Doxycycline as a CCI treatment: low-dose doxycycline inhibits the MMP enzymes which break down collagen and elastin in ligaments

[ChookityPop]

I read that regular Tetracycline was a little bit less effective than Doxy? Im doing 300mg Tetracycline a day. I wonder if that would be too high of a dose in terms of messing with the gut. If so I need to get a smaller dose.

 

[frozenborderline]

I just want to add that using doxy for CCI is wildly irresponsible IMO. Antibiotics do so much damage to our microbiomes and immune systems and given that ME/CFS patients already have a lot of issues there, it’s like adding water to one fire and gas on another in the same room

Nope. Wrong

 

[Momentum]

@Hip @JenB @jeff_w did you guys know mmp-9 not only breaks down connective tissue but raises brain glutamate?

This would explain a lot...

Also I think we ought to talk about how things other than mmps affect connective tissue. Tgf beta has long been known to be high in ppl with me/cfs, or according to shoemaker, in ppl with mold illness.

Well, the glutamate issue is interesting. I've had such a problem with it all of my life.
A while back I tried 25mg/day of doxy and it didn't do much so I didn't continue. I have EDS, MCAS, IIH and ME (and a host of other things).
I have mannitol on order for the IIH because I get some relief for IIH from Diamox (would rather be on mannitol).

The thing that has helped me the most with EDS is lowering my oxalates.

In the last few months, I've really been working on my multifaceted headache. Proper exercise is important, but doesn't deal with it all. I've tried some glutamate scavangers, Pyruvate and OAA (stabilized oxaloacetate), some nootropic stacks like noopept+uridine, and even methyline blue (oral and nasal) and electrolyte supplements of varied mixes.

For me the OAA seems to clear some headaches. I'm just not sure if it's full of oxalates?

I think the IIH and the glutamate are my largest problems at this time.

 

[ChrisD]

I have just started Periostat 2x20mg a day on the recommendation of an M.E. specialist in Europe, primarily for Neuroinflammation/Microglia but it seems like a good fit for me also as I have recurring UTI + Lyme, Bartonella, Mycoplasma, Coxsackie etc. So hoping that it provides a constant antibiotic effect that may help with these too.

 

[hapl808]

Curious to hear responses about this. I've only done normal antibiotic dosages of doxy, but as I have connective tissue problems and glutamate issues, I'm interested in trying it.

 

[pattismith]

Doxycycline has shown interest in the treatment of periodontitis/alveolar bone resorption as well (as a MMP9 inhibitor/anti-inflammatory).

In this 2020 study, they found an association/correlation between periodontitis and some virus:

https://bmcoralhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12903-020-01188-2

Results​

The detection rates of EBV, torque teno virus (TTV), torque teno mini virus (TTMV) and torque teno midi virus (TTMDV) were significantly higher in the Agressive Periodontitis and Chronic Periodontitis groups compared to the healthy group (all P < 0.01).

A statistically significant association was found between EBV, TTV and TTMV virus load and periodontitis (all P < 0.05).

Participants infected with EBV showed significantly higher infection rates and higher virus loads of TTV and TTMV than the EBV-negative group (all P < 0.05).

The coexistence rates of EBV and anelloviruses and the coexistence of three HTTVs were significantly higher in AP and CP groups (all P < 0.01).

Conclusions​

Collectively, results obtained in this study suggest that HTTVs and the coexistence of EBV and HTTVs in particular, may be associated with periodontitis. Possible mechanisms of the interaction between herpesviruses and anelloviruses in the context of periodontitis require further investigation.


(NB Anellovirus are common human virus not associated with any disease)

 

[Judee]

I have mannitol on order for the IIH because I get some relief for IIH from Diamox (would rather be on mannitol).

Did the mannitol help at all @Momentum?

 

[Hip]

What relevance does you post have to the topic of this thread, @datadragon?

 

[almost]

So if virally-induced matrix metalloproteinases such as MMP-2, MMP-8, MMP-9 and MMP-12 might be causing the weakened ligaments of CCI, is there anything that can be done about it?

I see there is a test for MMP-9 at least. Has anyone here tested their levels before and after attempting one of the strategies here?

 

[Hawk1]

Hi all, sorry for replying to an old thread but I was confused by one statement made in the original post by Hip :
"For those ME/CFS patients positive for craniocervical instability (CCI) and/or atlantoaxial instability (AAI), treatment with low-dose doxycycline might possibly help strengthen the ligaments"

I understand if immune cells secrete MMPs in response to a virus that result in collagen degradation in ligaments, it can result in CCI/AAI, but how can preventing that secretion of MMPs via Doxycycline strengthen the ligament again? Since the ligament has already been broken down, surely doxycycline can only prevent further degradation from happening, can you please explain the strengthening part?

Thanks Hip !

 

[Hip]

but how can preventing that secretion of MMPs via Doxycycline strengthen the ligament again?

Nothing in the body is static, everything is in a dynamic state of turnover. Processes that break down substances are usually balanced by other processes which build up or repair those same substances. So if you inhibit the break down process, you shift the dynamic balance to towards build up and repair.

In the case of connective tissue, fibroblast cells embedded in the tissue secrete collagen and elastin to build up the tissue. Thus these fibroblasts will help rebuild and strengthen the connective tissue if the break down processes can be reduced.

Though whether MMP enzymes secreted by immune cells are the cause of the ligament connective tissue weakening in CCI of course is not known (I've not seen any studies that have found elevated MMP enzymes in patients with infection-triggered CCI). If they are not, then MMP inhibitors like doxycycline may not help CCI much.

It's interesting that fibroblasts can become chronically infected with coxsackievirus B, a virus often found in ME/CFS. So I wonder whether such infected fibroblasts might malfunction because of the presence of the virus within them, leading to reduced secretion collagen and elastin, which might then cause connective tissue weakening and CCI. In other words, CCI might not be due to an overactive connective tissue break down, but by underactive connective tissue repair.

If underactive repair is the problem in CCI, then another speculative approach to treating CCI might be drugs or supplements that stimulate collagen and elastin secretion and connective tissue repair. Such substances include: the peptide BPC 157 (body protection compound 157) and the peptide TB-500 (thymosin beta 4). These are available to buy without prescription at peptide sellers such as www.peptidesciences.com

 

[Hawk1]

Wow, Thanks for that detailed response Hip !

Much Appreciated

 

[godlovesatrier]

I've restarted this today as post COVID my head is not right and I'm convinced I have either symptoms similair to concussion syndrome or some sort of mild brain injury could also just be inflammation of the spinal cord. I've had ME for eight years in march so it's hard to remember back to how symptoms felt in the very early days but it's impossible it's just exacerbation of that.

I took 25mg of doxycycline anyway tonight (pharmacy gave me 50mg on alternate days because there stupid so I split the dose and intend to take 25 a day) and I feel like a different person. My cognition feels vastly brighter and less perturbed. The issue I'm having with moving objects and eye tracking is still present however but maybe it'll heal itself with assistance in lowering general neuro inflammation. I also read a study showing it does help for reduce spinal cord inflammation in a spinal cord injury model.

Less nasty than abilify if it works the same and possibly easier to get. Doubt tolerance builds to it either. I'll report back.

 

[hapl808]

I took 25mg of doxycycline anyway tonight (pharmacy gave me 50mg on alternate days because there stupid so I split the dose and intend to take 25 a day) and I feel like a different person. My cognition feels vastly brighter and less perturbed. The issue I'm having with moving objects and eye tracking is still present however but maybe it'll heal itself with assistance in lowering general neuro inflammation. I also read a study showing it does help for reduce spinal cord inflammation in a spinal cord injury model.

Please do continue to report. I've never done low dose doxy, only the full version - but each time would get an initial clearing of brain fog. That's when I was less severe, though. Would love to find something to improve my brain fog and my threshold for cognitively triggered PEM.

 

[godlovesatrier]

I think I may have h pylori as well and that's why my stomach keeps going into a meltdown every few months but especially post covid/post vax. Ironically all of the post vax symptoms I've had before I now have post covid, pain in my shoudlerblades/shoulders/joints etc. I think that the spike protein from vax/covid drives inflammation in the intestine and makes it much worse, allowing h pylori an opening to cause damage. As h pylori causes larger problems in western socieities. In theory a high fibre diet should help by soothing the mucousal tissues. Hence replicating a more eastern or tribal diet. I need to get a referal for tests though. I mention this because my brainfog I think is mostly driven by this inflamamtion in my stomach/gut which has got much worse since covid vaccines began, but especially worse in the last 2 years. Stress is also a factor in viral replication.

Low dose doxy does seem to help. I think a single dose lasts about 10 hours. Seems to wear off after that. But let's see if repeated doses last a bit longer. So while it may help with neuroinflammation it won't do anything for intestinal inflammation caused by something else - I think h pylori may be behind a lot of other bowel conditions, entereoviruses may even anger h pylori for all we know.

So I'll let you know how I get on.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Day 4 on the low dose doxy. It definitely helps, first day back at work I had PENE twice, once in the morning and once in the afternoon. Normal brainfog where I just can't think or even get my words out is actually pretty non existent right now. But the PENE which means my eyes don't sync up with my brain is pretty bad when it comes on.

When I take the doxy I do feel better but inflammation is so high that I don't think it is enough. I'll be starting ldn in the next few days that will prob kick my arse but I definitely need another way to lower inflammation.

Nimodipine and amisulpride/aripiprazole are other good drugs to lower neuro inflammation and get to a good state. So far I am on valtrex, larozoide acetate, low dose doxy soon to add the ldn and then after that if my anxiety won't calm down low dose amisulpride.

So that should mean taking 3 anti inflammatories. I hope.

 

[Marcelo92]

Hey there!

Do you guys think this could work as topical use (directly on the neck)?

Curious if it would or not and why

Thanks!