Doxycycline as a CCI treatment: low-dose doxycycline inhibits the MMP enzymes which break down collagen and elastin in ligaments

[ChookityPop]

Do we know if CCI is treatable or reversible if the collagen issues are corrected?

Is there a way to correct collagen issues?

 

[Swim15]

Is there a way to correct collagen issues?

Well in theory CFS, in this discussion at least, could be due to abnormal changes in collagen metabolism. So reverse the abnormal changes and theoretically, sure

There are lots of things out there, like growth hormone and anabolics, that increase collagen formation.

That said, will it reverse the CCI if it’s the cause? No clue

 

[Momentum]

What are you eating now? And how did the low dose doxy go? Very interesting. How is that for the gut flora though?

I don't think the doxy helped much, at least based on using receding gums as a measurement. IIRC I took it for at least 2 months, but probably three. No gut changes at such a low dose.

The last 18 months has been one of the most extreme roller coaster of health that I have ever had. And I mean in terms of extreme highs and lows, rapid movement from feeling good, to feeling awful. It has taken an incredible amount of labs, research and experimenting to figure out what is going on. And, although today I'm feeling pretty good, I'm not ready to say I'm cured or even out of the woods. At least I'm getting somewhere.

For me, it seems to boiling down to genetics - and not really anything recognized by US docs. I have issues with B12, folate and some type of collagen problem. Even worse, what is helping, the main stream (faux) science would say shouldn't help and isn't necessary.

Don't mean to be cliff hanger here, but I'm doing several more intensive therapies over the next three weeks and want more information to report on.

For collagen, I've dramatically increased my intake of OSA and it's the thing that helps me the most. I am now making my own OSA water, which equivilant to taking many capsules of Regenemax (For me, although BioSil contains the same ingredient, it's not effective, nor is Orgono Living Silica). So the bio-available silica is not only helpful with collagen, but this biochemist reversed his 90+ year old mother's Alzheimer's since it also removes aluminum. He has a recipe for making your own - much cheaper! He's also found it helpful in stroke, autism, atherosclerosis, MS, etc.


Here's a video:

Since I use Berkey water - I skip the Brita filtration and will eventually have my water mixture tested for heavy metals just to see if the raw silica has any contaminants.

Here's a link to his blog: http://prevent-alzheimers-autism-stroke.blogspot.com/

I've read both of his books. The second one covers everything the first one covers and then some. Worth every dime!
https://www.amazon.com/Silica-Secre...is+Crouse,+Blue&qid=1601234898&s=books&sr=1-1

With our environment, IMHO everyone should be drinking this daily.

More to follow soon
In the meantime, protect your collagen by lowering oxalates and drinking OSA water.

Consider getting your urine methylmalonic acid level tested (it's a B12 test). If your doctor won't order it, you can order it yourself using one of those online labs. I cannot express how important this is for some of you.

 

[ChookityPop]

I have issues with B12, folate and some type of collagen problem.

Consider getting your urine methylmalonic acid level tested (it's a B12 test). If your doctor won't order it, you can order it yourself using one of those online labs. I cannot express how important this is for some of you.

How do you cope with you´re B12 and folate issues? How do you supplement? What does the urine test vs ordinary blood tests?

How do you know you have a collagen problem? I really suspect this is the case for me too. Im sticking with a nose to tail carnivore diet. Have you tried to up your intake of collagen? Or is the theory that if we have some kind of collagen issue that collagen supplemantation wont do nothing. I know people with eds say this and I suspect I have some kind of connective tissue disorders but I will try to up my dose anyways. And try some growth hormone releasing peptides etc.

 

[choochoo]

Looks like aloe vera as well as neem are MMP-2 and MMP-9 inhibitors:

This in vitro study found :

aloe vera inhibited:
MMP-2 by 20%
MMP-9 by 20%

neem inhibited:
MMP-2 by 54%
MMP-9 by 53%

doxycycline inhibited:
MMP-2 by 82%
MMP-9 by 83%

And another in vitro study found:

doxycycline inhibited:
MMP-9 by 59%

triphala inhibited:
MMP-9 by 77%

I will add these to the original post.

@Hip
How about minocycline? What are your thoughts regarding this antibiotic for CCI and CFS in general?

 

[Hip]

How about minocycline?

I have not looked into it. Doxycycline is the one prescribed for MMP inhibition.

 

[choochoo]

Minocycline, a semi‐synthetic, lipophilic, tetracycline‐class antibiotic, has been shown to be a potent MMP‐9 inhibitor in animal stroke models 9 and humans with ischaemic stroke 10. However, its role in MMP‐9 inhibition after ICH is unclear.Sep 20, 2017

 

[frozenborderline]

Well the tetracycline class of antibiotics are good broad-spectrum MMP inhibitors, with doxycycline being one of the most potent inhibitors (doxycycline is also a reasonably safe antibiotic). Doxycycline inhibits MMP-1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 12 and

So do u know if the other tetracycline like minocycline help too? I know minocycline is otc in mexico and I am wanting to take a Mexico trip. I wonder if doxy is otc there ...

 

[Hip]

So do u know if the other tetracycline like minocycline help too? I know minocycline is otc in mexico and I am wanting to take a Mexico trip. I wonder if doxy is otc there ...

This paper says minocycline is actually strong than doxycycline for MMP-9 inhibition:

Minocycline showed the highest potency in MMP-9 inhibition (P < 0.0001), while tetracycline was found to be more potent than doxycycline in MMP-9 inhibition

 

[frozenborderline]

This paper says minocycline is actually strong than doxycycline for MMP-9 inhibition:

Whoa. Okay. Good stuff. But mmps9 is not the most important , correct?

 

[Hip]

Okay. Good stuff. But mmps9 is not the most important , correct?

Of course that was an in vitro study, so the final in vivo efficacy of these antibiotics would also depend on their bioavailability and protein binding. But a quick check shows that these are more or less equal, which suggests minocycline would be more potent in vivo too.


MMP-9 tends to be the most talked about MMP, and to my knowledge it is the only MMP that you can be tested for by commercial lab tests.

But doxycycline inhibits a range of MMPs, so I would guess minocycline will do likewise.

MMP-9 features in Dr Shoemaker's mold-induced illness (CIRS, chronic inflammatory response syndrome), and Shoemaker uses a no-amylose diet to bring MMP-9 down if your levels test high. I can't remember why MMP-9 is linked to mold illness.

 

[frozenborderline]

I convinced a doctor to write doxy or minocycline for me and maybe do prp (if I can afford it) coinciding with it ...

 

[frozenborderline]

Took first dose

 

[FlexToPex]

Took first dose

Hi Frozenborderline,

I appreciate it's early days for your regarding Doxycycline, but can you please keep me in the loop with how you progress and whether it has any effect? I have developed ME-like symptoms from what I believe is an acquired connective tissue disorder courtesy of damage to my collagen and elastin caused by Minoxidil - it's an odd situation, I appreciate. Anyway, since connective tissue degradation is a feature of my disease, I think there's a good chance that Doxycycline could help me, but I'm having trouble obtaining it. It would be really handy to hear some stories from people who have benefited to help me get a prescription from my doctor.

All best,

Flex

 

[frozenborderline]

Hi Frozenborderline,

I appreciate it's early days for your regarding Doxycycline, but can you please keep me in the loop with how you progress and whether it has any effect? I have developed ME-like symptoms from what I believe is an acquired connective tissue disorder courtesy of damage to my collagen and elastin caused by Minoxidil - it's an odd situation, I appreciate. Anyway, since connective tissue degradation is a feature of my disease, I think there's a good chance that Doxycycline could help me, but I'm having trouble obtaining it. It would be really handy to hear some stories from people who have benefited to help me get a prescription from my doctor.

All best,

Flex

My trial isnt likely to be conclusive as I'm just trying to prevent further damage. And I haven't had upright imaging to check for damage lower down relative to my first scan. It's just sort of a prophylactic , I don't expect it to actually reverse any damage, and I can't get out to the lab often enough to track mmp-9 regularly

 

[frozenborderline]

@Hip @JenB @jeff_w did you guys know mmp-9 not only breaks down connective tissue but raises brain glutamate?

This would explain a lot...

Also I think we ought to talk about how things other than mmps affect connective tissue. Tgf beta has long been known to be high in ppl with me/cfs, or according to shoemaker, in ppl with mold illness. Not only that, it damages connective tissue but also specifically is seen in marfans syndrome, and the heart problems in marfans are sometimes treated with losartan for this reason. An ARB. Then theres tryptase of course ... I have hereditary alpha tryptasemia as well as an mcas diagnosis . I wonder what percentage of people with me/cfs have this

 

[frozenborderline]

I'm having trouble obtaining it. It would be really handy to hear some stories from people who have benefited to help me get a prescription from my doctor.

There are many ways to obtain doxycycline without a doctors help, so I wouldn't wait until you hear some good stories on a forum and count on that to help get the script. There are actual studies , you know. On it helping with connective tissue problems and regeneration along with prp. But you could just use one of the pharmacies @Hip recommends. Or maybe even get the fish version on amazon

 

[Swim15]

I just want to add that using doxy for CCI is wildly irresponsible IMO. Antibiotics do so much damage to our microbiomes and immune systems and given that ME/CFS patients already have a lot of issues there, it’s like adding water to one fire and gas on another in the same room

 

[Hip]

I just want to add that using doxy for CCI is wildly irresponsible IMO. Antibiotics do so much damage to our microbiomes and immune systems and given that ME/CFS patients already have a lot of issues there, it’s like adding water to one fire and gas on another in the same room

The low dose of doxycycline taken for anti-MMP effects is below the dose level that has antibacterial effects, and this low dose been shown in studies to have no effect on the microbiome composition after 9 months (see study in the first post).

But certainly long term heavy use of antibiotics has sometimes made ME/CFS patients permanently worse (although has helped others).

 

[Swim15]

The low dose of doxycycline taken for anti-MMP effects is below the dose level that has antibacterial effects, and this low dose been shown in studies to have no effect on the microbiome composition after 9 months (see study in the first post).

But certainly long term heavy use of antibiotics has sometimes made ME/CFS patients permanently worse (although has helped others).

My bad then, I should have looked at the study first: will check it out. Thanks Hip