Curcumin, caryophyllene, and the cannabinoid connection

[CSMLSM]

MODERATOR NOTE: THE FIRST 30 POSTS IN THIS THREAD HAVE BEEN MOVED FROM 'My fatigue is gone. My poisoned feeling, gone. PEM, what PEM?'


Hi this should make things clearer

The cannabinoid connection
In a 2019 meta-analysis with 531 patients diagnosed with major depressive disorder, curcumin showed a statistically significant decrease in depressive and anxiety symptoms. Researchers concluded that the tolerability and impressive results call for more studies to evaluate whether curcumin could be a validated addition to the standard of care in this patient population.
Like other spices such as black pepper, cinnamon, and cloves, curcumin is rich in terpene, B-caryophyllene. Terpenes are compounds that provide plants their aroma, like fresh pine from pinene, tropical mango from myrcene, or soothing lavender from linalool, as well as a distinct set of therapeutic benefits. These compounds are known to interact with the endocannabinoid system like their cannabinoid counterparts. In particular, B-caryophyllene selectively binds to cannabinoid receptor type 2 (CB2), associated with immunity, demonstrating the potential role of curcumin in our protective shield against pathogens causing allergic rhinitis.
Studies reveal that even if you consume a reasonably high dose of curcumin, it has very low bioavailability. This poor absorption indicates this in the small intestine and its rapid metabolization in the liver. Research is inconclusive whether curcumin could work in synergy with other B-caryophyllene, which contains compounds like black pepper. Certain media outlets and supplement companies boast the improved absorption of curcumin, but more clinical studies are needed to determine the relationship between the two. Researchers on the quest to discover how to improve curcumin's dismal bioavailability are looking at how it has been used in Ayurveda, emphasizing the entire plant rather than just one component.

I use caryophyllene (formerly known as Beta-caryophyllene) to treat my ME/CFS and I am almost completely normal now.
You have to bypass the liver so vaporisation I used at first. I now use more effective and practical subligual drops.
Please ask questions

 

[Hip]

I use caryophyllene (formerly known as Beta-caryophyllene) to treat my ME/CFS and I am almost completely normal now.

Are you saying that you achieved major improvements from caryophyllene applied sublingually? How are you obtaining caryophyllene, from an essential oil, or from pure caryophyllene?

I notice you can buy caryophyllene oil at a number of places: here, here, here, here and here.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I use caryophyllene (formerly known as Beta-caryophyllene) to treat my ME/CFS and I am almost completely normal now.

Some new cannibis products at the local medical dispensary is heavily promoting caryophyllene. So certain strains of marijuana contain more of this terpene.

The owner of this dispensary is really impressed with caryophyllene. There is some research being done on it, let me go forth and see if I can locate this research. It was funded by our state government.

 

[CSMLSM]

Some new cannibis products at the local medical dispensary is heavily promoting caryophyllene. So certain strains of marijuana contain more of this terpene.

The owner of this dispensary is really impressed with caryophyllene. There is some research being done on it, let me go forth and see if I can locate this research. It was funded by our state government.

Hi Rufous McKinney it is nice to meet you, my name is Daniel.
I am very impressed with it, have been for over 10 years and been searching for a source that is available and affordable. I I have done that.
I am however new to online communication and forums (this is my first). I am restricted by rules so I will not tell you what you should do, but rather tell you how I treat myself for educational purposes. I hope moderator oks this message I am very new.
Found in cannabis yes, but extremely expensive way to have access, plus many other unknown variables to take into account due to the make up of cannabis.
caryophyllene is a selective CB2 receptor agonist and is able to inactivate adaptive immune system stimulation due to CB2 receptors on B cells, other immune cells and microglial cells. it prevents the cytokine storm and prevents PEM because of this.
This is as close to an eitiological fix as I can get. underlying EBV (or other similar viruses) are driving the issue.
I am unsure if this can cure but I am sure it is an effective management treatment.
I am near normal. I started taking this specifically on the 9/2/22.
I was sort of managing a quite good recovery with CBD ect. But like in the film Awakenings, the affect was fading.
9/2/22 was an amazing morning I only taken it the night before sleep and had actually had to vaporise it to bypass the liver, figured out sublingual because it was not practical.
Anyone can make this medicine, should be an option for all very cheap atm relatively.
Approx £70 for 2-3 years medicine. Not including things like containers and pippets ect.
Copaiba oil is what you might want to look for. The lab results sent to me by the manufacturer says its just over 40% caryophyllene and very little of similar molecules not in high amount or of any real consequence.
1/16 ratio with fractionated oil (I got coconut) done!
I hope this helps

Daniel

 

[Johannes]

"...caryophyllene is a selective CB2 receptor agonist and is able to inactivate adaptive immune system stimulation due to CB2 receptors on B cells, other immune cells and microglial cells. it prevents the cytokine storm and prevents PEM because of this."

"9/2/22 was an amazing morning I only taken it the night before sleep and had actually had to vaporise it to bypass the liver, figured out sublingual because it was not practical."


Interesting because there are plenty of people writing here who have tried cannabis for CFS and it hasn't help other than with improved sleep and mood. I have red many of their comments.

How many drops per day you use? I might try it since it is available where I live.

BUT, I am unable to use for example black pepper (to which copaiba oils flavor seem to be referred to) or any other spices because my bowel will inflammate really badly (proven with colonoscopy) and I get fever from them, if I try to use more than a few days. It is painfull too. So, you mentioned elsewhere that you were like me, as sick as I am. Then how could you start using that strong spice-like product? I have tried almost 200 different supplements and plenty of medicines and spices and non of them can I use because of my bowel. Not even a small drop. Maybe vaporizing it first helped you to tolerate it somehow easing your bowel problems?

I doubt I would not be sensitive to its vapours through lungs mucous membrane either, because I have tried to inhale vaporized medicines and they have irritated my mucos membraned a lot causing mucos and difficulties to breathe as well as pain in lungs and throat. The same happened with many different eye drops. They badly irritated my eyes and lacrimal ducts. So I haven't been able to use eye drops and inhaled medicines.

One might think that what about if I put it on my skin. Then maybe I don't get bowel problems. Wrong. I have tried pure vitamin D in olive oil for my skin and my bowel inflammated. I tried pain killers through my skin and my bowel inflammated. I have tried aromatic oils spread to my skin and my bowel got inflammated. Not unusual with pain killers atleast, because the product info says some get similar symptoms to their bowel from it.

But maybe one could get help from copaiba oil as bowel is full of CB reseptors, both type of them, I just red.

What do you mean by: bypass the liver? In order this product to go to your CB receptors it must go to all over you body, to every cell, right? There is no other way to do that but in blood, through veins. Blood circulates through your liver no matter what you do. So how can you bypass your liver?

Thanks for your answers.

 

[GlassCannonLife]

Hi this should make things clearer

The cannabinoid connection
In a 2019 meta-analysis with 531 patients diagnosed with major depressive disorder, curcumin showed a statistically significant decrease in depressive and anxiety symptoms. Researchers concluded that the tolerability and impressive results call for more studies to evaluate whether curcumin could be a validated addition to the standard of care in this patient population.
Like other spices such as black pepper, cinnamon, and cloves, curcumin is rich in terpene, B-caryophyllene. Terpenes are compounds that provide plants their aroma, like fresh pine from pinene, tropical mango from myrcene, or soothing lavender from linalool, as well as a distinct set of therapeutic benefits. These compounds are known to interact with the endocannabinoid system like their cannabinoid counterparts. In particular, B-caryophyllene selectively binds to cannabinoid receptor type 2 (CB2), associated with immunity, demonstrating the potential role of curcumin in our protective shield against pathogens causing allergic rhinitis.
Studies reveal that even if you consume a reasonably high dose of curcumin, it has very low bioavailability. This poor absorption indicates this in the small intestine and its rapid metabolization in the liver. Research is inconclusive whether curcumin could work in synergy with other B-caryophyllene, which contains compounds like black pepper. Certain media outlets and supplement companies boast the improved absorption of curcumin, but more clinical studies are needed to determine the relationship between the two. Researchers on the quest to discover how to improve curcumin's dismal bioavailability are looking at how it has been used in Ayurveda, emphasizing the entire plant rather than just one component.

I use caryophyllene (formerly known as Beta-caryophyllene) to treat my ME/CFS and I am almost completely normal now.
You have to bypass the liver so vaporisation I used at first. I now use more effective and practical subligual drops.
Please ask questions

Isn't this talking about curcumin rather than cumin though? Did I miss something?

 

[Johannes]

@CSMLSM You are talking about immunity effects of CB receptor binding but there may be even more important biochemical reaction, involving calsium ion-channels and CB receptors. The problem with ion-channels is thought to be caused by gene mutations found in CFS patients.

See page 19 from the following, concerning the effects on CB binding and calsium ion-channels.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5075023/

Low dose Naltrexone (LDN) causes similar reaction to for exampleT-cells in CFS patients.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.02545/full

CFS patients have problems with previous ion-channels. Because of this cells don't get enough calsium into them and that causes problems with energy production of mitochondria. Also some other nutrients have problems to go through cell membranes affecting energy production. CB blocking normalises calsium ion-channels to work normally allowing more calsium inside cells, in the study T-cells.

So maybe the reason Beta-caryophyllene work is not only because it helps with immune reactions, but other reasons. LND has improved many CFS patients life a lot.

 

[CSMLSM]

"...caryophyllene is a selective CB2 receptor agonist and is able to inactivate adaptive immune system stimulation due to CB2 receptors on B cells, other immune cells and microglial cells. it prevents the cytokine storm and prevents PEM because of this."

"9/2/22 was an amazing morning I only taken it the night before sleep and had actually had to vaporise it to bypass the liver, figured out sublingual because it was not practical."


Interesting because there are plenty of people writing here who have tried cannabis for CFS and it hasn't help other than with improved sleep and mood. I have red many of their comments.

How many drops per day you use? I might try it since it is available where I live.

it is required as needed you are taking control of shutting down adaptive immunity you must be carefull somewhat. More at first less as time goes on. Variable is the answer really.

BUT, I am unable to use for example black pepper (to which copaiba oils flavor seem to be referred to) or any other spices because my bowel will inflammate really badly (proven with colonoscopy) and I get fever from them, if I try to use more than a few days. It is painfull too. So, you mentioned elsewhere that you were like me, as sick as I am. Then how could you start using that strong spice-like product? I have tried almost 200 different supplements and plenty of medicines and spices and non of them can I use because of my bowel. Not even a small drop. Maybe vaporizing it first helped you to tolerate it somehow easing your bowel problems?

Caryophyllene has been touted and research for Crohns with positive result last I checked sometime ago.

It is a very mild essential oil, its very interesting you feel as I did exactly and worried about this very thing because of the association with black pepper and spices. Copaiba comes from a tree bark like maple syrup does can you eat maple syrup?

Caryophyllene is passed by the FDA and EU food agency as a food additive and classed as generally very safe.


You probably eat it often but not in high enough amounts in your diet already.


I doubt I would not be sensitive to its vapours through lungs mucous membrane either, because I have tried to inhale vaporized medicines and they have irritated my mucos membraned a lot causing mucos and difficulties to breathe as well as pain in lungs and throat. The same happened with many different eye drops. They badly irritated my eyes and lacrimal ducts. So I haven't been able to use eye drops and inhaled medicines.

One might think that what about if I put it on my skin. Then maybe I don't get bowel problems. Wrong. I have tried pure vitamin D in olive oil for my skin and my bowel inflammated. I tried pain killers through my skin and my bowel inflammated. I have tried aromatic oils spread to my skin and my bowel got inflammated. Not unusual with pain killers atleast, because the product info says some get similar symptoms to their bowel from it.

But maybe one could get help from copaiba oil as bowel is full of CB2 reseptors, both type of them, I just red.

What do you mean by: bypass the liver? In order this product to go to your CB2 receptors it must go to all over you body, to every cell, right? There is no other way to do that but in blood, through veins. Blood circulates through your liver no matter what you do. So how can you bypass your liver?

In order for the molecule Caryophyllene to reach your brain/nervous system, it must bypass the liver or it will be degraded.

3 routes are possible
1-intranasal
2-through the lungs
3-sublingually

Thanks for your answers.

Your welcome

Daniel

 

[CSMLSM]

@CSMLSM You are talking about immunity effects of CB receptor binding but there may be even more important biochemical reaction, involving calsium ion-channels and CB receptors which is thought to be caused by gene mutations found in CFS patients. See page 19 from the following, concerning the effects on CB binding and calsium ion-channels.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5075023/

Low dose Naltrexone causes similar reaction to for exampleT-cells in CFS patients.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.02545/full

CFS patients have problems with previous ion-channels. Because of this cells don't get enough calsium into them and that causes all problems with energy production of mitochondria. Also some other nutrients have problems to go through cell membranes affecting energy production. CB blocking normalises calsium ion-channels to work normally allowing more calsium inside cells, in the study T-cells.

So maybe the reason Beta-caryophyllene work is not only in immune reactions.

The Endogenous Cannabionod System is actually responsible for regulating calcium ion channels, look it up cool stuff.
Like many things in the human body

Daniel

 

[CSMLSM]

Isn't this talking about curcumin rather than cumin though? Did I miss something?

From wiki,

Curcumin, a bright yellow chemical produced by the turmeric plant, is approved as a food additive by the World Health Organization, European Parliament, and United States Food and Drug Administration.[4]

Daniel

 

[Johannes]

Your welcome

Daniel

Would CBD oil do the same trick?

 

[CSMLSM]

Would CBD oil do the same trick?

If you have ever seen the film Awakenings.
Fiction-
Awakenings is a 1990 American drama film based on Oliver Sacks's 1973 memoir of the same name. It tells the story of a fictional character, neurologist Dr. Malcolm Sayer, who is based on Sacks and played by Robin Williams. In 1969, he discovered beneficial effects of the drug L-Dopa. He administers it to catatonic patients who survived the 1917–1928 epidemic of encephalitis lethargica. Leonard Lowe (played by Robert de Niro) and the rest of the patients are awakened after decades and have to deal with a new life in a new time. The film was nominated for three Academy Awards.

Non-fiction
Awakenings is a 1973 non-fiction book by Oliver Sacks. It recounts the life histories of those who had been victims of the 1920s encephalitis lethargica epidemic.[2] Sacks chronicles his efforts in the late 1960s to help these patients at the Beth Abraham Hospital (now Beth Abraham Center for Rehabilitation and Nursing[3]) in the Bronx, New York. The treatment used the then-new drug L-DOPA.
In 1982, Sacks wrote:

I have become much more optimistic than I was when I […] wrote Awakenings, for there has been a significant number of patients who, following the vicissitudes of their first years on L-DOPA, came to do – and still do – extremely well. Such patients have undergone an enduring awakening, and enjoy possibilities of life which had been impossible, unthinkable, before the coming of L-DOPA.[4]​

CBD ect will end like that. This is becuse CBD increases the endogenous cannabinoids in our bodies like SSRI do with serotonin. There is a limit to this as receptors in the endogenous cannabinoid system adapt to increase in endo cannabinoids- essentially tolerance.

Caryophyllene is a selective CB2 receptor agonist. This problem with CBD should not exist and in fact is suprior in effect to the CBD.

I was able to come off of Duloxitine due to CBD acting on alot of the same pathways so I would suggest for people starting out maybe start with CBD and then transition to Caryophyllene. In combination with CBD this should be effective for anxiety and stress sufferers that require meds. Just my opinion from my own experiences.

In time I will present evidence as others start to take notice of my information and I and more recovered as my recovery is continuing still and amazing me as it happens.

The way I see this is on the 9th Feb 2022 I got my life back. I had my awakening so to speak, fully.

Daniel

 

[Tammy]

Are you saying that you achieved major improvements from caryophyllene applied sublingually? How are you obtaining caryophyllene, from an essential oil, or from pure caryophyllene?

@CSMLSM I have the same questions as above member

 

[CSMLSM]

Hi Tammy it is nice to meet you, my name is Daniel.

I have had amazing results and yes sublingually.

You could vaporise or make an intranasal. Sublingual is fine, simple to make, quick and easy to use. Vaporisation is not practical.

From Copaiba essential oil. What I have is apparently 40+ percent Caryophyllene.

Copaiba is from tree sap like maple syrup.

here is the lab results sent to me when I asked the manufacturer.

Daniel

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Hi @Rufous McKinney it is nice to meet you, my name is Daniel.

Hello @Daniel! I see its over here we were discussing Caryophyllene ..I could not get the search engine to find the word, I probably spelled it wrong. We should do a thread just on that.

This is as close to an eitiological fix as I can get. underlying EBV (or other similar viruses) are driving the issue.
I am unsure if this can cure but I am sure it is an effective management treatment.

From my perspective, this is likely one of the key active ingredients which contribute to cannabis being helpful for some aspects of ME management. I do not believe it is a cure. However that might depend upon what stage one is in, could also tie into subtypes, etc. LDN helped me, didn't help some others.

Interesting because there are plenty of people writing here who have tried cannabis for CFS and it hasn't help other than with improved sleep and mood. I have red many of their comments.

I"ve been surprised- that few people seem to discuss how it specifically helps them.

Its been listed around here as a PEM buster, but how that works isn't 'clear to me. I still have PEM. Maybe it makes it less bad, maybe it would be far worse?

I have a horrific sore throat...most of the time.

I smoke a bit of cannabiis and my sore throat gets better. So that logical , right? No its not logical,. Its crazy. But in my case, I've tried drops, CBD, THC, it doesn't touch this sore throat which is quite awful. Eating it hasn't worked for me, ever.

I used to smoke cigarettes, back when we were teenage delinquents. I managed to quit (yup there I was nauseated beyond belief 40 years ago). I've never had the kind of coughs or lung things I"d get, back then when I smoked some. So marijuana smoke is VERY different from cigarette smoke, I"ve never had bronchitis, for instance, ever since.

I am not making any medical recommendations to others, I am merely describing what has helped me manage my situation so I can tolerate it.

Now I understand some peoples bodies are even more picky and sensitive than mine, and I'm sorry it must be so hard when so many things make you immediately sick like that.

curcumin rather than cumin

Curcumin= the bright yellow stuff= the thing in turmeric, which is a bright yellow root.

Cumin= the Mexican spice, cumin seeds ground are a brown color.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

The Endogenous Cannabionod System is actually responsible for regulating calcium ion channels

and those channels may be part of what conveys "energetic information"...as in when you introduce an acupuncture needle into a point, it stimulates a conveyance. That flows thru the body via these channels.

This is theoretical.

 

[CSMLSM]

From my perspective, this is likely one of the key active ingredients which contribute to cannabis being helpful for some aspects of ME management. I do not believe it is a cure. However that might depend upon what stage one is in, could also tie into subtypes, etc. LDN helped me, didn't help some others.

This molecule allows you to affect your immune system throughout your body.

Shutting down adaptive immune responses that are part of a dysfunction caused by underlying latent infections that drive this immune response in order to persist in us- latency.

I have a working theory of how I could cure myself but without trying it first I am reluctant to say anything. With passage of time we should know as people hopefully start to try this for themselves. I like to stick to reality as much as possible when dealing with science if you know what I mean, I dont like to be wrong or say something incorrect, science sort of demands it as well.

People dont talk because of the stigma and associations with lazyness (false nonsense). You havent got ME your just a lazy stoner, sums it up basically.

THC binds weakly to the CB1 and CB2 receptors.

CBD does not directly bind to these receptors but others and also work to increase the natural Endogenous Cannabinoids we make ourselves, such as Anandamide and 2-Arachidonoylglycerol (2-AG), much like how SSRI`s help increase the levels of serotonin.

CBD at least at first should be used along with Caryophyllene , I have found it to be great for depression and anxiety and was able to come off Duloxitine because of CBD. There is a great product that is tested to pharma standards and you get what you pay for precisely not random amounts, the company is called dragonfly this stuff.
Dragonfly CBD Cannabidiol Oil 1000mg 10ml | CBD | Boots

 

[CSMLSM]

I smoke a bit of cannabiis and my sore throat gets better. So that logical , right? No its not logical,. Its crazy. But in my case, I've tried drops, CBD, THC, it doesn't touch this sore throat which is quite awful. Eating it hasn't worked for me, ever.

Its logical when you know whats going on.

You smoke cannabis, cannabis I presume you think helps.

You would be drawn to strains with this molecule in it naturally.

Eating would mean eating alot to get any meaningfully dosage to the site (throat). If you swallowed the drops, same problem.

When you smoke the molecules are dispersed into a concentrated smoke cloud which then coats your throat as you inhale.

Shutting down adaptive immunity with this molecule naturally causes innate immunity to become dominant again. Likely the immune response required to effectively deal with the throat infection or whatever pathogen or allergen causing the issue.

This is not advice and is for educational purposes of how I deal with my medical condition ME/CFS/Fibro.

Daniel

 

[Rufous McKinney]

There is no other way to do that but in blood, through veins. Blood circulates through your liver no matter what you do. So how can you bypass your liver?

I think whats meant here is 1) eating a cannabis product goes thru the stomach, thru the digestive system and into the liver and circulation.

Smoking it, or sublingually, is going directly into the blood stream and circulation but of course eventually its in the liver too.

Is it similar to the thing about sucrose versus fructose?

 

[Rufous McKinney]

lomatium dissectum tincture...guess it woke something up :/

you consumed that?

wow the snake roots, and biscuit roots (Sanicula and Lomatium) well the volatiles/smell of those is quite hard to endure, can't even imagine eating that.