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Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.
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My worry is that if we aggressively bite one of the hands that feeds us, even if he's insulted some people along the way, that those recently drawn to our fight may back off and go back to seeing us as more trouble than we're worth.
We must continue to critique his methods and ideas if we believe they are wrong, but creating a mob to aggressively drive away a respected and potentially valuable asset, an action which will be witnessed by the wider scientific/academic community, seems to me to be counter-productive. If we act like a mob we'll be seen as one again.
His attack on JB was foul and vicious, but ultimately they were just words weren't they? The impact of words is an entirely individual response. Coyne was roundly criticised at the time and ultimately surely did most damage to his own reputation. I don't like the idea that JB propagates in her tweet storm about it recently that Coyne has damaged her health and the lives of her husband and children.
This is what Coyne posted as a comment on Jeannette's blog:Is his help being actively 'sought' now though? He's just trundling along on his chosen path and he's too far down the line to countenance walking away from challenging PACE. Plenty of previously disinterested academics and researchers are watching from afar to see what the outcome is and it has now become something of a personal crusade for him. I don't think he gives a feck what individual patients think of him now and certainly doesn't take instruction from us.
My boldingHowever, since returning from Germany, I’m back to a task that many people in the patient community have asked me to address. Namely, I’m working on a blog post with a set of what I think are compelling reasons why they should be comfortable refusing to enroll their children in the potentially harmful (in so many ways) MAGENTA trial or in withdrawing their children if they have already enrolled them under pressure. It’s a small contribution, but some think it’s valuable. And now you’ve gone ahead iand distracted me from this.
This was exactly the thoughts of Germans in the 1930's who saw the rise of Hitler. They thought we don't really like some of his tactics but he promises to take us out of our financial crisis - let's support him.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Godwin's_LawTraditionally in many Internet discussion forums, it is the rule that once such a comparison is made, the discussion is effectively finished and whoever mentioned Hitler or the Nazis has automatically lost the debate, though it is considered sort-of acceptable if one immediately says "Pardon me for invoking Godwin's Law."
Then you should know all the more that comparing Coyne to Hitler is pathetic.I chose Hitler because I am a child of survivors of Hitler's holocaust. Many of my family members have perished at the hand of this dictator.
I think it is fine to disagree with style but it is not fine to threaten punishment if you don't agree.
Edit to add:
What Coyne basically did was act as a fascist. He was attempting to force the community to agree with him - to go against those advocates, apologize to him or else!
I don't think his "help" should be sought any longer.
Then you should know all the more that comparing Coyne to Hitler is pathetic.
*Me, leaving thread*This was exactly the thoughts of Germans in the 1930's who saw the rise of Hitler.
Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate.[9][10] Similar criticisms of the "law" (or "at least the distorted version which purports to prohibit all comparisons to German crimes") have been made by Glenn Greenwald.[11]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
I did not compare Coyne to Hitler and Hiler's name was used in historical context to show the hold that a dictator has on the people and how the people can convince themselves that the ends justify the means.
Godwin's law has been totally demolished in the UK, where sick and disabled citizens are being publicly collectively defamed by government ministers and media, and actually persecuted by the sickness benefits agencies, to the point that the UN has intervened in the UK govermnent persecution of UK sick and disabled citizens .....
The shocking death toll from government sickness benefit department policies is part of the issue.
UK sick and disabled citizens have been portrayed by ministers and media as the 'underserving sick' in intensive national media and dwp campaigns for some years now...... the equivalent of the nazi "Useless eaters" slogans.
Please do not think that Nielk is the only person currently referring to nazi policies...... the UK government policy caused death toll of sick and disabled citizens is widely attracting such comparisons..... thus the current redundancy of the glib Godwin's Law.
This is what Coyne posted as a comment on Jeannette's blog:
My bolding
Mate, he's an American psychologist whose only weapon is to call people names on the Internet. The comparison was absolutely ridiculous.
I agree that if I would have compare Coyne to Hitler it would have been ridiculous.
I used the historical fact of how people were influenced to follow a dictator even though they didn't like his tactics.
If you want to use that to say I lost the debate - fine.
Except that you only use an example of one outcome where the people needing help eventually lost everything. You've called him a dictator. That's a strong word. Dictators use violence to crush dissent. In fact dissent is simply not allowed. Last time I looked people can and do criticise Coyne. He has no real power over the ME community as a whole. It's been said above that we don't even need his help any more. If that's the case then how exactly is he going to force thousands of people to bend to his will?
A dictator, dictionary definition: a ruler with total power over a country, typically one who has obtained control by force.
Is Coyne that? Is he feck.
Aaaannnddddd you lose as well. And I can also promise you that as soon as people from outside the group to which those involved in the discussion belong see mention of Hitler they role their eyes and walk away. As abhorrent as government policies have been towards the sick and disabled, making comparisons to Nazi Germany makes most people think the originator of the claims is a pillock, at best.
I never mentioned Hitler, richio76
your response illustrates the reason why Godwins Law no longer carries the cachet that it used to. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the current discourse about the effects of UK DWP policies on the UK sick and disabled population.
The issue is that facile and glib reference to Godwins Law has trivialised and inhibited pretty serious debate of current UK social policy, from individuals who are extremely history literate.