Coronavirus Vaccine(s)

[bertiedog]

Do you understand the difference between the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines with the RNA vs. the AstraZeneca vaccine with the "adenovirus vector" (beyond that they do not contain eggs)?

From my limited understanding the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines are using a similar technique which is to prime the immune system to attack the spike protein of the virus, there is no live virus present and you cannot catch Covid at all from this, any reactions would be due to the ingredients in the vaccine or one's immune system reaction to the vaccine and mild side effects seem pretty common in the trials with things like mild fever, headache, body aches but only lasted a day or so.

The Astra Zeneca vaccine is more like a traditional vaccine. Here is an extract from the Financial Times -
"It is based on a harmless adenovirus from a chimpanzee, which has been engineered in the lab to include genes from Sars-Cov-2, the coronavirus that causes Covid-19. When the genetically modified adenovirus is injected into human cells, they make coronavirus proteins that prime the immune system to respond to future infections with Sars-Cov-2.: Of course the Astra Zeneca vaccine hasn't been approved yet, it is believed that the regulating authorities might be asking for further trial information regarding what is the best dosage because there was an error in one of the trial samples when only a half dose was given for the first vaccine and the full dose was given up to a month later. This brought its efficacy up to 90%. However this was only used in trial participants that were under 55 years of age which raises questions.

The scientists involved think that possibly the lower dose primes the immune system and then the full dose means there is a very strong antibody reaction that should last a longer time. (Nobody knows yet with any of the vaccines how long the antibodies will last for).

My understanding is that there are over 20 other vaccines in development against Covid.

When I last looked regarding Thimerasol I think I read that it is sometimes still used for the flu vaccine in the US but things could have changed from the last time I looked. It would seem that these days the adjuvant most often used is aluminium salts but I haven't seen a list of ingredients in the Pfizer/Moderna/Astra vaccines. I don't like the idea at all of aluminium being injected into me but when I heard the explanation that the amount involved was no bigger than a grain of salt I relaxed.

Hope this helps a bit.

Pam

 

[Sushi]

Ingredients in the Pfizer vaccine:

WHAT ARE THE INGREDIENTS IN THE PFIZER-BIONTECH COVID-19 VACCINE?
The Pfizer BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine includes the following ingredients: mRNA, lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.

https://selfservehosteu.pfizer.com/pfrrdownload/file/fid/77051

 

[Gingergrrl]

Your choice is legitimate, you're the one who will live with the consequences. I'm glad to hear that you feel validated in that choice.

Thanks although I think I might not have explained it well! I didn't mean that I "felt validated" vs. that the actual science has now validated/confirmed some of my concerns because now both the FDA and Pfizer have said that the (Pfizer) COVID vaccine is not safe for anyone w/history of serious allergic reactions, anaphylaxis, or who carries an EpiPen and that people in that group should not get the vaccine. So now if I am in a situation where I am asked to take the Pfizer vaccine, the science itself validates my situation and I won't have to try to explain about MCAS (or any of my other chronic medical conditions). That is what I was trying to say.

The Astra Zeneca vaccine is more like a traditional vaccine. Here is an extract from the Financial Times -"It is based on a harmless adenovirus from a chimpanzee, which has been engineered in the lab to include genes from Sars-Cov-2, the coronavirus that causes Covid-19.

Is this common that vaccines (prior to COVID) were made from an adenovirus from a chimpanzee or other animal? Does this one contain some of the actual COVID virus unlike the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines?

I am still trying to figure out which type of vaccine might trigger the biggest immune response or is the most immuno-stimulatory?

It would seem that these days the adjuvant most often used is aluminium salts but I haven't seen a list of ingredients in the Pfizer/Moderna/Astra vaccines.

Thanks and I am trying to find out if all the vaccines have the same adjuvants (like thimerisol, aluminum salts, etc).

Hope this helps a bit.

It definitely does and I really appreciate it. I still have not had a chance to start the research that I plan to do re: vaccines and autoimmunity but I should be able to do it next week.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

the amount involved was no bigger than a grain of salt I relaxed.

What matters is the micrograms or weight of aluminum....and the amount already carried in your body if its accumlating. Our bodies may not be rid of heavy metals very well.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Ingredients in the Pfizer vaccine:

antifreeze-type products

 

[JES]

Thanks and I am trying to find out if all the vaccines have the same adjuvants (like thimerisol, aluminum salts, etc).

The Pfizer vaccine doesn't contain any adjuvants (source) as they are basically not needed in mRNA vaccines, so that's one less worry. I'd assume the same holds true for Moderna as it's a similar type of vaccine.

As @bertiedog pointed out, there are some concerns regarding the efficacy of the Astra Zeneca vaccine. It might not be a good candidate if it turns out efficacy is not much better than 50%, but I guess we'll find out soon if it gets approved or not.

 

[ljimbo423]

Here is a list of ingredients and the amounts of each in the Pfizer vaccine. As @JES points out, there aren't any adjuvants in it.

Experts say the ingredients in the COVID-19 vaccine developed by Pfizer and German partner BioNTech, which was authorized Friday by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, looks pretty standard for a vaccine.

In a letter to the FDA, Pfizer listed the ingredients in its vaccine. They can be organized into four basic categories:

Active Ingredient

• 30 mcg of a nucleosidemodified messenger RNA (modRNA) encoding the viral spike (S) glycoprotein of SARS-CoV-2.

Fats

• lipids (0.43 mg (4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 0.05 mg 2[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 0.09 mg 1,2-distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine, and 0.2 mg cholesterol)

Salts

• 0.01 mg potassium chloride
• 0.01 mg monobasic potassium phosphate
• 0.36 mg sodium chloride
• 0.07 mg dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate

Sugar

• 6 mg sucrose

Reference

 

[Pyrrhus]

antifreeze-type products

Yup, because freezing can degrade the mRNA, so antifreeze lipids are used to preserve the mRNA.

 

[Gingergrrl]

antifreeze-type products

Yup, because freezing can degrade the mRNA, so antifreeze lipids are used to preserve the mRNA.

Is this brand new (using antifreeze in a vaccine) or has it been done before?

The Pfizer vaccine doesn't contain any adjuvants (source) as they are basically not needed in mRNA vaccines, so that's one less worry.

Here is a list of ingredients and the amounts of each in the Pfizer vaccine. As @JES points out, there aren't any adjuvants in it.

Thank you @JES and @ljimbo423 and I didn't realize that the Pfizer vaccine did not contain adjuvants- which is one good thing! I wonder if without adjuvants it is less likely to cause autoimmune reactions? Does this mean that it does not contain the small grain size amount of aluminum after all?

 

[Gingergrrl]

On a separate note, I saw several stories today on the news re: the Pfizer COVID vaccine causing Bell's Palsy (which causes facial paralysis) in four of the trial participants. The story seems to be legit across all news platforms and said that all four cases of Bell's Palsy were in the vaccine group and none were in the placebo group.

https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/covid-vaccine-bells-palsy

The document reveals that four cases of Bell's palsy, a condition that causes temporary facial paralysis, were identified in study participants who received the vaccine—but in none of the participants who received a placebo.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Is this brand new (using antifreeze in a vaccine) or has it been done before

First, I should clarify that the word "antifreeze" refers to any liquid or wax that prevents water from freezing. Some of these liquids can be harmful, and some are perfectly harmless.

I don't think that any previous vaccine needed these types of liquids or wax before, because previous vaccines did not need to be kept at such low temperatures before. These mRNA vaccines must be kept at very low temperatures to preserve the mRNA.

 

[ljimbo423]

I wonder if without adjuvants it is less likely to cause autoimmune reactions?

This I don't know.

Does this mean that it does not contain the small grain size amount of aluminum after all?

I'm pretty sure the list of ingredients I posted is all of them. But it's possible that aluminum is contained in one those ingredients.

 

[Gingergrrl]

First, I should clarify that the word "antifreeze" refers to any liquid or wax that prevents water from freezing. Some of these liquids can be harmful, and some are perfectly harmless.

Thank you for explaining that!

I'm pretty sure the list of ingredients I posted is all of them. But it's possible that aluminum is contained in one those ingredients.

I had thought that @bertiedog said that the Pfizer vaccine contained a very small amount of aluminum (like the size of a grain of sand) which would be an adjuvant. But the ingredients do not list aluminum and the articles say that there are no adjuvants (so maybe they used the other salts instead of aluminum salts)?

 

[ljimbo423]

I had thought that @bertiedog said that the Pfizer vaccine contained a very small amount of aluminum (like the size of a grain of sand) which would be an adjuvant. But the ingredients do not list aluminum and the articles say that there are no adjuvants (so maybe they used the other salts instead of aluminum salts)?

I didn't know aluminum is an adjuvant. So it can't be in the Pfizer vaccine if it is.

 

[Rebeccare]

I wonder if without adjuvants it is less likely to cause autoimmune reactions?

And I wonder if without adjuvants it might be less likely to cause allergic reactions (in spite of the fact that we know it can cause allergic reactions)

 

[Neunistiva]

I have severe ME/CFS and never had any issues with vaccines so I am most likely going to take it as soon as it becomes available to me.

I had hepatitis B vaccine (and many others) and didn't develop ME/CFS from it, nor had any other reactions. I got ME/CFS many years later, so despite obviously having a potential for ME/CFS in my body, the vaccine didn't do anything to trigger it.

I have also had flu shot each winter without any permanent consequences, while a simple common cold permanently deteriorates me every time.

I don't think we will ever have proper research specifically on people with ME/CFS but by the time my turn comes a lot of healthy people will have had the vaccine. If they don't die from it, and they are obviously dying from COVID-19, the choice is very clear.

 

[bertiedog]

Thank you for explaining that!



I had thought that @bertiedog said that the Pfizer vaccine contained a very small amount of aluminum (like the size of a grain of sand) which would be an adjuvant. But the ingredients do not list aluminum and the articles say that there are no adjuvants (so maybe they used the other salts instead of aluminum salts)?

No I said I didn't know what the ingredients were in the Pfizer vaccine or come to that the Astra Zeneca one either. Just to clarify.

Pam

 

[Wayne]

Informative Post (on a tinnitus forum) by a man who got COVID-19, along with his girlfriend.

"I thought I would post this here to help add to the already mounting evidence that the COVID-19 virus is very destructive to the entire body. I also wanted to post this to squash people who say this is a hoax / not that bad...​

​

The initial infection cleared up after two long painful months, but unfortunately for me it is now back and worse than before. Now my hands and feet have lesions, swelling, redness and tingling feelings. This is very uncomfortable and painful to deal with again, but my doctor and I are working to find the best treatments..."​

 

[Sushi]

Here is another question: It is common for ME/CFS patients to have very low natural killer cell activity (I have myself been tested and my NK cell activity was very low). How might this affect mounting the necessary immune response if given an mRNA vaccine?

 

[Gingergrrl]

And I wonder if without adjuvants it might be less likely to cause allergic reactions (in spite of the fact that we know it can cause allergic reactions)

That is very good question and I just read the CDC info re: vaccine adjuvants (in general, not re: COVID vaccines). It seems that adjuvants help to stimulate a stronger immune response from the vaccine (and I can see how they can trigger or worsen autoimmunity). It doesn't specifically say anything re: allergies & adjuvants (although to me it makes sense that any extra additive can increase the chance of an allergic reaction). Although the Pfizer vaccine does not have adjuvants but is already causing anaphylaxis in the very first people to receive it. Here is the CDC link re: adjuvants and some excerpts:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/adjuvants.html

An adjuvant is an ingredient used in some vaccines that helps create a stronger immune response in people receiving the vaccine. In other words, adjuvants help vaccines work better. Some vaccines that are made from weakened or killed germs contain naturally occurring adjuvants and help the body produce a strong protective immune response. However, most vaccines developed today include just small components of germs, such as their proteins, rather than the entire virus or bacteria. Adjuvants help the body to produce an immune response strong enough to protect the person from the disease he or she is being vaccinated against. Adjuvanted vaccines can cause more local reactions (such as redness, swelling, and pain at the injection site) and more systemic reactions (such as fever, chills and body aches) than non-adjuvanted vaccines.

Aluminum salts, such as aluminum hydroxide, aluminum phosphate, and aluminum potassium sulfate have been used safely in vaccines for more than 70 years. Aluminum salts were initially used in the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s with diphtheria and tetanus vaccines after it was found they strengthened the body’s immune response to these vaccines.

Aluminum-containing adjuvants are vaccine ingredients that have been used in vaccines since the 1930s. Small amounts of aluminum are added to help the body build stronger immunity against the germ in the vaccine. Aluminum is one of the most common metals found in nature and is present in air, food, and water. Scientific research has shown the amount of aluminum exposure in people who follow the recommended vaccine schedule is low and is not readily absorbed by the body. Read the research on aluminum exposure and vaccines.external icon Also, see FDA’s web page on common ingredients in U.S. licensed vaccinesexternal icon for more information.

Newer adjuvants have been developed to target specific components of the body’s immune response, so that protection against disease is stronger and lasts longer. In all cases, vaccines containing adjuvants are tested for safety and effectiveness in clinical trials before they are licensed for use in the United States, and they are continuously monitored by CDC and FDA once they are approved.

Now back to the thread...

I have severe ME/CFS and never had any issues with vaccines so I am most likely going to take it as soon as it becomes available to me.

I think everyone is different and I've read many cases of people in which a vaccine was the actual trigger of their ME/CFS (or of other chronic illnesses). That is why I think for pwME, or any illness that makes their immune system abnormal, (both immuno-compromised and/or autoimmune diseases) the decision to get a vaccine should be on an individual case by case basis. It definitely sounds that in your case getting the vaccine is the right decision.

I don't think we will ever have proper research specifically on people with ME/CFS but by the time my turn comes a lot of healthy people will have had the vaccine.

I agree and I don't think we will have research on any chronic illness populations (only on healthy subjects with normal immune systems who also do not have a history of anaphylaxis). I think it will be a risk/benefit analysis for each patient with their doctor (if they have a doctor who knows their history and risk factors both pro and con).

No I said I didn't know what the ingredients were in the Pfizer vaccine or come to that the Astra Zeneca one either. Just to clarify. Pam

I apologize, Pam, and I totally read it wrong! I had thought that you said that you spoke to a doctor in the UK who said that the COVID vaccines contained a tiny grain of sand amount of aluminum (as an adjuvant) which made me wonder if perhaps the vaccine had different variations/ingredients in different countries. But you were talking about other vaccines and NOT the COVID vaccine which I now understand

Informative Post (on a tinnitus forum) by a man who got COVID-19, along with his girlfriend.

I read your link but wasn't sure if it was connected to the vaccine or more about COVID symptoms in general?

How might this affect mounting the necessary immune response if given an mRNA vaccine?

This is another good question. I think that vaccines require solid working B-cells & T-cells to mount an immune response but I am not sure about NK cells? I know from the 2+ years that I was getting Rituximab (and I had no B-cells), I was absolutely forbidden to get a vaccine and was not even supposed to be near someone who had gotten a "live vaccine". So I know with absolute certainty that B-cells are required to mount an immune response to vaccines but I am not sure about NK cells?