Covid vaccine. Anyone not having it?

[Jadzhia]

the vaccinated may be shedding (excreting) the spike protein.

Honestly I can't see how that could happen, but even if it did, so what? SARS-COV-2 needs more than its spike protein in order to cause an infection. The spike protein is just the way it binds to cells (the ACE2 receptor) but after that, it needs the rest of its RNA in order to manufacture more viral particles. So how could just the spike protein possibly cause infections in others?

As to whether the spike protein is toxic, have we any idea how long before our body degrades it? It may not survive very long at all once the immune system destroys it. So I can believe it could cause inflammation wherever it is in our body but not that it can affect other people in any way.

 

[TiredBill]

the following is in relation to a german article (something like "shingles after covid"), i havent read.
but there are some comments
no much agreement there, but for what i understand

- the vaccinated may be shedding (excreting) the spike protein.
- since its precisely the spike protein which is generated by the vaccine
- and then the spike protein is naturally excreted by the vaccinated
- the vaccine doesnt produce viruses

at least one argued the spike protein was somehow "toxic".
its suspected that "VITT", which seems to be Thrombozytopenia, is caused by the spike protein.

The notion that vaccinated individuals are "shedding" spike protein had been de-bunked by innumerable sources:

Previous fact checks by Reuters found coronavirus vaccines cannot “shed” or be passed from vaccinated to unvaccinated individuals (here), and debunked claims that vaccinated people are bioweapons or ‘ticking time bombs’ (here).

The website for the Centers and Disease Control Prevention (CDC) here says “vaccine shedding is the term used to describe the release or discharge of any of the vaccine components in or outside of the body. Vaccine shedding can only occur when a vaccine contains a weakened version of the virus”. CDC.gov reports that “none of the vaccines authorized for use in the United States contain a live virus.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/fac...pike-proteins-into-water-supply-idUSL2N2OB1OX

Bill

 

[roller]

thats correct bill...
none of the vaccine components are shed.

what these guy in the german forum meant was, that the spike protein, which is GENERATED in the body, may be shed.

the CDC doesnt talk about this.

 

[Jadzhia]

what these guy in the german forum meant was, that the spike protein, which is GENERATED in the body, may be shed.

Yes it's generated (translated from mRNA in the vaccine) in the body and will be recognised by the body as a foreign protein that must be eliminated, thus an immune response will follow sharpish. I can't see how it could be shed. I think this is poor fiction made up by people who know zilch about molecular biology.

 

[roller]

@Jadzhia
sounds, like you have more clue about molecular biology... (viruses?)
thats good, i have uncountable questions...

the spike protein will likely stay a "while" in the body.
do you think, this (from vaccine) generated spike protein could "cling / connect" to e.g. other viruses in the body ?

it does do "good" - its making antibodies for covid virus
what "bad" could it do ?

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

Also re Japan, have they gone down the same 3 week gap between doses route? Which vaccine/s have they used? As far as I understand it, Japan was tardy getting going with their vaccination program, is that correct?

That is correct, I think it was due to mistrust with foreign vaccines. That hasn't been helped by the contaminated Moderna vaccines that have resulted in several deaths.

I do think comparing countries is tricky as every population is different re their diet and genetics as well as the vaccination program followed, but it's all we have right now to try to get a sense of how things are going.

That's a good point, although this culture avoids sun exposure we consume considerable amounts of fish so Vitamin D levels tend to be sufficient. We also have very limited levels of obesity, another factor of risk with Covid.

 

[Jadzhia]

@Jadzhia
sounds, like you have more clue about molecular biology... (viruses?)
thats good, i have uncountable questions...

Don't get too excited! I do have a biochemistry degree (which included molecular biology) but it was decades ago so am very rusty! Still, this whole pandemic plus my own illness has resurrected my interest and the brain fog is beginning to clear enough on occasion for me to attempt to get back into it again. Of course, so much has been discovered in the interim years!

the spike protein will likely stay a "while" in the body.
do you think, this (from vaccine) generated spike protein could "cling / connect" to e.g. other viruses in the body ?

No, clinging doesn't sound feasible to me. Our immune system will be after it very quickly as it's a foreign invader, not 'self'. Are you thinking, could it reactive another virus, like EBV? Being infected with SARS-COV-2 can do that. Many things can reactivate EBV, even stress. I think getting ill with Covid is far more risky, to be fair.

it does do "good" - its making antibodies for covid virus
what "bad" could it do ?

That's the $64,000 question, isn't it! Does anyone really know? We have experts extolling how wonderful these vaccines are and won't hear any criticism, then we have what can only be described as nutters who think this is all up to a certain Mr Gates and the ability to get one's own WiFi connection! It's pretty hard to get a balanced view, and because it's a specialised field - virology, immunology - it's way over most people's heads (mine included). As a result I've been combing YouTube for reputable sources of info re the vaccines and can recommend Prof Shane Crotty of La Jolla Institute, his lab's work is outstanding and so are the papers coming out from there. But even that doesn't fully answer what we really need to know, mainly because the vaccine trials didn't include people with chronic illnesses like we have.

Part of what worries me is what else is in these vaccines. Pfizer's has PEG 2000 and AstraZeneca has Polysorbate-80. Not sure what Moderna has, I expect someone will know. They're not exactly friendly substances and some folk can react to them. As for the actual mRNA, well that doesn't live very long, it degrades quite fast, in days I believe. If you can tolerate the jabs then you should make antibodies to the spike protein. You won't make antibodies to any other parts of the virus because they aren't in the vaccine, which is why getting Covid means you will have a broader antibody response. Is that better? Jury's out. Prof Crotty believes having had Covid then getting an mRNA vaccine gives what he calls 'hybrid immunity' which is very strong. Still, if you haven't had Covid you don't want to rush out and get it just to prove him right or wrong!

If you want to learn about virology I can recommend Vincent Racaniello's online course on YouTube. Very interesting but if you haven't done any biochem or science before you may find some parts difficult. He runs the course every year, it's free. Or if you really like in-depth virology discussions he hosts TWiV, This Week in Virology, every Sunday.

 

[Jadzhia]

That is correct, I think it was due to mistrust with foreign vaccines. That hasn't been helped by the contaminated Moderna vaccines that have resulted in several deaths.

Oh no, that's awful!

 

[hapl808]

But even that doesn't fully answer what we really need to know, mainly because the vaccine trials didn't include people with chronic illnesses like we have.

Yes, this is my main complaint. They have done some trials in the past with flu vaccines and pwME and I believe they found pwME had 4x the adverse events, but that ALSO went for the placebo group. Which makes sense to me. A doctor's exam or blood test can trigger a crash for me, so I'm not surprised even a placebo can have more adverse effects than in a healthy person. That study was reassuring that the vaccine itself didn't seem to cause more than the placebo, but that was a traditional flu vaccine.

The first study I've seen that seems to take more into account a similar patient population was recently studies and looked at pwMS and found their risks did not increase. I believe they examines relapses in the 2 months prior and post vaccine. A bit surprised but reassured that there wasn't a statistically significant increase. However, it was also a very small sample size and MS is not the same of course.

https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/early/2021/08/17/jnnp-2021-327200

Being infected with SARS-COV-2 can do that. Many things can reactivate EBV, even stress. I think getting ill with Covid is far more risky, to be fair.

This is one of the big issues. I really wish we had more head-to-head data on vaccines and options, but likely at some point we have to choose and pull the trigger as COVID itself is likely to do more damage and our therapeutic research has been lacking. Also a shame that I can't look at some large studies almost a year after vaccines started getting approved and compare rates of side effects (or even improvements) among pwME or with Long Covid and then make an informed choice.

 

[5vforest]

I thought that this was a good article on the difficult decision for pwME to get vaccinated or not:

https://disabilityvisibilityproject.com/2021/09/07/high-risk-vaccine-hesitancy/

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

Israel is experiencing a significant outbreak in one of the most vaccinated populations in the world, casting doubt on the efficacy of the vaccines at preventing Covid infections.

Israel registers almost 11,000 COVID cases, marking new record

Israel registered close to 11,000 COVID-19 cases on Monday, the Health Ministry reported Tuesday, marking a new record since the start of the pandemic.

The number of patients in serious condition has remained stable, but with the new school year set to begin on Wednesday, officials fear there will be a further increase in infections.

“I expect that morbidity will rise further, but I hope it will not be a new outbreak,” Health Ministry Director-General Nachman Ash told Channel 12.



At least 10,947 new virus carriers were identified on Monday, with 7.65% of people tested returning a positive test. On only one other occasion since the beginning of the pandemic has the country recorded more than 10,000 cases. There were 10,118 on January 18, during the peak of the third wave, the most virulent and deadliest the country experienced.

There are about 83,000 active cases, compared with some 88,000 during the third wave, but the number of patients in serious condition and those who have died in August has been lower. At last count, 520 people had died in August, with a peak of 756 patients in serious condition, compared with more than 1,400 deaths in January and a record of some 1,200 patients in serious condition.

 

[TiredBill]

Israel is experiencing a significant outbreak in one of the most vaccinated populations in the world, casting doubt on the efficacy of the vaccines at preventing Covid infections.
Israel registers almost 11,000 COVID cases, marking new record

Saying that Israel's experience is casting doubt on the efficacy of the vaccines us simply not true not true.

Israel, unfortunately, has a significant portion of their population (haredi especially) who refuse to vaccinate or take the most basic precautions to stop the spread. Combined with a significant under 12 population only 58% of Israelis are vaccinated by the last count I've seen.

Delta hit Israel at the worst moment timing wise. They vaccinated early and second does were waning among the vaccinated. However, the vaccines have largely prevented hospitalization and death in the vaccinate and the vaccines have significantly cut the contagion rate--despite the high anti-vax/anti-vax contingent in their midst who fuel the pandemic.

Israel is responding by administering booster dose to bolster protection from infection against Delta. Health authorities there do not doubt the efficacy of the vaccines.

Bill

 

[TiredBill]

That is correct, I think it was due to mistrust with foreign vaccines. That hasn't been helped by the contaminated Moderna vaccines that have resulted in several deaths.

In Japan, like everywhere else Delta has hit, hospitalizations and death are concentrated in the unvaccinated population. Japan is losing about 70 people a day at this point to Covid.

There was contamination of a large batch of Moderna vaccines with what seems to be stainless steel fragments and the contaminated vitals were pulled once the discovery was made. 3 people who received shots from contaminated batches have died. A causal link between their deaths and the contamination has not been established.

To say these shots "caused" 3 deaths is a premature conclusion.

Vaccines will save lives in Japan as they will save lives around the world. If people take them--that is.

Bill

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

To say these shots "caused" 3 deaths is a premature conclusion.

That's correct.

 

[Wayne]

Here in Japan, we're experiencing the highest rates of infection following the campaign to vaccinate everyone.

Hi @IThinkImTurningJapanese -- I just saw on the news last night that COVID infections are 300% higher (in the U.S.) than they were a year ago at this time. It would seem that the goal of vaccinations to reduce infections doesn't seem to be working!

 

[TiredBill]

Hi @IThinkImTurningJapanese -- I just saw on the news last night that COVID infections are 300% higher than they were a year ago at this time. It would seem that the goal of vaccinations to reduce infections doesn't seem to be working!

Infections are up because too many people refuse to be vaccinated or live in places where vaccines are scarce and the Covid virus has mutated.

Delta is far more contagious than the original strain. It is becoming increasingly hard to avoid. Those who refuse to vaccinate are making up the large bulk of those who are hospitalized and dying.

Do you have a link for your 300% rate? Not in line with any news reports I've seen.

Bill

 

[hapl808]

The 300% sounds about correct - and likely due partially to relaxed or removed restrictions and of course Delta. Last year in September the USA saw 50k new cases per day. Right now we're around 150k per day. You can look at any graph to verify - Johns Hopkins, Reuters, etc. (Deaths were around 750 per day in Sep 2020, now at 1,500 per day). It remains to be seen what happens as we hit winter and the flu season.

Israel, unfortunately, has a significant portion of their population (haredi especially) who refuse to vaccinate or take the most basic precautions to stop the spread. Combined with a significant under 12 population only 58% of Israelis are vaccinated by the last count I've seen.

Israel is about at 61% fully vaccinated last I checked, plus another 5% or so partially vaccinated. And now getting significant booster coverage. They are no longer the most vaccinated country, but they still have a decent level compared to the rest of the world. Blaming it on under-vaccinated communities is probably oversimplifying the problem.

About half of hospitalizations in Israel are now in fully vaccinated people. This is unsurprising, as their most vulnerable community (seniors) is the most highly vaccinated. If 90% of a vulnerable population is vaccinated but makes up only 50% of hospitalizations, that shows the vaccines are still working. But I think they've reported maybe 80% effectiveness against hospitalization. Despite messaging 80% is not the same as 100%.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.c...s-in-israel-fully-vaccinated-study-finds.html

As for Japan, they have their worst outbreak - which is still 1/4 of the current rate in the USA and 1/8 of Israel's rate. Like most things with the pandemic, there are a myriad of factors involved and trying to simplify it down to one factor is not feasible.

We've oversold the vaccines in the USA as 'preventing' death or hospitalization. Like a seat belt, they greatly reduce the risk of hospitalization or death, they don't prevent it. This is an important distinction. An 80% reduction is still great and people forget that's higher than we initially hoped for with vaccine development, but somehow people have conflated 80% with 99% and that's a different risk calculation.

 

[TiredBill]

The 300% sounds about correct - and likely due partially to relaxed or removed restrictions and of course Delta. Last year in September the USA saw 50k new cases per day. Right now we're around 150k per day. You can look at any graph to verify - Johns Hopkins, Reuters, etc. (Deaths were around 750 per day in Sep 2020, now at 1,500 per day). It remains to be seen what happens as we hit winter and the flu season.



Israel is about at 61% fully vaccinated last I checked, plus another 5% or so partially vaccinated. And now getting significant booster coverage. They are no longer the most vaccinated country, but they still have a decent level compared to the rest of the world. Blaming it on under-vaccinated communities is probably oversimplifying the problem.

About half of hospitalizations in Israel are now in fully vaccinated people. This is unsurprising, as their most vulnerable community (seniors) is the most highly vaccinated. If 90% of a vulnerable population is vaccinated but makes up only 50% of hospitalizations, that shows the vaccines are still working. But I think they've reported maybe 80% effectiveness against hospitalization. Despite messaging 80% is not the same as 100%.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.c...s-in-israel-fully-vaccinated-study-finds.html

As for Japan, they have their worst outbreak - which is still 1/4 of the current rate in the USA and 1/8 of Israel's rate. Like most things with the pandemic, there are a myriad of factors involved and trying to simplify it down to one factor is not feasible.

We've oversold the vaccines in the USA as 'preventing' death or hospitalization. Like a seat belt, they greatly reduce the risk of hospitalization or death, they don't prevent it. This is an important distinction. An 80% reduction is still great and people forget that's higher than we initially hoped for with vaccine development, but somehow people have conflated 80% with 99% and that's a different risk calculation.

Some good information here, and thanks for that. But hospitalization and deaths from Covid in the United States are overwhelmingly concentrated among the unvaccinated population--a cohort that many would consider least at risk given their relative youth, etc.

The degree of protection against the more dire consequences of Covid offered by vaccines is very substantial, even if it is not perfect. The results exceed the highest expectations that public health officials hoped for when the vaccines were in development. They are saving lives.

Bill

 

[TiredBill]

The 300% sounds about correct - and likely due partially to relaxed or removed restrictions and of course Delta. Last year in September the USA saw 50k new cases per day. Right now we're around 150k per day. You can look at any graph to verify - Johns Hopkins, Reuters, etc. (Deaths were around 750 per day in Sep 2020, now at 1,500 per day). It remains to be seen what happens as we hit winter and the flu season.

So looking at the graphs makes it clear one can skew the perception of percentage shifts by how one picking the dates. In mid-September of last year the US was in a trough. But by early January (pre-vaccinations and with the complications of holiday gatherings) the 7 day average was over a quarter million new cases per day (which is significantly higher than today). Even with Delta (which is much more contagious) infection rates are down from their highs and not up 300%

As vaccinations became reality available (and pre-Delta) rates hit lows approximating 12,000 per day. Dropping precautions along with the arrival of Delta have sent rates back up to about 150,000 a day. 150,000 is not good, but it is less than 250,000 a day.

If we had better vaccination rates and better compliance with masking, we'd be in a better position than we are today.

Bill

 

[hapl808]

As vaccinations became reality available (and pre-Delta) rates hit lows approximating 12,000 per day. Dropping precautions along with the arrival of Delta have sent rates back up to about 150,000 a day. 150,000 is not good, but it is less than 250,000 a day.

Yes, I was specifically comparing to 'last year at this time' as was stated. I was not 'skewing' anything but answering your request for how that news story could be true. There's also some seasonality, so comparing to the previous year isn't unreasonable. September 2020, was also not a trough. The trough was in June 2020 at 20k cases per day and 500 deaths. The real spike started in November 2020 - I hope we don't see a worsening in 2021 as we head into flu season.

And yes, if we compare the end of the summer 2021 to the height of the holiday travel season pre-vaccine, it shows lower numbers. I'm not sure what that proves, other than that we are only a bit over half our peak infection rate. Which no one was claiming we were higher than our worst ever peak?

If we had better vaccination rates and better compliance with masking, we'd be in a better position than we are today.

Yes, this is true. More vaccination and masking would put us in a 'better' position, but there's no evidence it would eliminate risk or eradicate a global virus, just reduce that risk significantly. Same with other interventions - less events, no in-person schools, more social distancing. All things that would put us in a better position.