Coxsackie B4 - kill ‘em all

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

The pharmacokinetic calculations I did on fluoxetine indicate that this drug has negligible antiviral effect in vivo, except for in the brain, where it has some moderate antiviral effects for coxsackievirus B. The reason it effective in the brain relates to its unusual pharmacokinetics, where it accumulates in brain tissue at much higher levels than the rest of the body.

Dr Chia experimented with fluoxetine as a treatment for coxsackievirus B ME/CFS, but I heard no reports of him having any success. There was also at least one person on PR who tried fluoxetine, again without any success.

Either than means fluoxetine is not effective against non-cytolytic enterovirus in the brain, or it means the enterovirus brain infections found in ME/CFS patients may not be a key causal factor in ME/CFS.

Thank you... Damn

 

[Push Fwd]

I have another question regarding tenofovir and the different drugs containing it.

Besides the fact that truvada contains emtricitabine as well as tenofovir disoproxil, is there any difference between truvada and viread? 🤔
At least in germany truvada is much cheaper than viread and I'm wondering why. But from my understanding they should be equally effective in terms of enterovirus treatment (cause they contain the same amount of tenofovir disoproxil), shouldn't they?

Or is the something about emtricitabine that I'm not aware of?

I have to link @Hip again (sorry ☺)

 

[Hip]

Or is the something about emtricitabine that I'm not aware of?

I don't think the presence of emtricitabine would effect how tenofovir works, but I am not sure how well emtricitabine is tolerated, or if it has any significant side effects to be aware of. You would have to check that out.

 

[Push Fwd]

Thanks again @Hip 😊

 

[Dionyzius]

anyone here on normal-high doses of tenofovir/lamivudine/dolutegravir??

 

[Dionyzius]

The problem with Tenofovir is that it can’t cross the BBB. If the virus is in the brain, that could lead to resistance and wouldn’t be effective enough.

I think fluoxetine is very interesting but I can only find in vitro studies on enterovirus. Also I can't find the EC50. @Hip you said that it would not work in vivo?! Because of the concentration needed or why?

being on keto for me has extended duration of psychoactive drugs by manifold, this varies with drug of course but might be sth to try for drugs that don't cross the BBB or are rapidly metabolized

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

being on keto for me has extended duration of psychoactive drugs by manifold, this varies with drug of course but might be sth to try for drugs that don't cross the BBB or are rapidly metabolized

My concerns aren't the half life of the drug but that it wont work if coxsackie has also find a comfy space in my brain...

 

[Rvanson]

I’ve knew it from the beginning that I have it. No it’s confirmed with the Neutralizationtest.
Thing is: I find it very confusing how to treat it effectively. Joshua wants to kill it with Andrographis.

I have to say that I’m poor and can’t afford flying to Argentina and buy Ampligen or have multiple Interferon infusions. But I want to get rid of it.

Any ideas or better experiences are welcome.
Btw: In Germany you can’t get Dr. Chias Equilibrium

Thank you very much,

Ampligen does not cure CFS/ME, but it does get rid of it for a very long time. Why its not available in the US is the FDA likely. They have already made NAC unavailable. They have too much power and controlled by the medical corporations.

 

[Dionyzius]

My concerns aren't the half life of the drug but that it wont work if coxsackie has also find a comfy space in my brain...

i believe it has more to do with increasing lipophilicity of the drug to transport it across the BBB

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Hi 🙋‍♂️

I did a second test after three weeks to be sure. My titers went from 1:480 to 1:640. Are fluctuation common or did sth trigger it bc in the last weeks I’m deteriorating again.

Thank you!

 

[Push Fwd]

Hi 🙋‍♂️

I did a second test after three weeks to be sure. My titers went from 1:480 to 1:640. Are fluctuation common or did sth trigger it bc in the last weeks I’m deteriorating again.

Thank you!

Maybe some of the members with a diagnoted Coxsackie infection like @sometexan84 @Hip have an idea?

 

[Hip]

Maybe some of the members with a diagnoted Coxsackie infection like @sometexan84 @Hip have an idea?

I would not read too much into a one level rise or drop in viral titers. There is some inaccuracy in testing, and if you were at the border of one titer level and the next, then on retesting you may find you move up or down by one titer level.

If you move by two titer levels, then that might be more significant.

Titers fall in the sequence: 1:10 ... 1:20 ... 1:40 ... 1:80 ... 1:160 ... 1:320 ... 1:640 ... 1:1280 ... etc

Or else into the sequence: 1:8 ... 1:16 ... 1:32 ... 1:64 ... 1:128 ... 1:256 ... 1:512 ... 1:1024 ... etc

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I would not read too much into a one level rise or drop in viral titers. There is some inaccuracy in testing, and if you were at the border of one titer level and the next, then on retesting you may find you move up or down by one titer level.

If you move by two titer levels, then that might be more significant.

Titers fall in the sequence: 1:10 ... 1:20 ... 1:40 ... 1:80 ... 1:160 ... 1:320 ... 1:640 ... 1:1280 ... etc

Or else into the sequence: 1:8 ... 1:16 ... 1:32 ... 1:64 ... 1:128 ... 1:256 ... 1:512 ... 1:1024 ... etc

Good to have you! Thank you!

 

[sometexan84]

Hi 🙋‍♂️

I did a second test after three weeks to be sure. My titers went from 1:480 to 1:640. Are fluctuation common or did sth trigger it bc in the last weeks I’m deteriorating again.

Thank you!

I mean, there can be some inaccuracy like Hip said. But I'd still suggest multiple testing to monitor titers.

But there's always going to be fluctuation, it won't stay at the exact same viral levels forever, it's got to go up or down at some point.

Viral Titers - I think the higher the titers, the more accurate they will be. Like, from 1:320 to 1:640... the lab guy had to double the diluting solution, which had already been doubled like 5 times, before the antibodies were no longer detectable. So, I think that's important to remember

I've tested 3 times. I def need to get a 4th one done ASAP. It's just such a nightmare to get the ARUP testing done. But I'd retest at more like 3 month intervals instead of 3 weeks.

And I'd imagine there are a million things that could trigger the fluctuation, including combinations of a bunch of different things. Unless you get lucky and know of something you did, or started taking at that time, which might be able to explain things (exercise, steroid shots, new meds, etc), then there's really no way to know.

It's a good question though.. I wish I knew why exactly my Coxsackie B2 shot up in just a few months.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I mean, there can be some inaccuracy like Hip said. But I'd still suggest multiple testing to monitor titers.

But there's always going to be fluctuation, it won't stay at the exact same viral levels forever, it's got to go up or down at some point.

Viral Titers - I think the higher the titers, the more accurate they will be. Like, from 1:320 to 1:640... the lab guy had to double the diluting solution, which had already been doubled like 5 times, before the antibodies were no longer detectable. So, I think that's important to remember

I've tested 3 times. I def need to get a 4th one done ASAP. It's just such a nightmare to get the ARUP testing done. But I'd retest at more like 3 month intervals instead of 3 weeks.

And I'd imagine there are a million things that could trigger the fluctuation, including combinations of a bunch of different things. Unless you get lucky and know of something you did, or started taking at that time, which might be able to explain things (exercise, steroid shots, new meds, etc), then there's really no way to know.

It's a good question though.. I wish I knew why exactly my Coxsackie B2 shot up in just a few months.

I just wanted to be sure that it's not a lab error or a normal infection that's cleared by my immune system by itself before I start to treat it. That's why I waited only three weeks. I will monitor those titers for sure!

 

[Rim1]

I understand that patients who use tenofovir to treat ME/CFS may work up to 300 mg daily; though the acquaintance of mine with CVB4 who did well on it only used 150 mg daily. His story is in this post. Further info on tenofovir in my roadmap, if you search for the word tenofovir.

Just wondering with what mechanism tenofovir can work for enterovirus.
Maybe was the associated lamivudine that did the job against the CVB4?
Or maybe his main issue was a herpes virus like EBV which tenofovir has been shown to be a potent inhibitor?

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Just wondering with what mechanism tenofovir can work for enterovirus.
Maybe was the associated lamivudine that did the job against the CVB4?
Or maybe his main issue was a herpes virus like EBV which tenofovir has been shown to be a potent inhibitor?

There are studies on Tenofovir and CB4 if you want to dig deeper. I notice skepticism. Nobody tells you to follow this way ✌️🏼

 

[Rim1]

There are studies on Tenofovir and CB4 if you want to dig deeper. I notice skepticism. Nobody tells you to follow this way ✌️🏼

Absolutely no skepticism. All the contrary, tenofovir is the nr.1 on my list .
Just need to understand, how could that work.

 

[Hip]

Just wondering with what mechanism tenofovir can work for enterovirus.
Maybe was the associated lamivudine that did the job against the CVB4?
Or maybe his main issue was a herpes virus like EBV which tenofovir has been shown to be a potent inhibitor?

ME/CFS is always full of "maybes". Even if a drug or supplement works for some ME/CFS patients, it's very hard to know why it works. The cause of ME/CFS is unknown, even though ME/CFS is usually triggered by a viral infection. Without knowing the cause, it is hard to figure out how a drug benefits.

Tenofovir has moderate antiviral effects against EBV in vivo (but it's about 10 times less powerful than Valtrex, according to a pharmacokinetic calculation I did).

Tenofovir also has immunomodulatory effects which may be beneficial in ME/CFS. Plus it is antiviral for HERVs, which have been shown reactivated in some ME/CFS patients.

 

[Rim1]

ME/CFS is always full of "maybes". Even if a drug or supplement works for some ME/CFS patients, it's very hard to know why it works. The cause of ME/CFS is unknown, even though ME/CFS is usually triggered by a viral infection. Without knowing the cause, it is hard to figure out how a drug benefits.

Tenofovir has moderate antiviral effects against EBV (but it's about 10 times less powerful than Valtrex, according to a pharmacokinetic calculation I did).

Tenofovir also has immunomodulatory effects which may be beneficial in ME/CFS. Plus it is antiviral for HERVs, which have been shown reactivated in some ME/CFS patients.

Extract from https://www.pnas.org/content/117/22/12368 :
Here we show that the TFV prodrugs TDF and TAF are highly potent inhibitors of EBV lytic DNA replication. In cell-based assays, we demonstrate that TDF and TAF are significantly more potent than ACV and PCV. TAF is also more potent than GCV. Furthermore, we provide strong evidence suggesting that, like standard herpesviral drugs, these compounds target the EBV DNA polymerase.

Here it says it's highly potent inhibitor of EBV. Of course it's antiviral for HERVs also.
Remains enteroviruses, I was wondering if it can have an antiviral mechanism against them also. Don't think it gives such important improvements by its immunomodulatory properties (there are plenty immunomodulators out there, maybe much better than tenofovir which is an antiviral).