Coxsackie B4 - kill ‘em all

[Hip]

Thank you, @Hip. Somewhere I read that you have / had an b4 infection as well. Was there a treatment for you that got rid of it?

I tried oxymatrine without success, but oxymatrine does not work for everyone. I tried Epivir but did not notice much. I very much wanted to try tenofovir, which worked well for another ME/CFS patient with CVB4, but unfortunately had to stop taking it as it caused worsened mental health.

 

[Push Fwd]

I tried oxymatrine without success, but oxymatrine does not work for everyone. I tried Epivir but did not notice much. I very much wanted to try tenofovir, which worked well for another ME/CFS patient with CVB4, but unfortunately had to stop taking it as it caused worsened mental health.

Thank you again! I'm sorry to hear that. 😔

At the moment we think of trying tenofovir but there are many drugs containing it in different forms and some are quite expensive.
I read that tenofovir alafenamide is the safer option (but sure, expensive). Is there a recommended dose of it to treat a coxsackie infection effectively? Couldn't find something so far.

 

[Push Fwd]

I have lupus and hashimoto's in my family. I had very high hashimoto titers - anti-TPO & TgAb on a blood test. (My pcp still would not say I had hashi's though. )

However, I started the oxymatrine out of desperation in the beginning of October of 2019 and have used it daily ever since.

I don't think I have or am developing RA but I haven't been retested for that either. I just have no symptoms of what I think would be happening if I did. I've always had some joint pain which I think is caused by hyperjoint mobility issues. That hasn't gotten worse. My joints are not swollen at all. They just hurt like they always have.

Anyway, it's Martin's and your decision. You and he have to do what you think best for him.



I would be careful with inosine if he has the genes that naturally make more IL-6.

I talk about it in this post. If you can, read a few posts up too to get the full context of what I'm talking about. https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...cmafplus-com-in-hong-kong.79370/#post-2275989

That may be why some people do really well on it and others don't. (shrug)

Thank you, thats quite helpful. I really appreciate the recommendations as well as these notes where to be careful. 🙏

 

[Hip]

Is there a recommended dose of it to treat a coxsackie infection effectively? Couldn't find something so far.

I understand that patients who use tenofovir to treat ME/CFS may work up to 300 mg daily; though the acquaintance of mine with CVB4 who did well on it only used 150 mg daily. His story is in this post. Further info on tenofovir in my roadmap, if you search for the word tenofovir.

 

[max_yazhbin]

I have tried three kinds: The Alternative Medicine Solutions, The Tiger Brand, and Nature's health Ku Shen.

I get the biggest bump from the Alternative Medicine Solutions brand and buy from here: https://alternativemedicinesolution.com/oxymatrine/ (same product price as the other one I posted yesterday but check with them on shipping).

When I do the financial math the Tiger Brand and this location had the cheapest prices for me: https://www.acuatlanta.net/white-tiger-oxymatrine-84-tablets-1-gram-p-22021.html

I think they also do international shipping but check with them first esp for the cost of that.

I also felt something with their product though as I said maybe not as strongly as the Alternative Medicine but still good.

Wish @JohnnyMinnesota99 would input here too as I said earlier he also is in Germany and I believe he is using the Alternative Medicine brand so may know of cheaper places you could get it from there.

Edit: I may even switch back to the Tiger brand to save money now too.

That's neat, I already ordered oxymatrine from them and they said they will have it in a few weeks, glad to see other people have tried it and they think that brand is best.

 

[sometexan84]

My CVB4 titers were 1:160, then later down to 1:80. Not sure how relevant it is, but I was taking a probiotic w/ lactobacillus plantarum during that time, specifically for CVB4.

Think it was this one - Garden of Life Critical Care 80 Billion CFU Dr Formulated Probiotics (15 Probiotic Strains; Colon Health, Immune System)

 

[Push Fwd]

My CVB4 titers were 1:160, then later down to 1:80. Not sure how relevant it is, but I was taking a probiotic w/ lactobacillus plantarum during that time, specifically for CVB4.

Think it was this one - Garden of Life Critical Care 80 Billion CFU Dr Formulated Probiotics (15 Probiotic Strains; Colon Health, Immune System)

Did that improve your ME as well?

 

[sometexan84]

Did that improve your ME as well?

Not at all. I have CVB2 and Echovirus 11 at very high titers.

 

[Push Fwd]

Not at all. I have CVB2 and Echovirus 11 at very high titers.

I'm sorry to hear that 😔 And you couldn't treat the other Enteroviruses?

 

[sometexan84]

I'm sorry to hear that 😔 And you couldn't treat the other Enteroviruses?

I have some idea about controlling Echo 11, but CVB2 is beyond me.

 

[max_yazhbin]

@Martin aka paused||M.E., I have read the coxsackie virus documents I recommended and since I don't know the specifics of your presentation I cannot give a summary, too many possibilities. If you cannot read it, perhaps someone you know well and knows your specific symptoms can read it and decide what is a good path to follow.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

@Push Fwd

 

[Rim1]

I tried oxymatrine without success, but oxymatrine does not work for everyone. I tried Epivir but did not notice much. I very much wanted to try tenofovir, which worked well for another ME/CFS patient with CVB4, but unfortunately had to stop taking it as it caused worsened mental health.

You tried tenofovir disoproxil or tenofovir alafenamide ?

 

[Hip]

You tried tenofovir disoproxil or tenofovir alafenamide ?

I tried tenofovir disoproxil fumarate (TDF). That is the original form of tenofovir. Tenofovir alafenamide (TAF) is a new formulation.

A dose of 25 mg of TAF is equivalent to 300 mg of TDF, according to this study.

 

[mitoMAN]

I tried russian Arbidol for my Coxsackie B5 and it only fucked up my gut TOTALLY. Had immense pain. Carried through it for a month but it got worse daily so I stopped the treatment. No improvements at all.

I have 1:320 CVB5 tested three months apart consistently.

 

[Hip]

I tried russian Arbidol for my Coxsackie B5 and it only fucked up my gut TOTALLY. Had immense pain. Carried through it for a month but it got worse daily so I stopped the treatment. No improvements at all.

Ouch! Did the stomach pain go away eventually? I wonder if gastrointestinal issues are a known side effect of Arbidol?

 

[mitoMAN]

I googled for Arbidol side effects and also read the english translation of the sidepapers that came with it.
It says: no more side effects then placebo occured!

.... these russians! LOL. Yes I heard from @dreamydays that a few reported stomach pain from Arbidol

The problems took a few weeks to even out again but they did. Not only had I stomach pain but extreme bloating and bad stool.

 

[Hip]

these russians!

Reminds me of the Rasputin story: they put enough potassium cyanide in his wine to kill a herd of elephants, but it did not affect him in the slightest!

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

The problem with Tenofovir is that it can’t cross the BBB. If the virus is in the brain, that could lead to resistance and wouldn’t be effective enough.

I think fluoxetine is very interesting but I can only find in vitro studies on enterovirus. Also I can't find the EC50. @Hip you said that it would not work in vivo?! Because of the concentration needed or why?

 

[Hip]

I think fluoxetine is very interesting but I can only find in vitro studies on enterovirus. Also I can't find the EC50. @Hip you said that it would not work in vivo?! Because of the concentration needed or why?

The pharmacokinetic calculations I did on fluoxetine indicate that this drug has negligible antiviral effect in vivo, except for in the brain, where it has some moderate antiviral effects for coxsackievirus B. The reason it effective in the brain relates to its unusual pharmacokinetics, where it accumulates in brain tissue at much higher levels than the rest of the body.

Dr Chia experimented with fluoxetine as a treatment for coxsackievirus B ME/CFS, but I heard no reports of him having any success. There was also at least one person on PR who tried fluoxetine, again without any success.

Either than means fluoxetine is not effective against non-cytolytic enterovirus in the brain, or it means the enterovirus brain infections found in ME/CFS patients may not be a key causal factor in ME/CFS.