Creepy posts by James Coyne to Jeanette Burmeister

[flybro]

I'm right about PRforums being a home for people with ME, many of whom are disabled and vulnerable, yes?

 

[Nielk]

My worry is that if we aggressively bite one of the hands that feeds us, even if he's insulted some people along the way, that those recently drawn to our fight may back off and go back to seeing us as more trouble than we're worth.

This was exactly the thoughts of Germans in the 1930's who saw the rise of Hitler. They thought we don't really like some of his tactics but he promises to take us out of our financial crisis - let's support him.

We must continue to critique his methods and ideas if we believe they are wrong, but creating a mob to aggressively drive away a respected and potentially valuable asset, an action which will be witnessed by the wider scientific/academic community, seems to me to be counter-productive. If we act like a mob we'll be seen as one again.

I am not suggesting anything mob-like. I am suggesting that we stop engaging him. We will win over PACE without his input.

His attack on JB was foul and vicious, but ultimately they were just words weren't they? The impact of words is an entirely individual response. Coyne was roundly criticised at the time and ultimately surely did most damage to his own reputation. I don't like the idea that JB propagates in her tweet storm about it recently that Coyne has damaged her health and the lives of her husband and children.

This is where I totally disagree with you. Coyne attacked Jeannette's character and engaged others to do so as well. Words can be MORE damaging than actions. We are talking here about patients who are severely sick, to begin with. They have given years of their lives to the cause of fighting for the rights of patients - then, that same community betrays them. This has affected the lives of the victims and their families. Please, do not belittle that.

 

[Nielk]

Is his help being actively 'sought' now though? He's just trundling along on his chosen path and he's too far down the line to countenance walking away from challenging PACE. Plenty of previously disinterested academics and researchers are watching from afar to see what the outcome is and it has now become something of a personal crusade for him. I don't think he gives a feck what individual patients think of him now and certainly doesn't take instruction from us.

This is what Coyne posted as a comment on Jeannette's blog:

However, since returning from Germany, I’m back to a task that many people in the patient community have asked me to address. Namely, I’m working on a blog post with a set of what I think are compelling reasons why they should be comfortable refusing to enroll their children in the potentially harmful (in so many ways) MAGENTA trial or in withdrawing their children if they have already enrolled them under pressure. It’s a small contribution, but some think it’s valuable. And now you’ve gone ahead iand distracted me from this.

My bolding

 

[adreno]

This was exactly the thoughts of Germans in the 1930's who saw the rise of Hitler. They thought we don't really like some of his tactics but he promises to take us out of our financial crisis - let's support him.

Traditionally in many Internet discussion forums, it is the rule that once such a comparison is made, the discussion is effectively finished and whoever mentioned Hitler or the Nazis has automatically lost the debate, though it is considered sort-of acceptable if one immediately says "Pardon me for invoking Godwin's Law."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

 

[Nielk]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

I could have used other names to bring the same point across - which is a very simple one. Throughout history, people have accepted a fascist leader because of the "perception" that the leader will bring them personal advantages.

I chose Hitler because I am a child of survivors of Hitler's holocaust. Many of my family members have perished at the hand of this dictator.

 

[adreno]

I chose Hitler because I am a child of survivors of Hitler's holocaust. Many of my family members have perished at the hand of this dictator.

Then you should know all the more that comparing Coyne to Hitler is pathetic.

 

[Stewart]

I think it is fine to disagree with style but it is not fine to threaten punishment if you don't agree.

Edit to add:

What Coyne basically did was act as a fascist. He was attempting to force the community to agree with him - to go against those advocates, apologize to him or else!

I don't agree that threatening to withdraw support equates to 'punishment'. He's allowed to say "I'm withdrawing from this campaign" and he's allowed to say "I'm going to withdraw if things don't change". That's an ultimatum, not a threat. You might not like the fact that he issued an ultimatum in the circumstances - personally I thought it was a crass and petulant thing to do - but it's not the same as issuing a threat.

I don't think his "help" should be sought any longer.

How do we discover the identities of the people who are 'seeking his help' and what sanctions do we use to bring them in line?

 

[Nielk]

Then you should know all the more that comparing Coyne to Hitler is pathetic.

I did not compare Coyne to Hitler. I used Hitler as an example of how the masses will follow a dictator if they feel they will have personal gain from it.

 

[Wildcat]

Godwin's law has been totally demolished in the UK, where sick and disabled citizens are being publicly collectively defamed by government ministers and media, and actually persecuted by the sickness benefits agencies, to the point that the UN has intervened in the UK govermnent persecution of UK sick and disabled citizens .....

The shocking death toll from government sickness benefit department policies is part of the issue.

UK sick and disabled citizens have been portrayed by ministers and media as the 'underserving sick' in intensive national media and dwp campaigns for some years now...... the equivalent of the nazi "Useless eaters" slogans.

Please do not think that Nielk is the only person currently referring to nazi policies...... the UK government policy caused death toll of sick and disabled citizens is widely attracting such comparisons..... thus the current redundancy of the glib Godwin's Law.

 

[worldbackwards]

*Me, about to resume debate*

This was exactly the thoughts of Germans in the 1930's who saw the rise of Hitler.

*Me, leaving thread*

 

[Nielk]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate.[9][10] Similar criticisms of the "law" (or "at least the distorted version which purports to prohibit all comparisons to German crimes") have been made by Glenn Greenwald.[11]

I did not compare Coyne to Hitler and Hiler's name was used in historical context to show the hold that a dictator has on the people and how the people can convince themselves that the ends justify the means.

 

[richio76]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law



I did not compare Coyne to Hitler and Hiler's name was used in historical context to show the hold that a dictator has on the people and how the people can convince themselves that the ends justify the means.

Mate, he's an American psychologist whose only weapon is to call people names on the Internet. The comparison was absolutely ridiculous.

 

[richio76]

Godwin's law has been totally demolished in the UK, where sick and disabled citizens are being publicly collectively defamed by government ministers and media, and actually persecuted by the sickness benefits agencies, to the point that the UN has intervened in the UK govermnent persecution of UK sick and disabled citizens .....

The shocking death toll from government sickness benefit department policies is part of the issue.

UK sick and disabled citizens have been portrayed by ministers and media as the 'underserving sick' in intensive national media and dwp campaigns for some years now...... the equivalent of the nazi "Useless eaters" slogans.

Please do not think that Nielk is the only person currently referring to nazi policies...... the UK government policy caused death toll of sick and disabled citizens is widely attracting such comparisons..... thus the current redundancy of the glib Godwin's Law.

Aaaannnddddd you lose as well. And I can also promise you that as soon as people from outside the group to which those involved in the discussion belong see mention of Hitler they role their eyes and walk away. As abhorrent as government policies have been towards the sick and disabled, making comparisons to Nazi Germany makes most people think the originator of the claims is a pillock, at best.

 

[richio76]

This is what Coyne posted as a comment on Jeannette's blog:

My bolding

I think you're seeing a classic case of the tail thinking its wagging the dog here. Whatever he says, he's doing it because he's now on a mission to down the PACE crew and their spawn. I'd also suggest that even if his claim is genuine, would you rather he didn't try to prevent MAGENTA? Not the greatest example to use to try to guide members of the ME community away from his activism.

 

[Nielk]

Mate, he's an American psychologist whose only weapon is to call people names on the Internet. The comparison was absolutely ridiculous.

I agree that if I would have compare Coyne to Hitler it would have been ridiculous.

I used the historical fact of how people were influenced to follow a dictator even though they didn't like his tactics.

If you want to use that to say I lost the debate - fine.

 

[richio76]

I agree that if I would have compare Coyne to Hitler it would have been ridiculous.

I used the historical fact of how people were influenced to follow a dictator even though they didn't like his tactics.

If you want to use that to say I lost the debate - fine.

Except that you only use an example of one outcome where the people needing help eventually lost everything. You've called him a dictator. That's a strong word. Dictators use violence to crush dissent. In fact dissent is simply not allowed. Last time I looked people can and do criticise Coyne. He has no real power over the ME community as a whole. It's been said above that we don't even need his help any more. If that's the case then how exactly is he going to force thousands of people to bend to his will?

A dictator, dictionary definition: a ruler with total power over a country, typically one who has obtained control by force.

Is Coyne that? Is he feck.

 

[Nielk]

Except that you only use an example of one outcome where the people needing help eventually lost everything. You've called him a dictator. That's a strong word. Dictators use violence to crush dissent. In fact dissent is simply not allowed. Last time I looked people can and do criticise Coyne. He has no real power over the ME community as a whole. It's been said above that we don't even need his help any more. If that's the case then how exactly is he going to force thousands of people to bend to his will?

A dictator, dictionary definition: a ruler with total power over a country, typically one who has obtained control by force.

Is Coyne that? Is he feck.

I think I made it clear with all my posts that I am referring to verbal and psychological control (not physical violence). When a {perceived) authority figure, especially one that promises to bring gain to a group/community/nation uses tactics of verbal abuse and threats in order to control them, it is wrong. It is an abuse of power and it is victimizing those that are in a weakened state.

As I pointed out above, history has shown repeatedly that the masses can be controlled psychologically - without raising one finger.

I think at this point, I have made my own personal thoughts about this situation very clear and I have nothing more to add.

 

[Wildcat]

Aaaannnddddd you lose as well. And I can also promise you that as soon as people from outside the group to which those involved in the discussion belong see mention of Hitler they role their eyes and walk away. As abhorrent as government policies have been towards the sick and disabled, making comparisons to Nazi Germany makes most people think the originator of the claims is a pillock, at best.

I never mentioned Hitler, richio76

your response illustrates the reason why Godwins Law no longer carries the cachet that it used to. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the current discourse about the effects of UK DWP policies on the UK sick and disabled population.

The issue is that facile and glib reference to Godwins Law has trivialised and inhibited pretty serious debate of current UK social policy, from individuals who are extremely history literate.

 

[CJB]

@adreno

You might find this article, written by Michael Godwin himself, interesting.

The inventor of "Godwin's Law" about Hitler comparisons on the Internet says they're not always inappropriate.

 

[richio76]

I never mentioned Hitler, richio76

your response illustrates the reason why Godwins Law no longer carries the cachet that it used to. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the current discourse about the effects of UK DWP policies on the UK sick and disabled population.

The issue is that facile and glib reference to Godwins Law has trivialised and inhibited pretty serious debate of current UK social policy, from individuals who are extremely history literate.

Yep, you at no point drew a comparison with Nazi propaganda. Oh wait, you did.