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Covid vaccine. Anyone not having it?

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TiredBill

Senior Member
Messages
335
You can still acquire and carry a substantial viral load even if you are vaccinated but not masked. The vaccine does not protect you from getting infected, it is only palliative. Effective? If it were effective they wouldn't be arguing over mandating boosters now. Safe? A safe vaccine requires years of extensive animal testing. The previous record was set by measles at 4 years. We have 8 months of data now, running tests on animals and humans concurrently under an EUA. FDA approval? Look up how many FDA approved drugs are withdrawn afterwards because of safety issues. In this country they call it regulatory capture. The FDA are horribly understaffed and underfunded, and people are resigning now because of political pressure. See the alzheimer's drug resignations in June, and the two FDA senior officers who resigned yesterday over boosters.

ALL THIS IS WHY the CDC playbook, was to quarantine and contact trace and buy time, not experimentally vaccinate into a pandemic. We may be forced to revert to that proven playbook by what we are doing now. In the meantime I plan to preserve my immune system as best I can. It has taken me years to talk it down off the ledge...

Not true. It is possible to carry a viral load after vaccinations, but it is also possible to entirely avoid getting infected (which is typically the case). Especially with a third dose.

Covid is deadly. That's beyond any reasonable doubt. There is no reasonable comparison of the risk of vaccination vs getting Covid.

Delta is a highly contagious virus that appears to cause ME/CFS or something very similar. I don't want to put others at risk of getting a devisting and potentially lifelong illness, when I can drastically cut the odds with a highly effective and safe vaccine.

Bill
 
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Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
If you're in the US and you think there's any chance your doctor would see other ME patients long-distance, could you PM me the contact info please? Thanks.

I am in the US but I do not have ME/CFS. I saw that doctor for a pre-surgery consult 6-months ago and she is a PCP. I discussed the vaccine w/her and she felt strongly that it was contra-indicated in my case (even though she is recommending it for 99% of her patients). I have three autoimmune diseases (plus MCAS) that are all in remission due to several years of infusions (to suppress the autoantibodies).

She felt that the vaccine could end my remission b/c it is so immune-stimulatory (which is the polar opposite of the years of treatments that put me into remission). I have now discussed this with three doctors (two who have treated me long-term plus the doctor who did my surgery consult) and all of them had the exact same opinion re: my case.
 

Aerowallah

Senior Member
Messages
131
Clearly, vaccines keep a lot more people from dying than they kill outright. But those of us with CFS know the choices are not so simple, and many human immune systems may not appreciate being experimented upon if there are alternatives.
 
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Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
An individual who is immuno-compromised would NOT receive the same medical advice as someone with a history of severe autoimmunity.

I have discussed my situation with an internist, an endocrinologist, an allergist/immunologist and also with the PCP who did my surgical consult. All of them have advised me not to get the vaccine (and this advice was specific to ME). Advice from the CDC for society at large is not individual medical advice. Even the CDC tells each person "to discuss with their individual physician".

I have an e-mail from my doctor from 2016 telling me that I should not get another vaccine (of ANY vaccine including a flu shot) because it would be incredibly dangerous to further stimulate my immune system.
 
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Revel

Senior Member
Messages
641
@TiredBill, the vaccines may be "safe" for the majority, but not for all of us and there has been some "collateral damage" along the way.

I, for one, suffered a GBS-type event (transient limb paralysis) as a direct result of my first Covid vaccine.

This was back in March, I am still nowhere near fully recovered. My GP and neurologist advised that I should not have the second dose.
 

TiredBill

Senior Member
Messages
335
You are a concerned and compassionate guy, Bill. Whatever you do, keep wearing a mask indoors...

Trust me, I wear well-fitted respirator grade masks anytime I'm around others in an indoor setting outside my home.

Bill
 
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Artemisia

Senior Member
Messages
232
I am in the US but I do not have ME/CFS. I saw that doctor for a pre-surgery consult 6-months ago and she is a PCP. I discussed the vaccine w/her and she felt strongly that it was contra-indicated in my case (even though she is recommending it for 99% of her patients). I have three autoimmune diseases (plus MCAS) that are all in remission due to several years of infusions (to suppress the autoantibodies).

She felt that the vaccine could end my remission b/c it is so immune-stimulatory (which is the polar opposite of the years of treatments that put me into remission). I have now discussed this with three doctors (two who have treated me long-term plus the doctor who did my surgery consult) and all of them had the exact same opinion re: my case.

Thank you.

Stay strong, everyone. Truth will win out in the end.
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,323
Yep, I can only see the odds working out in favor of not vaccinating if you "plan" to avoid COVID entirely, which with the delta variant starts to seem more and more difficult. I guess a homebound/bedbound ME/CFS patient could make the case for never catching the virus, but you would still have to be pretty strict with minimizing contacts to other people. If you catch the virus unvaccinated, it seems to me to always be a greater risk than vaccination.
 
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52
I am in the US but I do not have ME/CFS. I saw that doctor for a pre-surgery consult 6-months ago and she is a PCP. I discussed the vaccine w/her and she felt strongly that it was contra-indicated in my case (even though she is recommending it for 99% of her patients). I have three autoimmune diseases (plus MCAS) that are all in remission due to several years of infusions (to suppress the autoantibodies).

She felt that the vaccine could end my remission b/c it is so immune-stimulatory (which is the polar opposite of the years of treatments that put me into remission). I have now discussed this with three doctors (two who have treated me long-term plus the doctor who did my surgery consult) and all of them had the exact same opinion re: my case.

OH HOW I WISH I SAW THIS BEFORE I GOT VACCINATED.

I got way worse 2.5 months after my second Pfizer shot. I have never in my life experienced so much pain. I 1000000% think it was caused by vaccination. It triggered something related to autoimmunity, becaue my ANA came back positive.

Now they want me to have a third shot... I think I'll politely refuse.
 

roller

wiggle jiggle
Messages
775
The Covid vaccines have proven to be spectacularly successful and safe. Where Covid is potentially quite deadly.
50% of all vaccinated have sideeffects, at best its "just" a headache for 24hours+
did ever any other vaccine report such a high number of side effects?

only a very very few people have symptoms from a covid infection.
95% of them are older than 60.
2% of all infected die.
some german virologists doubt that 2%; say estimate is much too high.

quite like the "flu"?

there are possibly more damaging and deadly viruses and bacteria out there.
unfortunately, they seem highly "unpopular"...
 
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Jadzhia

Senior Member
Messages
148
Location
England, UK
The vaccine does not protect you from getting infected, it is only palliative. Effective? If it were effective they wouldn't be arguing over mandating boosters now. Safe? A safe vaccine requires years of extensive animal testing.

Very true, sadly these vaccines do not give sterilising immunity. They have not been extensively tested on 'people like us' and quite honestly I do not want to be a guinea pig. I don't believe any of the crazy stuff that gets posted on social media, but I do know that releasing a new vaccine during a pandemic is a huge experiment and no-one really knows what the outcome might be.

I decided some time ago not to go ahead with vaccination. I am housebound, my partner has been partially vaxxed. He had Covid mildly a year ago, was given an AZ jab back in March, but after that someone he knows died from a blood clot after having AZ so doesn't want another AZ but wants Pfizer/Moderna instead. At the moment the UK policy is same vaccine for both jabs, but I can see that changing. Meanwhile I discovered I have antibodies to the virus, I must have had it asymptomatically when my partner had it. So right now I am not willing to mess with my immune system. It dealt with Covid by itself and hopefully will do so again next time I encounter it, because that will happen sooner or later. There are no guarantees of course but that's the decision I feel most comfortable with.

I am soooo fed up of the 'vaccine shaming' going on against those not vaccinating. Some of us have very valid health concerns and I am not going to be dragooned into taking that risk just to satisfy other people and prove I'm not 'selfish' or indeed 'anti-vax'. Of course I am being selfish, I need to protect myself, after all I (and my partner) have to live with the outcome!
 

Jadzhia

Senior Member
Messages
148
Location
England, UK
Lots of people seem to embrace all sorts of "experimentation" on themselves on this forum.

You must know why this is, whether you agree with it or not. It's because the medical profession is sadly lacking in understanding CFS/ME or indeed many chronic diseases and autoimmunity. Some of us become desperate over time as we cannot get the help we need from medical professionals and instead, we turn to other sources. Not all those sources are good of course. But what else can we do? Sometimes I read of things people have tried and think 'whoa, that's a bit extreme' but then I remember I don't know the person behind the screen, their particular course through life, suffering from illnesses, treatments they've tried, etc. They have their reasons. This extends to whether they wish to receive a Covid vaccine or not.

This pandemic has highlighted one very clear thing, a huge lack of empathy towards others. I really thought this forum was different!
 

IThinkImTurningJapanese

Senior Member
Messages
3,492
Location
Japan
Covid is deadly. That's beyond any reasonable doubt.

As someone who has had it and subsequently contracted the Delta variant, all while dutifully wearing masks in public, I can confirm. SARS-CoV-2 is a very dangerous virus.

There is no reasonable comparison of the risk of vaccination vs getting Covid.

This is where I disagree with you. It sounds like you're saying that those who have a different opinion from you aren't reasonable, and without qualifying how it is that they aren't.

A ridiculous number of people vaccinated are now experiencing Covid infections. Look at Israel, Singapore. They've vaccinated the highest percentages of their populations. Yet they're experiencing rapid rates of infection, amongst the vaccinated.

Here in Japan, we're experiencing the highest rates of infection following the campaign to vaccinate everyone.

So, let's have a debate.
 
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TiredBill

Senior Member
Messages
335
As someone who has had it and subsequently contracted the Delta variant, all while dutifully wearing masks in public, I can confirm. SARS-CoV-2 is a very dangerous virus.



This is where I disagree with you. It sounds like you're saying that those who have a different opinion from you aren't reasonable, and without qualifying how it is that they aren't.

A ridiculous number of people vaccinated are now experiencing Covid infections. Look at Israel, Singapore. They've vaccinated the highest percentages of their populations. Yet they're experiencing rapid rates of infection, amongst the vaccinated.

Here in Japan, we're experiencing the highest rates of infection following the campaign to vaccinate everyone.

So, let's have a debate.

What is to debate? Delta is highly contagious. So contagious that there are breakthrough infections even among some who are vaccinated with two doses of Pfizer or Moderna and full doses of other vaccines.

But look at the degree of illness, hospitalization, and death in the vaccinated vs unvaccinated populations. The overwhelming number of people dying from Delta are unvaccinated.

Those who think they can evade exposure to Delta are taking a huge risk.

Delta is a very different virus in terms of contagiousness than the original variant.

Vaccines are still somewhat effective in reducing initial infection--but do seem to require a third dose to remain maximally effective for protection against infection, but all one needs to do to see the effectiveness against hospitalization and death is to look at the numbers.

Delta is mainly killing the unvaccinated. That really isn't a matter of debate or something that is unsettled.

Those who contract Delta are very likely to spread Covid. The R0 number is 6. That means on average each person who gets Delta will infect 6 more people.

This is a disease that not only puts people into ICU wards (where they are often ventilated) and often die, but it spreads an illness that appears to cause a ME/CFS-like illness.

I don't want to me part of someone else contracting ME/CFS if I can potentially avoid it by taking reasonable means, including being vaccinated with three doses--which have done me zero perceptible harm.

Bill
 

Jadzhia

Senior Member
Messages
148
Location
England, UK
Look at Israel, Singapore. They've vaccinated the highest percentages of their populations. Yet they're experiencing rapid rates of infection, amongst the vaccinated.

Here in Japan, we're experiencing the highest rates of infection following the campaign to vaccinate everyone.

Interested in this and not up on all the statistics - Can we put some of the rising rates of infection of double-vaccinated people in Israel down to their 3 week gap between doses (when arguably a longer gap promotes more immunity) and also that many months have now elapsed since the first people got their jabs, so that immunity is possibly waning now?

Also re Japan, have they gone down the same 3 week gap between doses route? Which vaccine/s have they used? As far as I understand it, Japan was tardy getting going with their vaccination program, is that correct?

I do think comparing countries is tricky as every population is different re their diet and genetics as well as the vaccination program followed, but it's all we have right now to try to get a sense of how things are going.

I will be interested to see how things pan out in my country (UK) this autumn, as the elderly/vulnerable here have had 11 weeks between doses (that later dropped for younger age groups to 8 weeks). There is talk of boosters but nothing concrete decided yet about who or when. Schools have just gone back here so that's another factor.
 

TiredBill

Senior Member
Messages
335
Japan has lagged far behind most of the industrialized world in vaccination rates. They only hit the 1% fully vaccinated mark in mid-May of this year and remain under 50% as of today.

The infection rate in Japan has increased--as in other places around the globe--thanks to the highly contagious nature of the Delta variant.

Bill
 

roller

wiggle jiggle
Messages
775
A ridiculous number of people vaccinated are now experiencing Covid infections. Look at Israel, Singapore. They've vaccinated the highest percentages of their populations. Yet they're experiencing rapid rates of infection, amongst the vaccinated.

Here in Japan, we're experiencing the highest rates of infection following the campaign to vaccinate everyone.

the following is in relation to a german article (something like "shingles after covid"), i havent read.
but there are some comments
no much agreement there, but for what i understand

- the vaccinated may be shedding (excreting) the spike protein.
- since its precisely the spike protein which is generated by the vaccine
- and then the spike protein is naturally excreted by the vaccinated
- the vaccine doesnt produce viruses

at least one argued the spike protein was somehow "toxic".
its suspected that "VITT", which seems to be Thrombozytopenia, is caused by the spike protein.
 
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