Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[BrightCandle]

Clear bacterial growth on this from multiple colonies. I guess I need to get a Chromogenic Agar and a sterile needle and transfer colonies across to identify my species. I get colonies around half the time by the looks of things, all of the ones positive are first thing mid stream.

So far for people appearing positive on this test from Dr Markov appears to be 2/2. I do appear to have an infection in my kidneys.

 

[Nuno]

Clear bacterial growth on this from multiple colonies. I guess I need to get a Chromogenic Agar and a sterile needle and transfer colonies across to identify my species. I get colonies around half the time by the looks of things, all of the ones positive are first thing mid stream.

So far for people appearing positive on this test from Dr Markov appears to be 2/2. I do appear to have an infection in my kidney

3/3 with me. Ive tested myself and my mom (the healthy control). She was negative I was positive

 

[Hip]

Just to give an update on my progress with sending dipslides to the Markov clinic:

I shipped my dipslides and agars to the clinic by the UPS courier on 13 September, which cost £33 for the UPS Express 3-day service. If you ship on Monday morning, UPS say this will be delivered in Kyiv by 2 pm Thursday.

Unfortunately the UPS courier made some errors, and my parcel got stuck in the system, so it actually took 9 days (including weekends) to arrive, rather than the 3 days I expected.

Lucky however the bacteria were still alive after 9 days, and had not dried out. I had actually had placed a humidifier inside the parcel (consisting of a small plastic jar containing some dampened tissue paper), and this may have helped prevent dry out, and kept the bacteria alive.

The clinic said that some spots of mold had grown on the agar, due to the long time in transit, as possibly also due to the humidifier I placed in the parcel. However, they said that the bacteria on the agar were salvageable, in spite of the mold spots.

So the good news is that these bacteria appear to be able to survive international transit.

The clinic were able to identify three species of bacteria on the agar I sent them:

Enterococcus faecalis
Klebsiella pneumonia
Pseudomonas aeruginosa

So autovaccines which target these bacteria can now be made. Thus we have demonstrated that it is possible to send dipslides and agar to the clinic by international shipping, and to have the bacteria arrive alive.



The difficulty at present is working out the regulatory framework for shipping the autovaccines to me in the UK. Both the Markov clinic and myself have been looking into this, and there appear to be potential shipping issues at either end, from the export and import perspective. If these regulatory issues cannot be resolved, it may be that shipping is not possible, and then the only way to obtain the vaccines would be to travel to Kyiv in person to pick them up, or perhaps send a friend or relative to Kyiv to pick them up.

 

[perrier]

If now 3 people here are getting positive bacteria where are our researchers and scientists. Markov has been summarily dismissed.

 

[BrightCandle]

We need more samples, more people should buy dipslides and test their urine. Given Hip's amazing research and validation for himself and Nuno's and I's confirmation there is enough here to definitely be of interest, its not a one off but it might not be common. I suspect we probably want 20+ people. It is clearly stuff in the body not meant to be where it is and working out how to treat it would be a good even if its sub-optimal. To that end I will add some of the triple dose cranberries tablets and see what if anything this does over the weeks and I'll probably do a couple of dipslide test every few weeks to track until we have a better mechanism for treating this.

I am kind of lucky to be in the UK because all the work Hip does to work import/export will directly apply to me too although I don't think I am quite ready to start adding auto-vaccines into my body just yet.

 

[andyguitar]

The difficulty at present is working out the regulatory framework for shipping the autovaccines to me in the UK. Both the Markov clinic and myself have been looking into this, and there appear to be potential shipping issues at either end, from the export and import perspective.

If you have'nt all ready done so, try asking UPS what the rules are. They might not be bound by the same regulations the Postal service (in the UK and Ukraine) are.

 

[andyguitar]

If these regulatory issues cannot be resolved, it may be that shipping is not possible, and then the only way to obtain the vaccines would be to travel to Kyiv in person to pick them up, or perhaps send a friend or relative to Kyiv to pick them up.

It might be worth contacting UK Customs and Excise to see what laws there are about bringing them in.

 

[Hip]

If you have'nt all ready done so, try asking UPS what the rules are. They might not be bound by the same regulations the Postal service (in the UK and Ukraine) are.

Yes, that's true. I am in the process of doing this, writing to some couriers (UPS and FedEx to start with) to get more info.

It might be worth contacting UK Customs and Excise to see what laws there are about bringing them in.

I've been in contact with HM Revenue & Customs, but they have given me just terse, one-sentence answers to my questions, which have not been very helpful. I was hoping they might give some suggestions about possible ways forward, but they tend to keep their answers short.

For example, I asked HMRC if all else fails, and I have to travel to the Ukraine to pick up my medicine, is it legal for me to bring back that medicine in person by airplane. To that question they replied:

I would strongly discourage you from attempting to cross the UK border with unlicensed medicine that is subject to any kind of restriction.

That's not very helpful, as it does not actually tell me whether I can legally bring in these meds in person, along with all the appropriate prescriptions and documentation from the clinic.

I am going to contact the MHRA next.

 

[sometexan84]

If now 3 people here are getting positive bacteria where are our researchers and scientists. Markov has been summarily dismissed.

If the leaky gut leads to this type of bacterial translocation, it has actually been discussed a lot. But it's still kind of new in science in general. Like I told Hip earlier, a lot of people still don't believe in "leaky gut".

My question is... how is treating this bacteria going to seal the leak(s) and prevent it from happening over and over?

 

[Hip]

My question is... how is treating this bacteria going to seal the leak(s) and prevent it from happening over and over?

Dr Markov believes it is a bacterial dysbiosis in the kidneys that is the source of the bacterial toxins he finds in the blood of ME/CFS patients.

So this is a paradigm shift, because normally we think in terms of a gut dysbiosis and a leaky gut when we think of bacterial toxins like LPS entering the bloodstream. But Dr Markov's work points to the kidneys as the source of the bacterial toxins, not the gut.

A dysbiosis of course is where there is an overpopulation of certain species of bacteria. Dr Markov's high sensitivity urine test tries to identify the overpopulated bacterial species, and then makes an autovaccine to target that species (it could be a single species, or its could be 2 or 3 species which are in overpopulation in the kidneys).

So by using this autovaccine therapy, the immune system is directed to specifically attack the bacteria in overpopulation. In this way, the dysbiosis in the kidney is brought under control, and the release of bacterial toxins into the bloodstream ceases.

 

[sometexan84]

Dr Markov believes it is a bacterial dysbiosis in the kidneys that is the source of the bacterial toxins he finds in the blood of ME/CFS patients.

So this is a paradigm shift, because normally we think in terms of a gut dysbiosis and a leaky gut when we think of bacterial toxins like LPS entering the bloodstream. But Dr Markov's work points to the kidneys as the source of the bacterial toxins, not the gut.

A dysbiosis of course is where there is an overpopulation of certain species of bacteria. Dr Markov's high sensitivity urine test tries to identify the overpopulated bacterial species, and then makes an autovaccine to target that species (it could be a single species, or its could be 2 or 3 species which are in overpopulation in the kidneys).

So by using this autovaccine therapy, the immune system is directed to specifically attack the bacteria in overpopulation. In this way, the dysbiosis in the kidney is brought under control, and the release of bacterial toxins into the bloodstream ceases.

Well, you know... I really do expect you guys to see symptom improvement from this treatment. I really do.

 

[lint7]

Clear bacterial growth on this from multiple colonies. I guess I need to get a Chromogenic Agar and a sterile needle and transfer colonies across to identify my species. I get colonies around half the time by the looks of things, all of the ones positive are first thing mid stream.

So far for people appearing positive on this test from Dr Markov appears to be 2/2. I do appear to have an infection in my kidneys.

View attachment 44947

Impossible to say if the infection is in your kidneys based on the information you have. You seem to have bacteria in your urine, but that could come from anywhere in the urinary tract or the prostate. Either way, this is promising and should be investigated.

 

[lint7]

@Hip how does Dr. Markov know the problem is in the kidneys?

 

[BrightCandle]

Impossible to say if the infection is in your kidneys based on the information you have. You seem to have bacteria in your urine, but that could come from anywhere in the urinary tract or the prostate. Either way, this is promising and should be investigated.

So far on that it should be noted my GP is not interested in investigating it at all. I do wonder what it is the NHS does with its 100 billion pound budget somedays.

 

[Hip]

@Hip how does Dr. Markov know the problem is in the kidneys?

As you say, the bacteria that Dr Markov detects in the urine of ME/CFS patients could come from the kidneys, bladder or prostate (the detected bacteria could also be living in all these organs, which seems likely).

But Dr Markov points out that 2000 liters of blood pass through the kidneys daily for blood cleaning purposes, and he believes it is this high blood flow which is able to wash bacterial toxins from the kidneys into the bloodstream.

The bladder and prostate I don't think receive anywhere near that amount of blood, though I cannot find any specific figures for blood flow through these organs.

So as far as I understand it, that is the rationale for singling out the kidneys as the source of the bacterial toxins he finds in the blood of ME/CFS patients. Though I think Dr Igor Markov would admit that he cannot he 100% sure that the kidneys are the source, and he wants to see more research to be done.

It is also possible that although the bacteria used to make the autovaccines come from the urinary tract, these same bacteria could be living in other regions of the body, like in the intestines, sinuses or nasopharynx, and that the beneficial effect of autovaccine therapy for ME/CFS arises from fighting these bacteria throughout the entire body, not just the kidneys.

 

[sometexan84]

As you say, the bacteria that Dr Markov detects in the urine of ME/CFS patients could come from the kidneys, bladder or prostate (the detected bacteria could also be living in all these organs, which seems likely).

But Dr Markov points out that 2000 liters of blood pass through the kidneys daily for blood cleaning purposes, and he believes it is this high blood flow which is able to wash bacterial toxins from the kidneys into the bloodstream.

The bladder and prostate I don't think receive anywhere near that amount of blood, though I cannot find any specific figures for blood flow through these organs.

So as far as I understand it, that is the rationale for singling out the kidneys as the source of the bacterial toxins he finds in the blood of ME/CFS patients. Though I think Dr Igor Markov would admit that he cannot he 100% sure that the kidneys are the source, and he wants to see more research to be done.

It is also possible that although the bacteria used to make the autovaccines come from the urinary tract, these same bacteria could be living in other regions of the body, like in the intestines, sinuses or nasopharynx, and that the beneficial effect of autovaccine therapy for ME/CFS arises from fighting these bacteria throughout the entire body, not just the kidneys.

@Hip didn't you say your test here was positive for Enterococcus faecalis?

E. faecalis inhabits the gastrointestinal tract. It lives in the gut
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/04/gut-bacteria-outbreak/586780/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterococcus_faecalis

and Pseudomonas aeruginosa?

Intestinal tract is considered the most important reservoir for P. aeruginosa
https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/IAI.00428-10

and Klebsiella pneumonia?

K. pneumonia initially colonizes the intestinal tract
It normally lives in intestines and feces
K. pneumonia infection points to initial colonization in gut microbiome
https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/IAI.70.8.4729-4734.2002
https://www.healthline.com/health/klebsiella-pneumonia
https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/65/2/208/3084729

Your results seem FAR more likely to be from intestinal leakage, rather than kidney leakage

 

[Hip]

E. faecalis inhabits the gastrointestinal tract. It lives in the gut

Yes, as mentioned, it is possible that although the bacteria used to make the autovaccines come from the urinary tract, these same bacteria found in the patient's kidneys could be living in other regions of the body, like in the intestines, sinuses or nasopharynx, and that the beneficial effect of autovaccine therapy for ME/CFS arises from fighting these bacteria throughout the entire body, not just the kidneys.

Dr Markov finds that autovaccine treatment does not affect the balance of the intestinal bacterial flora, but it does affect the balance of kidney bacterial flora, so I believe that is one reason why he thinks it is the kidneys which are causing the problem in ME/CFS. But Dr Markov says that this issue requires additional study.

 

[sometexan84]

Yes, as mentioned, it is possible that although the bacteria used to make the autovaccines come from the urinary tract, these same bacteria found in the patient's kidneys could be living in other regions of the body, like in the intestines, sinuses or nasopharynx, and that the beneficial effect of autovaccine therapy for ME/CFS arises from fighting these bacteria throughout the entire body, not just the kidneys.

Dr Markov finds that autovaccine treatment does not affect the balance of the intestinal bacterial flora, but it does affect the balance of kidney bacterial flora, so I believe that is one reason why he thinks it is the kidneys which are causing the problem in ME/CFS. But Dr Markov says that this issue requires additional study.

Man... I see so many issues w/ this.

BUT, it's good, you're doing good work, I think Markov is doing good work. Stay the course, I can't wait to hear what happens after your autovaccine!

Dr Markov finds that autovaccine treatment does not affect the balance of the intestinal bacterial flora

Why not?

 

[lint7]

The idea that there is dysbiosis in the kidneys implies that the kidneys have a microbiome. I can't find any research indicating that this is true (but maybe I haven't looked hard enough).

Is there any evidence for that?

 

[Hip]

The idea that there is dysbiosis in the kidneys implies that the kidneys have a microbiome. I can't find any research indicating that this is true (but maybe I haven't looked hard enough).

Is there any evidence for that?

You might like to read the Markov summary thread, as that gives a general background on the theory, and covers topics like the kidney microbiome.

Historically the urine and urinary tract have been considered to be normally sterile, but in fact we now know the urinary tract does contain a microbiome (see this paper).