Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Hufsamor]

According to the Markov Clinic’s experience in the diagnostics and treatment of CBIS (CFS/ME) in 4500 children and adults, CBIS is diagnosed in 90-95% of all primary cases of CFS/ME, so diagnosed outside/before the Markov Clinic, and in 95-100% of direct visits to the Markov Clinic with symptoms of CFS/ME. Successful treatment of CBIS (CFS/ME) with 95-97%-efficiency and with full recovery was achieved in all patients diagnosed with CFS/ME.

The treatment sounds logical in many ways, but 95-97% efficiency and full recovery in all patients?

 

[andyguitar]

The treatment sounds logical in many ways, but 95-97% efficiency and full recovery in all patients?

Yes it's claiming a very high success rate. I am going to stay open minded about this treatment option as there is a lot of information to go through.

 

[Judee]

Ken Lassessen posted about this on his website today: https://cfsremission.com/2021/06/01...YCha_kDA1Bp2OXPTo_lRF_vmkPf5NNMybovk23fOlTQCs

I haven't had a chance to read it all; just did a light skim but thought I'd post it anyway.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I don't understand why this should be promising. The paper is redundant and nowhere near a study. We don't know if patients meet the criteria for ME/CFS. Why should auto-vaccines kill the bacteria and the “aggressive antibiotics” didn't? I did not receive AB as a child. Fereshteh would have seen urinary bacterial infections in her multi-omics study in Stanford.

 

[bensmith]

Hm. Well i hope so!

I have crazhed into vart severe and honestly this post is why i come and check pr but i cant believe ut lol. Very funny situation 🐻

The oddest thing, like martin said, is how were there thousands of cured folks not reporting this already? I would have told people the sexond j was cured.

This is my thought as well.

What does this means, results credible but model not credible? So they coukd possible cure but not know how?

And would access to this be difficult?

 

[Alvin2]

Fereshteh would have seen urinary bacterial infections in her multi-omics study in Stanford.

This is why i asked which bacteria, if they are there they can be found by others.

 

[Hip]

Why should auto-vaccines kill the bacteria and the “aggressive antibiotics” didn't?

That's a good question. I'd never heard of autovaccines (more commonly called autogenous vaccines) before reading about Dr Markov's treatment, and so far I have not been able to find much info about them. I am not clear why animals get the benefit of personalized autovaccines to treat their bacterial infections, but not humans.

Obviously autovaccines cannot be used for acute bacteria infections, because these vaccines take several weeks to produce. But it seems like there could be a role in treating chronic persistent bacteria infections such sinus infections or SIBO.


I have had personal experience of trying to get rid of a chronic recurrent kidney / UTI infection with antibiotics, and failing.

I have had a chronic recurrent infection that long predates my ME/CFS. This infection would flare up once every 2 or 3 weeks (marked by a terribly foul smell in my urine for a few days, and dull sensation in the kidney area). But a urine sample bacterial culture taken during a flare up did not find any organisms (via a UK NHS test), so I don't know what is causing this infection.

Once I developed ME/CFS after a viral infection, I found these kidney infection flare ups would substantially worsen my ME/CFS fatigue and brain fog for a few days, until the flare resolved.


I tried many things to permanently cure this chronic recurrent infection, including "nuking" with all sorts of antibiotics. But these antibiotics did nothing other than treat the current flare of the infection; they never eradicated the infection. Oral probiotics helped reduce the frequency of the flares, but again did not eradicate. So antibiotics were not the magic cure for my recurrent kidney infection.

Bear in mind that bacteria have several ways of hiding away from antibiotics, including actually changing form so that they can live inside cells, where they are more protected from antibiotics. So it's not really possible to eradicate a bacterial infection from the body using antibiotics. Antibiotics can address a flare up, but they cannot fully eliminate the bacteria. Thus you are always going to rely on your immune system to keep the infection in check; and I guess that's where these autovaccines may be useful.

 

[Alvin2]

I am not clear why animals get the benefit of personalized autovaccines to treat their bacterial infections, but not humans.

The safety standards for drugs for animals is lower than humans.
I would suspect that autovaccines are too unpredictable to obtain a blanket approval by regulatory agencies. Some bacteria that is still toxic dead would lead to a media frenzy and discredit an entire discipline.

 

[Hip]

Looking through Dr Markov's published work on the autovaccine ME/CFS treatment, I could not find within those 85 pages any results section showing tabulated details of the treatment efficacy for ME/CFS.


However, I did find one section of the document which indicates patients satisfied the CDC Fukuda 1994 criteria for ME/CFS:

Comparing the clinical symptoms observed in adult patients with CBIS with the main 8 symptoms of CFS (which, according to the Definition of 1994, there have to be at least 4 to diagnose CFS), the following should be noted.

Among 2340 adult patients with CBIS at least 4 main symptoms in various combinations were found in all 100% of cases, 5 - in 2153 (92%), 6 - in 1849 (79%), 7 - in 1732 (74%) and all 8 - in 1240 (53%).

This could most likely indicate that under normal circumstances all these patients should be diagnosed with a previously known CFS of unknown origin etiology.

Though reading through the document, there are many cases studies of non-ME/CFS patients, so diagnosis and treatment of this condition which Dr Markov calls Chronic Bacterial Intoxication Syndrome (CBIS) does not seem unique to ME/CFS patients.

The actual diagnosis of CBIS is done according to this protocol:

Bacteriological confirmation of the diagnosis was performed by inoculating morning warm urine three times (three consecutive days) using the appropriate devices/tests Diaslide® DS-101 and DS-105 (Novamed, Israel) with applied nutrient media CLED agar, McConkey agar and chromogenic agar UriSelect (see Report 7).

The toxicological diagnosis was confirmed by a blood test using the “Toxicon” diagnostic system (see Report 8). According to clinical indicators patients underwent instrumental examination: ultrasound, X-ray, MRI and CT, ECG, EEG etc

The diagnosis of CBIS, which had almost the same clinical signs as the previously known CFS, was confirmed by a toxicological blood test using the “Toxicon” diagnostic system developed by a group of Ukrainian scientists and clinicians led by Ukraine's chief pediatric toxicologist Borys S.Sheiman.

Under this program there were examined more than 2000 children and adults diagnosed with CBIS. All patients, without exception, were diagnosed with endotoxicosis, mostly severe, rarely moderate, usually of bacterial origin with computer-programmed confirmation in most cases of a selective vector of toxic lesions of separate organs and systems, which almost coincided with the clinical manifestations of the disease.

The kidney bacteria infection that Dr Markov believes lies behind CBIS he calls nephrodisbacteriosis, and describes it thusly:

Nephrodisbacteriosis© - Is a locally asymptomatic (without features of inflammatory process) long-term focus of chronic bacterial infection in the kidneys, which is usually formed by ascending path and initially leads to the development of distant from kidneys features of CBIS and almost always precedes the debut of the clinically manifest pyelonephritis.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

That's a good question. I'd never heard of autovaccines (more commonly called autogenous vaccines) before reading about Dr Markov's treatment, and so far I have not been able to find much info about them. I am not clear why animals get the benefit of personalized autovaccines to treat their bacterial infections, but not humans.

Obviously autovaccines cannot be used for acute bacteria infections, because these vaccines take several weeks to produce. But it seems like there could be a role in treating chronic persistent bacteria infections such sinus infections or SIBO.


I have had personal experience of trying to get rid of a chronic recurrent kidney / UTI infection with antibiotics, and failing.

I have had a chronic recurrent infection that long predates my ME/CFS. This infection would flare up once every 2 or 3 weeks (marked by a terribly foul smell in my urine for a few days, and dull sensation in the kidney area). But a urine sample bacterial culture taken during a flare up did not find any organisms (via a UK NHS test), so I don't know what is causing this infection.

Once I developed ME/CFS after a viral infection, I found these kidney infection flare ups would substantially worsen my ME/CFS fatigue and brain fog for a few days, until the flare resolved.


I tried many things to permanently cure this chronic recurrent infection, including "nuking" with all sorts of antibiotics. But these antibiotics did nothing other than treat the current flare of the infection; they never eradicated the infection. Oral probiotics helped reduce the frequency of the flares, but again did not eradicate. So antibiotics were not the magic cure for my recurrent kidney infection.

Bear in mind that bacteria have several ways of hiding away from antibiotics, including actually changing form so that they can live inside cells, where they are more protected from antibiotics. So it's not really possible to eradicate a bacterial infection from the body using antibiotics. Antibiotics can address a flare up, but they cannot fully eliminate the bacteria. Thus you are always going to rely on your immune system to keep the infection in check; and I guess that's where these autovaccines may be useful.

And how do you/they explain the metabolic impact? Have I overseen it in the paper?
The funniest thing is when they speculate that there are 80 millions with “CBIS” ... but without giving any link to ME.
Sorry, but that’s one of the worst papers I’ve seen.
i want to see a study or at least some reliable data ...

 

[Alvin2]

Looking through Dr Markov's published work on the autovaccine ME/CFS treatment, I could not find within those 85 pages any results section showing tabulated details of the treatment efficacy for ME/CFS.


However, I did find one section of the document which indicates patients satisfied the CDC Fukuda 1994 criteria for ME/CFS:




Though reading through the document, there are many cases studies of non-ME/CFS patients, so diagnosis and treatment of this condition which Dr Markov calls Chronic Bacterial Intoxication Syndrome (CBIS) does not seem unique to ME/CFS patients.

The actual diagnosis of CBIS is done according to this protocol:






The kidney bacteria infection that Dr Markov believes lies behind CBIS he calls nephrodisbacteriosis, and describes it thusly:
Nephrodisbacteriosis© - Is a locally asymptomatic (without features of inflammatory process) long-term focus of chronic bacterial infection in the kidneys, which is usually formed by ascending path and initially leads to the development of distant from kidneys features of CBIS and almost always precedes the debut of the clinically manifest pyelonephritis.

Thats at least the second copyright symbol i have seen.
Is the goal here to advance science/medicine or collect copyrights

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Thats at least the second copyright symbol i have seen.
Is the goal here to advance science/medicine or collect copyrights

Look at their webpage... you can pay via Western Union and so on

 

[Alvin2]

Look at their webpage... you can pay via Western Union and so on

They need to step up their game to Apple gift cards and Bitcoin.

 

[bensmith]

Looking through Dr Markov's published work on the autovaccine ME/CFS treatment, I could not find within those 85 pages any results section showing tabulated details of the treatment efficacy for ME/CFS.


However, I did find one section of the document which indicates patients satisfied the CDC Fukuda 1994 criteria for ME/CFS:




Though reading through the document, there are many cases studies of non-ME/CFS patients, so diagnosis and treatment of this condition which Dr Markov calls Chronic Bacterial Intoxication Syndrome (CBIS) does not seem unique to ME/CFS patients.

The actual diagnosis of CBIS is done according to this protocol:






The kidney bacteria infection that Dr Markov believes lies behind CBIS he calls nephrodisbacteriosis, and describes it thusly:

thanks hip. Well i guess i hope it works i dunno what to say. I dont think anybody is flying to Ukraine until we know, and he isn’t looking to publish is he?

 

[Hip]

And how do you/they explain the metabolic impact?

I don't think any ME/CFS researcher advancing his own theory provides a full and complete picture of ME/CFS pathophysiology. At best individual researchers provide only a limited partial perspective over ME/CFS.

None of the current theories of ME/CFS (viral infection, gut dysbiosis theory, vagus nerve infection hypothesis, metabolic trap theory, autoimmune theory, immune priming theory, etc) explain how they might create the metabolic impact.

In fact we are not even clear what the impact on energy metabolism is at present, as there is no consensus in the studies.


But I agree that we cannot conclude from the information given to us so far that CBIS has been proven to be the cause of ME/CFS. We would need to see well-conducted studies and clearly written up results first.

However, bacterial endotoxin (LPS) could be playing a role in ME/CFS. Dr Maureen Hanson's study found ME/CFS patients have elevated LPS.

So the idea that the kidney may be pumping LPS and/or exotoxins into the bodies of ME/CFS patients is an interesting one. Especially to people like me who have a recurrent kidney infection.

 

[bensmith]

Maybe some of our ukraine members could keep an ear out for some of those cured.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

It should be very easy to prove with an urine culture ...

 

[bensmith]

Well i hope somebody checks and sees them. Maybe somebody over there could even check it. His claims are outrageously positive.

 

[Hipsman]

It should be very easy to prove with an urine culture ...

Hip said:

I have had a chronic recurrent infection that long predates my ME/CFS. This infection would flare up once every 2 or 3 weeks (marked by a terribly foul smell in my urine for a few days, and dull sensation in the kidney area). But a urine sample bacterial culture taken during a flare up did not find any organisms (via a UK NHS test), so I don't know what is causing this infection.

 

[Hip]

It should be very easy to prove with an urine culture ...

The second quote in this earlier post details how Dr Igor Markov diagnoses a kidney infection using 3 morning urine samples (taken on three consecutive days), with the bacteria cultivated on various types of agar plates.


My own urine bacterial culture test done by the UK NHS was negative, but I only sent them one sample.