Coronavirus: what your country is doing, how you feel & general discussion

[Learner1]

My husband went to Costco by their headquarters here in Seattle today, just to check it out.

He was amused they had orange cones 6 feet apart OUTSIDE the front door, where people could wait, individually in 40 degree weather, for their turn to go in, letting only a few people in the store at a time.

He learned that they hsd no toilet paper, hand sanitizer or disinfectant and the restaurant was serving "only limited items" which seemed to be pizza in a closed box...

At least its an alternative to Amazon...

 

[Sarah94]

So 200 top scientists wrote an open letter to the govt saying they have to bring in social distancing strategies immediately. And change their plan as it would cause excess deaths and they were very concerned. And pointed out herd immunity doesn’t make sense.

http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia/UK_scientists_statement_on_coronavirus_measures.pdf

In addition 100 behavioural scientists wrote an open letter saying the behavioural fatigue nudge unit stuff didn’t make sense.

then less than an hour later, Robert Peston, Who has a weird new role as someone who breaks all of the govts news before the govt themselves release it officially, and he tweets it - it’s really weird, like he’s testing the water to see how the public reacts.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-14...ime-style-mobilisation-to-combat-coronavirus/

not good enough imo. Social distancing measures still at least over a week to go. Over a week of uncontrolled spread? Within a week we will have many thousands of cases and many deaths. And even then only closed for a “few weeks”. The UK govt is so stubborn. It’s more important to the UK to always be “right”, to be the “best”, than to do the right thing and admit they were or could be wrong.

I’m not sure but it seems to me they’re continuing with herd immunity but with the elderly people being “cocooned”.

I agree with you, but I wouldn't say "200 top scientists". I had a look at the list, and a fair number of them are PhD students.

 

[rainbowbluebells]

I agree with you, but I wouldn't say "200 top scientists". I had a look at the list, and a fair number of them are PhD students.

Yes sorry - although by now I may be right! As the number of scientists has now jumped to 322 - a very good number of them are professors and lecturers, and teaching fellows now. And now 33 scientists from abroad too!

EDIT: 420 scientists now.

 

[rainbowbluebells]

One very good thing the UK government is doing is commanding industry to make more ventilators:

Source: here

Normally the death rate of SARS-CoV-2 is around 1%, if intensive care treatment is available, and in particular, ventilators, which are the crucial life-saving piece of equipment. But when there are not enough ventilators, the death rate goes up to 3 or 4%. This is what they found in Italy, where doctors had to decide on who lives and who dies, because they did not have enough ventilators.

Other countries are doing similar:

Source: here



The strategy we need is delaying the pandemic so that hospitals are not overloaded, and ensuring we have enough ventilators.

Im happy to hear that, as until yesterday we hadn’t heard he was ordering any - infact Faisal Islam, who had posted much earlier yesterday saying none had been ordered and comparing them to other countries - and then last night many hours later we got the press release (or rather the breaking news by Robert Peston “leak” via social media, at 9pm) that he was going to. Seems to be a bit of a pattern with our PM.

 

[pattismith]

The strategy we need is delaying the pandemic so that hospitals are not overloaded, and ensuring we have enough ventilators.

yes, but to delay the pandemic, you have to quickly close public confined places (museum, restaurants, etc) and to give people meeting other people some mask (OR AT LESS TEACH THEM HOW TO DO HOME MADE MASK).
In France government insisted first that mask are useless (just because they havn't enought of them!), and the restaurants, shops were just declared closed from today to until further notice….
Two days ago, I know from a friend that there was a panic in Toulouse hospital where they suddenly canceled medical appointements that were not considered emergencies, because some medical departments (like hearing care or sports medicine or others), are requisitioned to increase the capacity for coronavirus ill patients. This means the epidemic is exploding and they just didn't understand it would be so violent until that day.

 

[rainbowbluebells]

yes, but to delay the pandemic, you have to quickly close public confined places (museum, restaurants, etc) and to give people meeting other people some mask (OR AT LESS TEACH THEM HOW TO DO HOME MADE MASK).
In France government insisted first that mask are useless (just because they havn't enought of them!), and the restaurants, shops were just declared closed from today to until further notice….

Oh gosh the situation sounds terrible in France. It’s all exploding one by one in each country.

YES. This. How can we say we are delaying the pandemic when there are NO social distancing measures. Cheltenham festival just Finished. Pubs clubs museums shops shopping centres restaurants, everything under the sun, everything still open all over the UK.
Mass gatherings - some of them - to close by next weekend. One whole week. Numbers could have gone into the many thousands by then, many more deaths. There’s no point to the govt saying something and taking us all for fools.

 

[pattismith]

Oh gosh the situation sounds terrible in France. It’s all exploding one by one in each country.

YES. This. How can we say we are delaying the pandemic when there are NO social distancing measures. Cheltenham festival just Finished. Pubs clubs museums shops shopping centres restaurants, everything under the sun, everything still open all over the UK.
Mass gatherings - some of them - to close by next weekend. One whole week. Numbers could have gone into the many thousands by then, many more deaths. There’s no point to the govt saying something and taking us all for fools.

you just have to sit and wait that members of your parliament and of your government start to get sick (and probably seriously if they are old)...As they don't wear any mask and keep meeting others, it will soon come...You will see things will change at that time!

 

[rainbowbluebells]

One thing I worry about is the Testing. We’ve heard really good things about South Korea’s testing system. Testing every case they can, contact tracing. 20,000 tests a day. Which is huge. In the UK around 1000 a day and sometimes even that drops. We have a much larger population than South Korea.

Tracing and isolation: Up until recently, the uk govt policy was testing people from countries like north Italy, China. Iran if they developed symptoms within 14 days of coming back from there. Or people who has been in v close contact with a confirmed case. And then they trace everyone that person may have come into contact with. And go into self isolation.

Now as of last Thursday. No testing of people coming from abroad with symptoms. So if you came from Italy and you have symptoms NO TEST. So even if you have it and others came into contact with you , they wouldn’t even know, so they’ll go around doing their own thing, including going into work .. school... see friends.. pubs.. restaurants... until they get ill perhaps up to 14 days later. No testing of anyone in Community with symptoms. ONLY if you get so sick that you end up admitted to hospital eg with pneumonia you get tested. Even other people who are very sick with symptoms who go to hospital, but are not having lungs filled up with pneumonia, won’t get tested. This is scary.

because it’s directly AGAINST advice of WHO.
Doctors who have come into contact with confirmed covid patients don’t know it. They keep carrying on their jobs. See more patients. Vulnerable patients. Get them infected

my honest opinion is that the UK is in more danger than we could ever imagine. I can see a situation worse than Italy here Unless something really dramatic changes. Like Patti Smith says. Maybe if the decision makers themselves get ill they might see sense. We had time to do this all early, as we know experience of other countries, but we are missing it

See what doctors are saying:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1239074084371271681

Britain goes it alone over coronavirus: https://amp.theguardian.com/comment...&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

 

[rainbowbluebells]

And more on what I said about testing: WHO calls for all countries to test

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-herd-immunity-who-uk-cases-map-a9402051.html

 

[pattismith]

@rainbowbluebells
very few people are tested here in France either. Even people going to hospital.
Government himself told that not every patient will be tested.
A nurse told me that one ill patient going to an hospital in the south of France was tested against flu, but not corona. They said the flu test was negative, that's all. Of course they know if it's contagious and if it's not the flu, it's likely corona, but how will they count that patient in the statistics?
Will he be tested if he dies?
If a very old people with cardiac disease dies from cardiac arrest after catching corona, will he be counted as a corona death?
Both the corona infected and dead people are likely much underestimated here in France.
Most patients are given a bronchitis diagnosis by GP, they don't ask them to isolate….so they can still spread this highly contagious virus everywhere.

People with ME/CFS are used to isolation, so we will be the best to avoid the virus, but please, wear a mask and gloves if you need to go in public places and meet people.

 

[rainbowbluebells]

@rainbowbluebells
very few people are tested here in France either. Even people going to hospital.
Government himself told that not every patient will be tested.
A nurse told me that one ill patient going to an hospital in the south of France was tested against flu, but not corona. They said the flu test was negative, that's all. Of course they know if it's contagious and if it's not the flu, it's likely corona, but how will they count that patient in the statistics?
Will he be tested if he dies?
If a very old people with cardiac disease dies from cardiac arrest after catching corona, will he be counted as a corona death?
Both the corona infected and dead people are likely much underestimated here in France.
Most patients are given a bronchitis diagnosis by GP, they don't ask them to isolate….so they can still spread this highly contagious virus everywhere.

People with ME/CFS are used to isolation, so we will be the best to avoid the virus, but please, wear a mask and gloves if you need to go in public places and meet people.

So awful. My god Why are countries doing this, yes it keeps numbers down but so many people are going to be affected more and needless deaths.

That’s why the WHO says everyone needs to be tested and contact traced and isolated. We all need to be following the lead of South Korea.

“ From South Korea, we have learnt that basic public health measures, such as extensive testing, can help measure the size of the problem, establish where the confirmed cases are, how transmission chains are occurring and, therefore, how to break them. From Singapore and China, we have learnt that contact tracing is essential, whether in the household, or within the community. This helps us to understand who could have been exposed and ensure that all are informed so that they immediately self-isolate.”

 

[rainbowbluebells]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1239164446628446218

 

[rainbowbluebells]

Hi, @Inara Am I correct in remembering that you are from Germany? Is there anyone else here in Switzerland?

Our health minister came on the TV and said the UK is following the same plan as Germany and Switzerland.

Is this true? What’s going on in Germany and Switzerland? I thought some things were getting closed in Germany and it was going towards a full lock down?

Are you following a herd immunity plan? (Anyone from Germany or Switzerland)?

 

[Inara]

Hi, @Inara Am I correct in remembering that you are from Germany? Is there anyone else here in Switzerland?

Yes, I'm from Germany.

What’s going on in Germany and Switzerland?

In my opinion? They know the virus will spread to ca. 70% of the population; that will happen. They only apply methods to slow down the infection rate in order to not overwhelm the health system.

There is barely testing. I am pretty sure they lie about the death rate. So yes, I guess it's comparable to UK, only that UK was truthful about their "herd immunity" approach, and Germany isn't, in my view.

My impression is that people mostly think this is hype, and they don't see a need for changing their behavior (the government asks the population to do things, they recommend, it's not a must), while some portion of the population panics and buys food for weeks. My impression is that those who think it's hype laugh about those who think it's not. My impression is most people don't give a damn.

Are you following a herd immunity plan?

If so this wasn't said openly, as in the UK.
But as said above, now that you ask it seems Germany does.

 

[Hip]

In France government insisted first that mask are useless (just because they havn't enought of them!)

That's the impression I have: they are saying masks are useless, because they don't want to create a shortage from panic buying, which would then mean there are not enough masks for frontline healthcare workers, who obviously need them the most.

Cheap surgical masks (which normally cost about 1p each) possibly may not help a great deal, but respirator masks like the FFP2 or FFP3 masks (and their US equivalents N95 and N99) most likely do, provided that you wear them properly, ensuring they are close-fitting.

Though I suspect even surgical masks would be useful to help prevent you touching your face. One study found that people will typically touch their face once every 3 minutes, and it's very hard to stop doing this. But a surgical mask would stop you touching at least your mouth and nostrils. Of course, after being touched itself, the surgical mask will also become contaminated, so you might have to replace it with a fresh mask every few hours.

A better strategy might have be to command industry to make more of these masks.

 

[Hip]

Interesting article:

A study published in the Lancet found that:

Patients sickened with coronavirus may be infectious for up to five weeks after they first fall ill, a new study has found. Researchers from China discovered that people could live with virus in their respiratory tracts for as long as 37 days.

That's 2.5 times as long as the mandatory two-week isolation period required by most healthcare experts.

The shortest amount of time someone was infectious was eight days and the longest amount of time was 37 days.

And a German study found infected patients shed large amounts of the virus before symptoms appear.

This means that when people only showed minor symptoms, such as fatigue or a cough, it was still easy to spread the virus to others.

 

[pattismith]

That's the impression I have: they are saying masks are useless, because they don't want to create a shortage from panic buying, which would then mean there are not enough masks for frontline healthcare workers, who obviously need them the most.

Cheap surgical masks (which normally cost about 1p each) possibly may not help a great deal, but respirator masks like the FFP2 or FFP3 masks (and their US equivalents N95 and N99) most likely do, provided that you wear them properly, ensuring they are close-fitting.

Though I suspect even surgical masks would be useful to help prevent you touching your face. One study found that people will typically touch their face once every 3 minutes, and it's very hard to stop doing this. But a surgical mask would stop you touching at least your mouth and nostrils. Of course, after being touched itself, the surgical mask will also become contaminated, so you might have to replace it with a fresh mask every few hours.

A better strategy might have be to command industry to make more of these masks.

To be correct, they said first that surgical mask were useless, then some weeks later they said a new study was released to compare surgical mask with FFP2 to protect against coronavirus and found them with a similar efficiency.
That said they explained that there is not enough mask for everybody, so they requisition it for the medical professionals.
On the other hand they denied the need for everyone to wear one, just the older people and those with health/lung diseases/immune deficiency/cancer (people at risk for severe SRAS). They said they can ask a prescription from their doc in order to buy masks at the pharmacy.
My husband has leukemia, so I asked the pharmacist if he had any mask available for patient with a prescription, he said he hasn't got any….

They didn't communicate about the importance of masks to slow down the epidemic, because it could cause people to panic and rush into hospitals/nurse practices/veterinary practices to steal them.

Masks could have changed things, because as you said you behave differently when you wear it. You stop touching your face. You don't socialize as much, you keep naturally more distance with others. Everyone wearing a mask keep in his mind that there is a danger floating around that need to be adressed.

Medical professional were told to keep glasses and mask (even a surgical one) + a mask to the coughing patient.
So if the people in front of you doesn't wear a mask and is coughing, either you give him a mask, either you must wear yourself a second mask for a better protection.

Hopefully many tutos on the net can help you to do your own homemade masks. you can even do it with cotton cloth and wash it. Before the era of disposable masks, surgeons were all using these washable ones.

 

[rainbowbluebells]

Yes, I'm from Germany.


In my opinion? They know the virus will spread to ca. 70% of the population; that will happen. They only apply methods to slow down the infection rate in order to not overwhelm the health system.

There is barely testing. I am pretty sure they lie about the death rate. So yes, I guess it's comparable to UK, only that UK was truthful about their "herd immunity" approach, and Germany isn't, in my view.

My impression is that people mostly think this is hype, and they don't see a need for changing their behavior (the government asks the population to do things, they recommend, it's not a must), while some portion of the population panics and buys food for weeks. My impression is that those who think it's hype laugh about those who think it's not. My impression is most people don't give a damn.


If so this wasn't said openly, as in the UK.
But as said above, now that you ask it seems Germany does.

This is very upsetting to hear. It doesn’t have to be a “given” that it will spread to 70% of the population. Would they say the same thing if it was polio? Every resource should be put into stopping this thing. I don’t hear South Korea or China saying it will spread to 70% of their people. I see South Korea testing 20,000 people a day. I see rates of transmission coming down, sometimes massively, in some countries.

How awful. I’m sorry it’s like that there too

Is there no closures of things? If there’s not enough tests then as you say, there’s no way of knowing and deaths won’t be reporting and no contact tracing.

 

[rainbowbluebells]

That's the impression I have: they are saying masks are useless, because they don't want to create a shortage from panic buying, which would then mean there are not enough masks for frontline healthcare workers, who obviously need them the most.

Cheap surgical masks (which normally cost about 1p each) possibly may not help a great deal, but respirator masks like the FFP2 or FFP3 masks (and their US equivalents N95 and N99) most likely do, provided that you wear them properly, ensuring they are close-fitting.

Though I suspect even surgical masks would be useful to help prevent you touching your face. One study found that people will typically touch their face once every 3 minutes, and it's very hard to stop doing this. But a surgical mask would stop you touching at least your mouth and nostrils. Of course, after being touched itself, the surgical mask will also become contaminated, so you might have to replace it with a fresh mask every few hours.

A better strategy might have be to command industry to make more of these masks.

Surgical masks also do help with droplet spread. I bought a box of surgical masks as I could not get the other types of masks and also wouldn’t be sure if they would fit properly and also worried about breathing issues wearing them.

I Also bought a washable cloth mask.

 

[rainbowbluebells]

Symptoms - This illness is not mild, by accounts I’m seeing. Really worrying because again, like so many others I’ve heard about, this man’s wife was not tested despite being very sick. Shortness of breath, fever etc.

Oh, and she wasn’t put on the official figures as a case. Since she wasn’t tested. Despite paramedic confirming she had it.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238969032528855041