learn more about their goundbreaking work in ME on lymphoblasts?
* How useful have lymphoblasts been in research for other diseases (studied by his department) and have results & findings from that work held up in other cell types?
* Bhupesh Prusty has shown cells placed in ME plasma behave differently to same ones placed in Healthy plasma when exposed to H1N1 and HSV1 virus - Ones in ME plasma seem to have an antiviral phenotype. In Daniels research on lymphoblasts could the process of converting lympocytes to lymphoblasts by exposure to EBV be reprogramming the cells differently in ME due to an antiviral response to EBV that ME cells have. So in that case, EBV is quite critical in programming the cells to show the mitochondrial deficits.

And please thank Daniel for his excellent work!

 

[Marylib]

Daniel and Paul Fisher, Leighton Barnden and plenty of Aussies, one Kiwi (hopefully another one before long) do very interesting research and write articles, etc. This forum is skewed to the northern hemisphere, perhaps.
@Learner1 I appreciate your sharing all you learn from your testing. I can't afford that kind of thing anymore, but when I first lost my robust health nearly 30 years ago, I got my amino acid levels measured and they were shocking. Every single one was tanked. For some reason I am still alive, but I have to keep telling myself to eat as much protein as possible. Maybe I'll try supplements again. This one looks interesting because whey protein powder induces nausea, while actual milk does not:
https://www.bulknutrients.com.au/products/future-whey/

 

[Learner1]

Daniel and Paul Fisher, Leighton Barnden and plenty of Aussies, one Kiwi (hopefully another one before long) do very interesting research and write articles, etc. This forum is skewed to the northern hemisphere, perhaps.

Oh, I know of several Aussies and New Zealanders on this forum. And we in the northern hemisphere are definitely familiar with Aussie and NZ researchers - I met Chris Armstrong and Neil McGregor at Stanford, and Paul Fisher was there, too.

@Learner1 I appreciate your sharing all you learn from your testing. I can't afford that kind of thing anymore, but when I first lost my robust health nearly 30 years ago, I got my amino acid levels measured and they were shocking. Every single one was tanked. For some reason I am still alive, but I have to keep telling myself to eat as much protein as possible.

I share what I can, because I know not everyone can get tested. However, plasma amino acids are a pretty standard test that almost any doctor can easily run.

Amino acids have important jobs to make the body run. You are wise to consume very good amount of protein. ME/CFS patients, particularly women, tend to be depleted in aminos, which is not good.

Maybe I'll try supplements again. This one looks interesting because whey protein powder induces nausea, while actual milk does not:
https://www.bulknutrients.com.au/products/future-whey/

Milk and whey induce nausea in me due to my milk allergies..

That looks like an interesting product, however I would be very careful about the ratio of aminos in a product like that. That one has extremely high glutamine, which could be a problem for some people, and it's low in several aminos which I know I tend to be lol and which the ME/CFS research has shown us to be low in.

 

[godlovesatrier]

You could try whey protein isolate? I found a great brand 2 months ago. Been using it twice a day with zero issues. It's great.

 

[Marylib]

@Learner1 thanks very much. I am unsure at this point what kind of balance of amino acids I need.
@godlovesatrier I'm not sure why whey isolate doesn't agree with me anymore. It did at one time but last time I bought the stuff that used to work well and the nausea came. I gave it away.

 

[Marylib]

[That looks like an interesting product, however I would be very careful about the ratio of aminos in a product like that. That one has extremely high glutamine, which could be a problem for some people, and it's low in several aminos which I know I tend to be lol and which the ME/CFS research has shown us to be low in.[/QUOTE]
@Learner1 - my recollection is the L-serine is one of those amino acids that has been recommended in the past - and I can't afford more testing of my amino acid levels at the moment. Do you recall others besides serine as being on the list for people with ME? - when you mentioned the glutamine, it woke up some distant memory in terms of glutamate toxicity. And the last time I tried phosphatidylserine, I didn't notice any change.

 

[Learner1]

- my recollection is the L-serine is one of those amino acids that has been recommended in the past - and I can't afford more testing of my amino acid levels at the moment. Do you recall others besides serine as being on the list for people with ME? - when you mentioned the glutamine, it woke up some distant memory in terms of glutamate toxicity. And the last time I tried phosphatidylserine, I didn't notice any change.

Adding one nutrient isn't like taking a drug with a dramatic change. Many times nutrients need cofactors, which you may be missing, causing the intervention to be less than successful. I take NT Factor, which contains all the phospholipids to repair by mitochondrial membranes. Although phosphatidylserine can be used to correct abnormal cortisol curves and promote sleep. But if that's not your problem, it won't be helpful.

As for amino acids, Maureen Hansen found these to be abnormal:

tryptophan, histidine, arginine, proline, valine, leucine, isoleucine, tyrosine, alanine, phenyalanine, glycine, serine, threonine, cysteine, methionine, alanine, aspartate and glutamate

Fluge and Mella found these:

isoleucine, leucine, lysine, phenylalanine, tryptophan, tyrosine and methionine, valine, histidine, glutamine, proline, asparagine, aspartate


Testing is always preferable to guessing. But, women in particular seem to be short of amino acids, so being on a higher protein diet might be a good idea.