Creepy posts by James Coyne to Jeanette Burmeister

[adreno]

@adreno

You might find this article, written by Michael Godwin himself, interesting.

The inventor of "Godwin's Law" about Hitler comparisons on the Internet says they're not always inappropriate.

But in this case, the comparison truly was inappropriate.

 

[skipskip30]

This thread demonstrates why theres a need to take a step back from the internet sometimes and re read things when you've cooled down. The level of hyperbole has reached ridiculous levels now.

 

[Valentijn]

Well, I haven't been following half of this conversation, but from what I can glean, we've gone from characterizing Coyne as "schoolyard bully" to "domestic abuser" to "terrorist" and now to "genocidal maniac"

He's an internet troll, FFS. If you don't like him, block him and move on. He's not breaking any laws. He's not pushing anyone to the ground, he's not striking advocates, he's not blowing anyone up, and he's not putting anyone to death.

 

[JayS]

At some point this thread will likely die. It's frustrating that it's taken me this long to weigh in, but that's the way it goes. I tried to leave a comment on Jeannette's blog, but couldn't get past Wordpress for some reason. Whatever. This is a big nasty fountain of excrement that I wish didn't exist, but it does. I'll start by saying I'm still extremely puzzled how this all got started. It made no sense, still doesn't.

When Coyne got involved last October, I and many others thought it was a great thing. In retrospect I still do think that, but that's why this all makes no sense. His attack on Jeannette was completely out of character, at least in my view, at least based on how he'd been for the several months prior (and being unaware of what's been reported about his past history). Yes, there was some unpleasantness, but for the most part he seemed extremely supportive, and mostly because he saw what was wrong with PACE, and from there how we've been mistreated. Whether or not he fancied himself some mega-do-gooder, champion of the downtrodden, or just a narcissist who gets off on attention, it didn't really matter. We needed a presence like that, even if he may have been overly aggressive (with Wessely) and even obnoxious (with Ben Goldacre, and the reporter or editor from the Telegraph...if not the Spectator). What happened with Suzy was very unfortunate, and the idea that there would be more of that certainly crossed my mind. But though he was rather unkind to Suzy, and she was hurt, needlessly, that episode was nothing compared to what happened later. I consider Suzy a good friend and was dismayed to see how that went, especially in terms of how it affected her. I tried to mediate a bit, but that was futile. I wondered if I shouldn't have been sticking up more for Suzy, but it seemed like they would just sort of go their separate ways and it would blow over. Yes, he got details wrong that Suzy had been on top of for several years. I hoped that aspect, too, would pass.

I'm not going to go with Nielk on the Nazi thing, but you guys wanna go the Godwin route on that? That's your right, and what a lot of people would do. Tell you what. Why don't you indulge me for a sec and think about why she might put up a post like that? It's not boilerplate Godwin to begin with, and, yes, she's that upset about this. I think she has a right to be. That tirade Coyne went on six months ago was downright frightening, never mind the old history, not that that should be discarded, necessarily. One day people wake up & there's all these 'f*ck yourself' messages in their inboxes, some to people who didn't really even know him? I'd had a lot of pleasant emails with James, and all of a sudden I have a DM on Twitter that says 'tell your f*cking friend to shut up' or some shit. Huh? WTF?

I've thought a bit about how & why this happened. None of it makes sense. I didn't say a lot about it at the time. I responded to him on Facebook in one of the threads that was later deleted; then I wrote him a long email that I doubt he read, though I addressed some of the points he was making, as directly as I could. I said, on more than one occasion, "I stand with Jeannette Burmeister." Now, not everyone cares for Jeannette (There was one person who made a reference to "Jeannette's flying monkeys." Where can I sign up?), and, personalities being what they are, we're always going to have some level of dissension in a community like ours.But you know what? I will say that I don't think Jeannette gets the appreciation I believe she's earned. Who else has gone up against HHS, won in court, and spent tens of thousands of dollars out of their own pocket to do it? Some people don't like her style, maybe? Boo effin' hoo. She's among the most effective and special advocates I've ever seen.

But it's anyone's right to disagree. You want to go on conversing with Coyne, buddy buddy, that's yr prerogative. I'm not one who's going to ask or tell anyone not to do so. I didn't unfriend him or stop following him on Twitter (though he unfollowed me after awhile). I'm not going to not look at his tweets or blogs, because they're relevant. But I'm not going to pretend what happened was okay, either. I'm still stuck on what caused this, what drove it. But I'll get back to that in a minute.

I will say that I suspect that this could have blown over a bit, or at least been a little less of a source of headaches for a lot of people involved, but it's been kept going for some time, and every time I saw that it was, I wished and hoped that posts about it would cease. That's selfish on my part, and probably not fair at all to the person or people who continued posting about the situation. They had every right to, especially if they'd been on the receiving end of Coyne's abuse. But something told me that Jeannette was having a worse time of it than anyone else, and that bothered me more. Right, that's not fair to the others, and I could even be wrong, and she might've written this blog, after all these months, even if there weren't many, many posts about the situation, ongoing. I don't know (but I have to say, strongly, that I doubt it). I have heard that the abusive private messages have continued, though I'm not privy to any, so not sure, if this is accurate, who's doing the sending and who's on the receiving end. It pains me to have written this paragraph. But that's how it's looked to me.

At times I thought I should stand up & shout about it; but I really haven't had the strength, and I questioned what good it would do. Was it going to change anybody's mind? I don't have the strength for a flame war, and have been in an extended crash for months. Nevertheless, there is always that instinct to stand up for those who have been abused, and I probably didn't do as much as I should've--although my private communication to James was pretty specific and direct.

So why should I bother now? Well, for one thing, it occurs to me that this is a community that is growing at a rate nobody can measure, but one that I think has accelerated in the recent past. It struck me when I saw a discussion on Reddit a few months ago where people who seemed to have been with that 'cfs' community for awhile didn't know who Vanessa Li was. That could be for a lot of reasons, but my take was that there are more and more sick, all the time. And what happens when they stumble into our extended community? Health Rising gets a lot of newbies (as does Solve, which I remain hopeful is an improvement over CAA), and it's understandable, as it looks like a fairly reasonable place to gather information and interact, especially if people don't know much about Cort or the history that's transpired over the past 5, 10, 20 years, or longer. When I first found Phoenix Rising Cort was criticizing Hillary Johnson rather harshly, and I didn't know any better, and it made some sort of sense. It took me awhile to figure out that the CAA was not our friend, and required a lot of effort, the kind that brain fog and cognitive difficulties don't exactly help. And I think a lot of people who might otherwise look at things differently, take the point of views expressed there (and sometimes here) as reasonable ideas. In that environment, Jeannette and people like her can be cast as villains, or at least counterproductive.

That's a travesty. We should only have more people who have sacrificed what she has, done what she has done, and been successful at it. We should be so lucky. But, hey. That's MY opinion. If others want to see her as some sort of drama queen or someone whose tweets are going to cause friction with HHS, heaven forbid, that's your right. But in my book she's the last person who deserves what she got. Disagree with her all you like. But...'sick, crazy lawyer?' Where in the shit did THAT come from?

And...based on WHAT? One five-day-old tweet to NIH where they obviously really pay our tweets tons of attention! Really? Um...THIS MAKES NO SENSE. Especially coming from someone who certainly encouraged Act-Up style advocacy, lauded the video I made in front of the Stonewall Inn, got super-aggressive with our enemies, and also got into hot water with the matter of referring to a remark from a female editor as a 'bitch comment,' an unforced error that caused Coyne a bigger problem than I think he would've anticipated (the details of which he asked me at the time to keep private, and I'll continue to honor that, but let's just say it turned into kind of a big deal). Now, was that an indicator that we were dealing with someone rather misogynistic who was unable to control himself? There was no such invective that I recall when he fell out with Suzy. Maybe I'm wrong to do so, but I sure read it in the 'sick, crazy lawyer' comment.

If you're reading this you probably know how that turned out. It was the ugliest thing I've seen in this community in my 17 years sick, and topping some of the XMRV bile is saying something. It was personal and destructive and mean and vicious...and it made NO SENSE. I must confess I don't know as much about whatever it was that happened with Angela Kennedy, but that wasn't exactly pleasant, either, was it. Well, you know what? There's something here that stands out to me when I try to consider how this one tweet could have produced such invective, especially when it was apparent that Coyne either didn't know of Jeannette or her accomplishments or what she means to this community--or, more likely, didn't care. THAT points to him, as has been said previously, caring more about himself than anything having to do with our particular struggle. Like it's a game to him. He went from receiving Facebook friend requests from grateful patients, to sending tons out himself, which I thought was a REALLY weird move. But...he got to poke Wessely on Twitter, and it's like a big game--to the extent that it's actually a reach that he believes some of the things he wrote. Key to that, for me, is how he seems to feel about Edward Shorter. Now there's a guy who looks like someone more interested in games & power plays than putting forth serious statements that should be considered in the realm of actual medical policy. But, hey, that's just my take. I could be wrong. The point is, though, that Coyne's attack on Jeannette was wildly in conflict with virtually everything he'd said and done to that point with regards to PACE and ME/CFS advocacy. IT MADE NO SENSE. It still doesn't. Unless I've completely lost my ability to think, pretty much everything I've ever seen Jeannette do over the years was consistent with what Coyne seemed to appreciate about the community and how it functions in this struggle. Yeah, that's what I think, and the worst thing that can happen is that I'm wrong. I'm often wrong. But that's sure how it looked to me; still does.

And what was this about? What, Walitt on the NIH study wasn't a matter of legitimate concern? Coyne reads one blog by Cort downplaying the significance, something I think most on this site would disagree with, and decides to go on this tirade? Huh? Well, a man can do whatever he wants. But it sure was disappointing, as he seemed to grasp the problems we face, and absorbed elements of the history, which he was shown by many in the community. But having that sort of reaction is one thing; going after Jeannette & then who knows how many people is quite another. But for Pete's sake, that was disgusting, irrational, disturbing, and violent. It affected a lot of people badly. And for what? Because the community needs to 'police' itself? Yeah, right. That's been tried. Didn't work out so well, and I addressed that in the email I wrote to Coyne. I remember when scores of people were banned from this site, most for what seemed like unbelievably ridiculous, petty reasons. A site can do what it wants, of course, but it looked like a severe, petty, and very stupid overreaction. And in the end it did nothing to solve what Coyne sees as a 'problem' of 'trolls' who need to be 'policed.' Well, you know what? Some of those 'trolls' are good friends of mine, yet I'm not going to agree with everything they say. But it's not the point. It's a problem with no solution, and we've got bigger problems. And for my money the 'sick crazy lawyer' crap was FAR worse than anything Coyne could've pointed to as objectionable.

So now there's a comment from him on Jeannette's blog about is her husband jealous because of all the attention she's giving Coyne? Are you serious? That's some classless shit, there, and, again, easily as objectionable as pretty much anything I see from those 'trolls' that I might personally consider over the top. You know what, some of those 'trolls,' they just happen to be right about some things every now and then. Important things. But I digress; they're not going anywhere. Nevertheless, as I said, the 'policing' stunt had been tried. You'd think Coyne would be smart enough to at least consider the concept of cause and effect, perhaps even ask if it'd been attempted before. No. Instead it was 'f*ck yourself' and 'tell your f*cking friend to shut up' and 'if you don't do something about this i'm out of here' or whatever threat it was. Out of the blue.

Now here we have a moderator who doesn't believe that this is a topic worthy of this website. Um, half the time when I come here there's a banner featuring Coyne for something that he did. And he did a lot of good, and I don't want to make people feel they shouldn't be grateful for what he did--I certainly am. I mean, I can be dismayed and bewildered and really effin' angry yet not willing to forget the gratitude I felt for what he was doing for us. His outburst was so extreme that my only course of action was to distance myself, permanently. But...this is not for discussion here? Really? What the hell. That's ABSURD. But, hey. It's your sandbox. Your rules. You do what you want. Delete the thread, why don't you, while you're at it. You couldn't have a MORE important thread on this website, though certainly it's a lot less important after I've weighed in and bored everybody to death. I don't care. I didn't stand up for Jeannette enough, but I really couldn't, so it's not like I felt guilty. But enough is enough. 'Are you jealous...' My God. That's some sick shit.

You guys want to make this thread about Godwin, fine. Guess what: you made your point. This is about more than playing internet cop circa 1999. Mind you, I don't agree with everything Jeannette, or anyone else, says, or does, for that matter. I've had my issues with enough people. I'm sure I'm not particularly well-thought of in many corners. In some cases I don't care, in others, it matters deeply. I would have preferred if Jeannette had not written this blog, had not gone forward with those tweets. But she wasn't wrong, and if she went so far as to do those things, then I have every confidence that she was provoked. The idea that she would just do this out of the blue, after all this time, which I believe someone expressed upthread, that I couldn't disagree with more.

So she did put those tweets out there. She did write that blog. It's out there. You can do with it what you wish, or ignore it completely. I think the idea that someone has come into our collective living room and abused a member of our family is valid, and it sucks. I know how important it is to bring PACE down. I thank James for his efforts but shake my head in disgust and anger at his vendetta against Jeannette, and others. I'm glad this forum is here, but if this discussion is frowned upon, then I question its value.

 

[Undisclosed]

Now here we have a moderator who doesn't believe that this is a topic worthy of this website. Um, half the time when I come here there's a banner featuring Coyne for something that he did. And he did a lot of good, and I don't want to make people feel they shouldn't be grateful for what he did--I certainly am. I mean, I can be dismayed and bewildered and really effin' angry yet not willing to forget the gratitude I felt for what he was doing for us. His outburst was so extreme that my only course of action was to distance myself, permanently. But...this is not for discussion here? Really? What the hell. That's ABSURD. But, hey. It's your sandbox. Your rules. You do what you want. Delete the thread, why don't you, while you're at it. You couldn't have a MORE important thread on this website, though certainly it's a lot less important after I've weighed in and bored everybody to death. I don't care. I didn't stand up for Jeannette enough, but I really couldn't, so it's not like I felt guilty. But enough is enough. 'Are you jealous...' My God. That's some sick shit.

I wasn't speaking as a 'moderator', I gave my personal opinion which I am entitled to. I stand by that.

Why the angry diatribe regarding deleting the thread? Obviously we would have done so by now if we were going to. Whether it gets closed depends if it turns into a flame war of personal attacks. This thread was not started to have a constructive conversation regarding the poor treatment of advocates. It seems it was just started as a vehicle to further attack Coyne. What better place than a large ME forum to continue the conversation? I simply suggested to keep it in Social Media where it started.

I actually feel for Jeannette very deeply because I understand what it's like to be abused on the internet. I don't see many that are condoning his behaviour, I for one don't condone it. A person supporting our cause to some extent can still be a total abusive arse. We can hate the abusive arse part of him and make it clear that it is not acceptable to treat people like this.

How long is this going to be drawn out for and it really does take away from advocacy for ME patients and puts the focus elsewhere. Jeanette had some really nasty comments thrown her way. Yes, we are angry about that but for how long do we have to keep this up, how long does it divide us? There are more important things going on and really how is this all going to end? Look how long this thread is getting. There isn't going to be any resolution, so it seems.

I am way more angry that people like Vanessa Li, Tom Jarrett, Amberlin Wu, Bevan Jeffrey, Spindrift, Thomas Hennessy Jr., hubcap_halo, Emily Collingridge, Sophia Mirza and countless others have died due to the disgusting way ME patients are treated by the government, doctors, family, society in general etc. I think it is way more important to spend our precious time advocating and supporting those that could die from various forms of neglect and abuse rather than spending time on this which is an issue that pales in comparison. My only thought is -- seriously get a grip on reality and put all of this in perspective for what it was -- a social media flame war rife with insults. That's my opinion, take it or leave it.

 

[Wildcat]

The issue is still going on because such numbers of the supposed community are still trivialising the damage caused by Coyne, and the continuing disparaging/trolling/victim blaming of Coynes targets, on various media up to this day.

 

[JES]

The issue is still going on because such numbers of the supposed community are still trivialising the damage caused by Coyne, and the continuing disparaging/trolling/victim blaming of Coynes targets, on various media up to this day.

None who knows Coyne takes all of his Twitter posts and comments seriously anymore. Bringing him up will just draw attention to him and solve nothing, it will only highlight his status. If some people here think that Twitter trolling can be solved by counter actions, they live in a delusion.

It would achieve nothing even if everyone on this thread stated that they are "extremely concerned", it doesn't change anything. There is nothing that would "solve" this issue as such, apart from banning Coyne from their platform. Jeanette and Coyne can have their private settlement if they so wish, but that's another matter.

 

[Wildcat]

.
If Coyne's behaviour towards so very many ME patients/carers/activists over such a period of time had been committed by Professors White, Chalder, Sharpe or Wessely, there would be outrage.

If Coyne was a UK psychologist behaving as he did, and continues to do, there would be legitimate complaints about his behaviour to the UK Health Professionals Council (the HPC). Complaints that would be taken seriously.

Its not a case of 'flame wars'..... it is a case of a psychology professional very aggressively attempting to intimidate ME activists to stop criticising a US funded ME study that had employed a blatantly psychosocial researcher

 

[barbc56]

*Me, about to resume debate*

*Me, leaving thread*

Very wise words.

Boycott this thread! Don't give this issue more attention. It's usefullness has expired. We have the information. People can make up their own minds.

The sky is not falling!

On to more important issues where the sky is falling!

 

[JES]

.
If Coyne's behaviour towards so very many ME patients/carers/activists over such a period of time had been committed by Professors White, Chalder, Sharpe or Wessely, there would be outrage.

If Coyne was a UK psychologist behaving as he did, and continues to do, there would be legitimate complaints about his behaviour to the UK Health Professionals Council (the HPC). Complaints that would be taken seriously.

Its not a case of 'flame wars'..... it is a case of a psychology professional very aggressively attempting to intimidate ME activists to stop criticising a US funded ME study that had employed a blatantly psychosocial researcher

ME community intimidation has been going on for decades by the UK BPS psychologist crowd. Wessely fabricated stories about death threads from CFS/ME community (source), coincidentally just weeks before Lancet published the PACE results, which lead to the following headlines:

"Possibly dangerous chronic fatigue syndrome patients were threatening prominent psychiatrists and psychologists who were researching the illness"

Horton and Sharpe in a radio interview said the following:

“One sees a fairly small, but highly organised, very vocal and very damaging group of individuals who have I would say actually hijacked this agenda and distorted the debate so that it actually harms the overwhelming majority of patients.”

These are official statements given in newspapers/radio, IMO they are way worse than some Twitter wars.

 

[Esther12]

The issue is still going on because such numbers of the supposed community are still trivialising the damage caused by Coyne, and the continuing disparaging/trolling/victim blaming of Coynes targets, on various media up to this day.

People are going to have different views on Coyne's comments. Some will see it as an internet squabble, some as a terrorising abuse of power.I don't think that those differences of opinion will ever disappear.

.
If Coyne's behaviour towards so very many ME patients/carers/activists over such a period of time had been committed by Professors White, Chalder, Sharpe or Wessely, there would be outrage.

More 'glee' than 'outrage' if they'd messed up as obviously as that imo.

 

[Esther12]

On to more important issues where the sky is falling!

How depressing that this thread is the most relaxing thing in my life right now.

 

[Wildcat]

.
What Coyne did and continues to do is not "twitter wars".... which is a trivialising term.

Coyne attempted, across several online media, to silence a number of highly informed and astute long term activists, from critiquing the involvement of psychosocial researchers in a US (NIH) government funded study.

The activists Coyne attacked had been informedly campaigning against the UK Wessely/White/Sharpe etc UK psychosocial practices for years/decades. They are not delicate flowers, but experienced and exceptionally informed and articulate/effective advocates.

Its preposterous to portray Coyne's targets as delicate/wingeing victims, ignorant of historical ME politics.

Several of Coynes targets Wrote ME political history!
.

 

[Stewart]

..... it is a case of a psychology professional very aggressively attempting to intimidate ME activists to stop criticising a US funded ME study that had employed a blatantly psychosocial researcher

It was a case of an elderly man with poor social skills (on social media at least) losing his temper and shouting and swearing because he thought a handful of advocates were acting in a way that was counter to the interests of the community. And he was widely condemned for his behaviour. And this happened over six months ago now.

.
What Coyne did and continues to do is not "twitter wars"

What exactly is it that Coyne is 'continuing to do'? I asked a couple of pages back if anyone could provide evidence to back up these insinuations that Coyne is continuing to abuse pwME, but none has been forthcoming so far. Can you provide any?

 

[JayS]

Seriously?

 

[Wildcat]

.

Oh , the latest excuse for Coyne's widespread abuses of sick activists and carer activists.

Coyne is elderly, with poor social skills..... of course..... the perfect excuse to abuse sick people and carers.... some of whom are housebound, without necessary care, ... as old as he is ... but Coyne must be excused .... by whatever means

 

[Undisclosed]

It was a case of an elderly man with poor social skills (on social media at least) losing his temper and shouting and swearing because he thought a handful of advocates were acting in a way that was counter to the interests of the community. And he was widely condemned for his behaviour. And this happened over six months ago now.



What exactly is it that Coyne is 'continuing to do'? I asked a couple of pages back if anyone could provide evidence to back up these insinuations that Coyne is continuing to abuse pwME, but none has been forthcoming so far. Can you provide any?

Seriously?

View attachment 17371

This is not verbal abuse. It is troll-like sarcasm. Is this it lately or is there more?

 

[Stewart]

Seriously?

View attachment 17371

Is that all there is? An admittedly snarky comment from Coyne *after* Jeannette had reopened hostilities?

The justification given elsewhere in this thread for Jeannette's blog post (and by Jeannette and her husband) is that Coyne has continued to harrass activists since his outburst six months ago. I'm just asking if there's any evidence of that. So far no-one has produced any. If there isn't any evidence - and I'm starting to strongly suspect there isn't - then I think people should stop making unfounded allegations.

.

Oh , the latest excuse for Coyne's widespread abuses of sick activists and csrer activists.

Coyne is elderly, with poor social skills..... of course..... the perfect excuse to abuse sick people and carers.... some of whom are housebound, without necessary care, ... as old as he is ... but Coyne must be excused .... by whatever means

I wasn't trying to excuse him. But to read your description you'd think Coyne is Keyser Soze - all-powerful and all-knowing, able to reduce seasoned advocates to quivering wrecks with one tap on his keyboard. It can't be pleasant to be abused on the internet by a grumpy old man who thinks he knows better than everyone else - but that's all he is, a grumpy old man.

 

[JES]

.
What Coyne did and continues to do is not "twitter wars".... which is a trivialising term.

Coyne attempted, across several online media, to silence a number of highly informed and astute long term activists, from critiquing the involvement of psychosocial researchers in a US (NIH) government funded study.

The activists Coyne attacked had been informedly campaigning against the UK Wessely/White/Sharpe etc UK psychosocial practices for years/decades. They are not delicate flowers, but experienced and exceptionally informed and articulate/effective advocates.

Its preposterous to portray Coyne's targets as delicate/wingeing victims, ignorant of historical ME politics.

Several of Coynes targets Wrote ME political history!
.

Where is the evidence for any organized attacks outside of Twitter or some blog comment sections? I read Coyne's blog regularly, I have only seen him attack PACE in those. Also it makes no sense that Coyne would attack "activists" for their anti-Wessely agenda, since Coyne himself has trashed PACE and the BPS approach to CFS many times.

If you read one of his latest blog posts here, he directly states:

"Considering ME/CFS as a “mental disorder” is out of sync with the rest of the world, where these conditions are considered physical illnesses."

 

[Jennifer J]

How depressing that this thread is the most relaxing thing in my life right now.

@Esther12, thank you for the laugh (forgive my dark sense of humor), and seriously I'm sorry to hear it.