Coronavirus: what your country is doing, how you feel & general discussion

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

Edit: is there a reason for you to be so combative in the way you wrote that? I don’t really find it very courteous, or kind, the way you spoke to me.

I didn't mean to offend you. I did mean to challenge your point of view on a very serious issue though.

And I’m sure in some of these cases, if the person hadnt caught coronavirus, they wouldn’t have died.

How can you be sure?

 

[rainbowbluebells]

I didn't mean to offend you. I did mean to challenge your point of view on a very serious issue though.

How can you be sure?

Because at some point it will happen and has already happened. I know people who have died locally to me who have not had other conditions and were healthy, who was working normally, who died of coronavirus contracted at work. I have a friend whose grandfather died of coronavirus and up until he contracted it; he was healthy. If they didn’t have coronavirus; they wouldn’t have died at that moment in time, which is why cause of death was coronavirus.

As I wrote in my reply (a few replies above), of course at some point someone in the UK who catches coronavirus will die prematurely (ie they would still be alive at that moment if they hadn’t caught it). That’s why their cause of death will also be recorded as coronavirus (in at least one of the cases so far in the UK for the young people, the coroner has said the cause of death itself was coronavirus). That will happen to young people too and those without underlying conditions. I’m not sure what your contention is, because this information has been coming out from doctors in China and Italy who have said they have seen younger patients and to take it seriously. Here in the UK we have had doctors writing articles in the Independent, Guardian who have written about their great sadness about patients who would be alive now, if they hadn’t got coronavirus at that time. Even some who contracted it in hospital itself, rather than coming in with coronavirus.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

Because at some point it will happen

That is irrational, you're confusing probability with certainty.

 

[andyguitar]

(in at least one of the cases so far in the UK for the young people, the coroner has said the cause of death itself was coronavirus)

I hope you dont take this as an attack on you @rainbowbluebells but it usually takes a few weeks for a Coroner in the UK to investigate a death. Of course it is possible the process was speeded up. Also possible the Coroner did'nt give covid as a cause of death and the young woman died of a heart attack and covid had nothing to do with it.

 

[rainbowbluebells]

That is irrational, you're confusing probability with certainty.

It would be vanishingly, vanishingly unlikely for no one to get it, and die from that alone, given the large numbers of people who are getting exposed to it. (And we already know young people have got it and died from it, as China and Italy have reported). So that’s enough for me to feel sure people who are young or not would get it and die from that. Yes maybe not “mathematically” sure but enough to convince me.

But regardless, back in the real world we already do know people have got it. And died from it. And had that as a cause of deaths. Thousands have. Yes I may be mixing up probabilities and the real world; but I have severe ME and get brain fog and what I have been trying to say; unsuccessfully it seems to others, even with or without probabilities we already know what’s happening in the real world.

Edited post to make it clearer.

 

[rainbowbluebells]

I hope you dont take this as an attack on you @rainbowbluebells but it usually takes a few weeks for a Coroner in the UK to investigate a death. Of course it is possible the process was speeded up. Also possible the Coroner did'nt give covid as a cause of death and the young woman died of a heart attack and covid had nothing to do with it.

From an article that was posted here, or elsewhere; think it was the Independent, the family say the coroner have said cause of death was coronavirus.

 

[andyguitar]

but I have severe ME and get brain fog and what I have been trying to say; unsuccessfully it seems to others, even with or without probabilities we already know what’s happening in the real world.

You hav'nt been unsucessful in putting your points across @rainbowbluebells its just that opinions here differ. Thats the way it usually is, whatever subject is being debated.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

But regardless, back in the real world we already do know people have got it. And died from it. And had that as a cause of deaths. Thousands have. Yes I may be mixing up probabilities and the real world; but I have severe ME and get brain fog and what I have been trying to say; unsuccessfully it seems to others, even with or without probabilities we already know what’s happening in the real world.

But we don't, that's the frightening thing for so many of us. There is so much uncertainty about the course of this pandemic.

What I am suggesting is that we deal with what we do know.

 

[rainbowbluebells]

You hav'nt been unsucessful in putting your points across @rainbowbluebells its just that opinions here differ. Thats the way it usually is, whatever subject is being debated.

It did seem as if I was unsuccessful, because I kept saying much the same thing in each post which was stressful to me, not having much energy. It’s not really an opinion or difference of opinion of it, because people have died from the coronavirus, young people have died from the corona virus, ie those under Middle Aged or even middle aged (we have had information from Italy, China, now other countries too will add to that), because cause of death is put down as coronavirus. And even without looking at the real world, where we know it happens, the probability that it wouldn’t happen; is vanishingly small. But even without that, we know what happens in the real world.

I find it frustrating to talk about this as I don’t feel it’s a different opinion - it is people saying facts are not facts. A lady in the hospital near to me has died at a young age, contracting coronavirus at work; was completely healthy up until that point. My local hospital is completely overwhelmed, people contracting it, or coming into hospital in larger and larger numbers and more sadly dying. So yes I do find it frustrating when the reality is in front of me, when I know the situation locally and people who have lost loved ones to it as well.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

I find it frustrating to talk about this as I don’t feel it’s a different opinion - it is people saying facts are not facts.

I haven't said any such thing.

What I have said is that you don't know that,

Because at some point it will happen

 

[rainbowbluebells]

I haven't said any such thing.

What I have said is that you don't know that,

Because it is a fact that younger people have died from this illness and it will happen in the future too. Not everyone is over 70, or over 60 even, we know that from the death rate statistics and cases. Those people died because of the corona virus, as that was their cause of death. (Edited to remove unneeded sentence to make my post clearer).

I feel like I’m going round in circles.

 

[rainbowbluebells]

I’m going to leave it there because I don’t really have the energy to go into it anymore. Yes we don’t know a lot about the coronavirus but we do know some things. As Italy and other countries have said, young people can get it too and die from it too, so they should not think they are invincible. The danger shouldn’t be downplayed. I just hope this message gets out better to the world.

That’s all. I’ll leave it there now.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

I feel like I’m going round in circles.

Because you are.

You're arguing with me about things I haven't said.

 

[rainbowbluebells]

Because you are.

You're arguing with me about things I haven't said.

To clarify, You said I don’t know that (that some people would be alive if they didn’t get coronavirus). But I’ve said that I do know that, because not only the probability but the facts that it has happened.. and is happening, and will happen; that we have seen deaths happen and that being put down by coroners/doctors as the actual cause of death, so if they hadn’t got coronavirus in that moment, they wouldn’t have died of it. I mean we are in a coronavirus epidemic.

Ok for definite now, that’s my last post on this topic.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

To clarify, You said I don’t know that (that some people would be alive if they didn’t get coronavirus).

That's hardly clarifying.

In fact it's quite simple, go back and quote what I said.

 

[rainbowbluebells]

That's hardly clarifying.

?

I said (this is in relation to young people dying of corona):, “And I’m sure in some of these cases, if the person hadnt caught coronavirus, they wouldn’t have died.”

You said:
No you're not.

And I said: Yes I am. Because of all the reasons I wrote in all the subsequent posts. Not least because of the fact I know of someone locally who this happened to, as well as the fact people under 70 or 60 have this as their actual cause of death, and that’s what they died from at that particular moment, so on. Not going to repeat what I’ve said a lot already.

Later you quoted again; and said, how can you be sure?

Later when I talked about we do know things from the real world etc (post a few posts above), you said we don’t, and we should deal with things that we know.

So how am I not clarifying? I just said that.

Seriously, this forum is stressful. Edit to add: I think it’s better to leave it now.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

Seriously, this forum is stressful.

Absolutely.

 

[PatJ]

"Second, covid-19 infection has been associated with multiple direct and indirect
cardiovascular complications including acute myocardial injury, myocarditis, arrhythmias and venous
thromboembolism." (american college of cardiology)

This article on the New York Times provides some information about heart damage from coronavirus:

A report on heart problems among coronavirus patients in Wuhan, China, was published in JAMA Cardiology on Friday.

The study, led by Dr. Zhibing Lu at Zhongnan Hospital of Wuhan University, found that 20 percent of patients hospitalized with Covid-19, the illness caused by the coronavirus, had some evidence of heart damage.

Many were not known to have underlying heart disease. But they often had abnormal electrocardiograms, like the patient in Brooklyn, in addition to elevated troponin levels, which sometimes soared to levels seen in patients with heart attacks.

The risk of death was more than four times higher among these patients, compared with patients without heart complications.
...

It is possible — but not yet established — that myocarditis results from an immune system that lurches out of control while trying to turn back the coronavirus, pumping out such excessive levels of chemicals called cytokines that cause inflammation that they damage the lungs and the heart alike.

The condition, called a cytokine storm, is more serious in older people and in people with underlying chronic diseases, Dr. Solomon said. It is the primary reason for the severe respiratory complications that can lead to death in patients with the coronavirus.

Cytokines also promote blood coagulation and interfere with the body’s clot-busting system, said Dr. Peter Libby, a cardiologist at Harvard Medical School. Blood clots in coronary arteries can block blood flow and cause heart attacks.

Another possibility, Dr. Libby said, is that some coronavirus patients develop heart problems as a consequence of infections in their lungs.

 

[pattismith]

it seems that China is currently reopening Wuhan after the 2 months lockdown...

You can see that workers at the station are very well protected and that all common people travelling are wearing a mask.
I'm sure that we will see this in our western countries soon! (I'm sure we won't, as our doctors and nurses are still lacking masks...)

 

[nyanko_the_sane]

Some reddit posts of interest:

https://www.reddit.com/r/cfs/comments/fiqhae

https://www.reddit.com/r/cfs/comments/fmjf00/a_quick_covid19_update/

https://www.reddit.com/r/cfs/comments/foatez