Coxsackie B4 - kill ‘em all

[Hip]

Here it says it's highly potent inhibitor of EBV.

That is an in vitro study. Many substances are highly potent antiviral in vitro, but have little or no antiviral effects in vivo.

This is because high concentrations of the substance are used in vitro, but those high concentrations often cannot be obtain in vivo (because there is a maximum safe oral dose of any substance).

I found dozens of substances (off-label drugs, herbs, supplements) which are potent antivirals for enterovirus in vitro (I listed these in vitro antivirals in this post), but unfortunately when I calculated the pharmacokinetics of the concentration of the substance that can be achieved in vivo, all turned out to have very little antiviral effects in vivo.

I was hoping to find some substance that would have useful antiviral effects against enterovirus, but I failed to find anything, sadly.

 

[Rim1]

That is an in vitro study. Many substances are highly potent antiviral in vitro, but have little or no antiviral effects in vivo.

This is because high concentrations of the substance are used in vitro, but those high concentrations often cannot be obtain in vivo (because there is a maximum safe oral dose of any substance).

I found dozens of substances (off-label drugs, herbs, supplements) which are potent antivirals for enterovirus in vitro (I listed these in vitro antivirals in this post), but unfortunately when I calculated the pharmacokinetics of the concentration of the substance that can be achieved in vivo, all turned out to have very little antiviral effects in vivo.

I was hoping to find some substance that would have useful antiviral effects against enterovirus, but I failed to find anything, sadly.

Yeah sad to hear that.
Anyway there are some cases of MS which is strongly related with EBV (In my humble opinion ebv is the cause) that have been put into remission by TAF or AZT (strong ebv inhibitors).
https://www.msard-journal.com/article/S2211-0348(20)30643-X/pdf
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211034818300828

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I was hoping to find some substance that would have useful antiviral effects against enterovirus, but I failed to find anything, sadly.

Chia says Remdesivir is quite promising

 

[Hip]

Anyway there are some cases of MS which is strongly related with EBV (In my humble opinion ebv is the cause) that have been put into remission by TAF or AZT (strong ebv inhibitors).

It could be that the particular mechanism of action of tenofovir on EBV (inhibiting reactivation) is more beneficial than the mechanism of Valtrex (inhibiting reactivation), at least in the context of MS.

Chia says Remdesivir is quite promising

Yes, but unfortunately the high cost of remdesivir would probably make it non-viable. Previous experiments that Dr Chia has performed using enterovirus antivirals (ribavirin and pleconaril) to treat ME/CFS showed that when you stop the antiviral, the ME/CFS symptoms rapidly return within weeks.

If that is also the case with remdesivir, then it means you may need to keep taking it, in order to maintain the benefits. I believe the price of remdesivir is around $400 per dose, so only billionaires could afford that.


Immunomodulators like oxymatrine (when they work) seem to have longer lasting effects, compared to antivirals. Oxymatrine is not antiviral in vivo for enterovirus, but ramps up the antiviral immune response. Dr Chia finds when oxymatrine works for an ME/CFS patient, if they are men, they can stop taking it after 6 months, and the benefits remain (though he finds women need to continue taking oxymatrine indefinitely, or at least a lot longer, otherwise they relapse).

 

[hapl808]

I still haven't trialed oxymatrine or the equivalents. Are there any recommendations for sources and protocols? My onset many years ago seemed viral or pathogen in origin, although many of my crashes were from allergies or overexercising. In the past (when I was mild or moderate), anti-pathogen herbs and even antibiotics had quite a bit of effectiveness. Not so much since I've been more severe although I keep trying.

I imagine you may have already written about oxymatrine and protocols for it in one of the guides. Do you have a link available?

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

It could be that the particular mechanism of action of tenofovir on EBV (inhibiting reactivation) is more beneficial than the mechanism of Valtrex (inhibiting reactivation), at least in the context of MS.





Yes, but unfortunately the high cost of remdesivir would probably make it non-viable. Previous experiments that Dr Chia has performed using enterovirus antivirals (ribavirin and pleconaril) to treat ME/CFS showed that when you stop the antiviral, the ME/CFS symptoms rapidly return within weeks.

If that is also the case with remdesivir, then it means you may need to keep taking it, in order to maintain the benefits. I believe the price of remdesivir is around $400 per dose, so only billionaires could afford that.


Immunomodulators like oxymatrine (when they work) seem to have longer lasting effects, compared to antivirals. Oxymatrine is not antiviral in vivo for enterovirus, but ramps up the antiviral immune response. Dr Chia finds when oxymatrine works for an ME/CFS patient, if they are men, they can stop taking it after 6 months, and the benefits remain (though he finds women need to continue taking oxymatrine indefinitely, or at least a lot longer, otherwise they relapse).

 

[Hip]

Are there any recommendations for sources and protocols?

If you look at the enterovirus ME/CFS treatments section of my roadmap, you find info on oxymatrine and links to further info.

The MEpedia oxymatrine page is useful too. And there a few oxymatrine articles on the Phoenix Rising blog if you search for the word oxymatrine.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Extract from https://www.pnas.org/content/117/22/12368 :
Here we show that the TFV prodrugs TDF and TAF are highly potent inhibitors of EBV lytic DNA replication. In cell-based assays, we demonstrate that TDF and TAF are significantly more potent than ACV and PCV. TAF is also more potent than GCV. Furthermore, we provide strong evidence suggesting that, like standard herpesviral drugs, these compounds target the EBV DNA polymerase.

Here it says it's highly potent inhibitor of EBV. Of course it's antiviral for HERVs also.
Remains enteroviruses, I was wondering if it can have an antiviral mechanism against them also. Don't think it gives such important improvements by its immunomodulatory properties (there are plenty immunomodulators out there, maybe much better than tenofovir which is an antiviral).

Related discussion from another thread:

It's also possible tenofovir might actually work by suppressing HERV activation in ME/CFS patients. In which case, it would not matter which virus you have, if it's actually targeting HERVs.

That is indeed the most likely explanation for the reported effects of tenofovir.

But it's not the only explanation. The original in vitro tests reported by Erik De Clercq in 2003 showed no activity of tenofovir against HSV or EBV.[1] Then a clinical trial testing a vaginal gel made of tenofovir for HIV prevention noted that the patients receiving the tenofovir gel had fewer HSV2 genital lesions than those not using the gel. A follow-up clinical trial designed to specifically see if tenofovir could reduce HSV2 shedding found a modest effect.[2] Further in vitro testing showed that tenofovir had some efficacy against HSV[3] and against EBV[4].

References
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC207110/
[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4655855/
[3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29186456/
[4] https://www.pnas.org/content/117/22/12368

 

[Rim1]

I believe the price of remdesivir is around $400 per dose, so only billionaires could afford that.

Is that the daily dose?
In that case must hope that the indians start producing and selling it with a much lower price lol.

 

[Rim1]

copy paste from wikipedia

On 12 May 2020, Gilead announced that it had granted non-exclusive voluntary licenses to five generic drug companies in India and Pakistan to manufacture remdesivir for distribution to 127 countries.[120][121][122] The agreements were structured so that the licensees can set their own prices and will not have to pay royalties to Gilead until the WHO declares an end to the COVID‑19 emergency or another medicine or vaccine is approved for COVID‑19, whichever comes first.[120] On 23 June 2020, India granted emergency marketing approval of generic remdesivir manufactured by two Gilead licensees, Cipla and Hetero Drugs.

 

[JinZ]

copy paste from wikipedia

On 12 May 2020, Gilead announced that it had granted non-exclusive voluntary licenses to five generic drug companies in India and Pakistan to manufacture remdesivir for distribution to 127 countries.[120][121][122] The agreements were structured so that the licensees can set their own prices and will not have to pay royalties to Gilead until the WHO declares an end to the COVID‑19 emergency or another medicine or vaccine is approved for COVID‑19, whichever comes first.[120] On 23 June 2020, India granted emergency marketing approval of generic remdesivir manufactured by two Gilead licensees, Cipla and Hetero Drugs.

Or they should release the Compound A/17 : )

 

[elvira]

I’ve knew it from the beginning that I have it. No it’s confirmed with the Neutralizationtest.
Thing is: I find it very confusing how to treat it effectively. Joshua wants to kill it with Andrographis.

I have to say that I’m poor and can’t afford flying to Argentina and buy Ampligen or have multiple Interferon infusions. But I want to get rid of it.

Any ideas or better experiences are welcome.
Btw: In Germany you can’t get Dr. Chias Equilibrium

Thank you very much,

Hello! Where did you do your blood test? I’m in sweden and would like to investigate which Coxsackie i’ve got - arminlabs only told me about A7 and B1....

Also, i ordered Dr Chia’s Equilibrant to Sweden, won’t it work?

 

[tommybrand]

Also, i ordered Dr Chia’s Equilibrant to Sweden, won’t it work?

I just received Equilibrant to Norway with no customs issues, so I would think you have a fair chance

I believe Germany is very strict, compared to most other European countries.

 

[elvira]

I just received Equilibrant to Norway with no customs issues, so I would think you have a fair chance

I believe Germany is very strict, compared to most other European countries.

Relieved to hear! Hope it will help us, do you also have Coxsackie?

 

[godlovesatrier]

Armin labs to my knowledge do not have the right tests to prove you have entereoviral infection.

You need a neutralization test. Which only IMD can do.

Hip posted a link to his roadmap above. Honestly armin lab tests are pretty useless I got mine in 2019, wasted £1500 on useless tests, I was rather angry about it. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

[tommybrand]

Relieved to hear! Hope it will help us, do you also have Coxsackie?

I’m not sure what I have yet. Waiting for test results from University of Frankfurt (where I ordered neutralization tests for CVB and EV).

 

[elvira]

Armin labs to my knowledge do not have the right tests to prove you have entereoviral infection.

You need a neutralization test. Which only IMD can do.

Hip posted a link to his roadmap above. Honestly armin lab tests are pretty useless I got mine in 2019, wasted £1500 on useless tests, I was rather angry about it. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

So even if my titers where high for IgA it’s not evidence of infection? I guess I’ll have to find new blood tests... I mainly went to Arminlabs to test for Lyme disease which i didn’t have, but then i found this Coxsackie-path. They write that they see signs of virus infection in the Elisa control and i was negative for all other types, except latent EBV.

 

[elvira]

I’m not sure what I have yet. Waiting for test results from University of Frankfurt (where I ordered neutralization tests for CVB and EV).

You could send blood from Norway there? Might be worth a shot for me too. But just spent 18000 SEK on arminlabs

 

[godlovesatrier]

Elisa tests don't basically tell you a thing...it's such a scam.

They tell you these things A) you once had an infection B) you have an active infection C) you have a chronic infection that never cleared. Basically tells you nothing, the virus could be live, it could be dead, it may be there but not register on the test at all. The neutralization test will tell you if it's active and how bad it is, which is really more useful for all tests for all viruses.

Again sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I've had lyme elisa and lyme sera spot, after having it explained to me in depth on facebook I realised how shockingly shit these tests are. Which prob means I should get the lyme re-tested I guess but lyme is a bit contentious, you could take antabuse to try and get rid of it. But I spoke to a fella who did amazingly well on antabuse who certainly had all the lyme factors and tests....but he never fully recovered, so who's to say it was lyme that was the issue at all in the first place?

IMD tests are decent though.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Hello! Where did you do your blood test? I’m in sweden and would like to investigate which Coxsackie i’ve got - arminlabs only told me about A7 and B1....

Also, i ordered Dr Chia’s Equilibrant to Sweden, won’t it work?

At IMD Berlin. I never had custom issues