Coronavirus Vaccine(s)

[joshkz]

i used to have a lot of allergy problems, i would never ever take the vaccine because of that ...... I`m not interestead in a docs opionion on it either, given the massive stupidity i`ve seen in the English medical profession in the last 30 yrs..... theres a much longer story..... I am concerned about what the outcome will be for those that dont take it.....

 

[Fat Viking]

yes: this is the huge problem with the labelling of people with entirely valid concerns- " antivax" and now your a member of some conspiracy club.

The interesting thing about concerns regarding vaccinations is its- our most well informed and best educated who have these concerns.

You don't need to be One or the other, there's a middle ground which is for safe-Vaccines.

 

[andyguitar]

Another vaccine looks good!

 

[roller]

are the countries with the most dense "medical net" those with the highest fatalities ?

those, where you have to see a doc or visit a hospital ?

 

[Machair]

I am really hoping that a well respected Immunologist such as Nancy Klimas is going to advise us what do to in relation to vaccination.

In the UK it is becoming a pressure that appears to be building to comply- no question. For example last night during questions at a press conference "Will there be mandatory vaccines for certain professions?" was asked and the question was brushed over. The final comment was " Be ready if you are called" I think this is what is causing so much worry to groups such as ourselves who have fought for so many years to stay the right side of collapse. I walk a fine line between being upright and able to function and participate in family life and to complete household chores, but was forced to give up my career as a nurse due to ME. We need advice as time goes on about the different vaccines as one may be more suitable than another.

I think also many are worried about how we will be able to do things if we choose not to be vaccinated. For example could you use public transport or attend a hospital appointment or dentist if a certificate is required?

This issue is a major worry not just for those with ME who choose not to be vaccinated. Indeed in the UK there are now almost a quarter of a million signatures on a petition about this issue.

 

[pamojja]

are the countries with the most dense "medical net" those with the highest fatalities ?

Especially true comparing the US with India, the 2 countries with by far the most tested positive persons: 11,500,000 versus 8,900,000. India with almost half the total death. But as death per million of population even 762 vs. 94. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Operation Wharp speed neccesitates getting emergeny authorisation of vaccines without the usual long savety precautionary testing. Only allowed when there are absolutely no therapeutics available.

 

[JES]

are the countries with the most dense "medical net" those with the highest fatalities ?

those, where you have to see a doc or visit a hospital ?

More likely factor is the higher average age of population compared to developing countries and diseases of affluence making COVID-19 deadlier.

 

[pamojja]

It's been tested on 46,500 people and is 90% effective. Will be available this year.

Hard to find out what they mean with '90% effective'. Today found an analysis by Mercola:

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/11/18/first-covid-19-vaccine-90-percent-effective.aspx?u

..In fact, their endpoints all require confirmed infections and all those they will include in the analysis for success, the only difference being the severity of symptoms between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Measuring differences amongst only those infected by SARS-CoV-2 underscores the implicit conclusion that the vaccines are not expected to prevent infection, only modify symptoms of those infected.”

So 90% effective in reduced symptoms of infected only, which might be as mild as a cough.

An other study on a preprint server found today, honestly gives much more hope:

Synergistic Effect of Quercetin and Vitamin C Against COVID-19: Is a Possible Guard for Front Liners

This study aimed to evaluate if quercetin and vitamin C could be protective against Novel Coronavirus.

Methods: In prophylaxis group supplementation containing 500mg of quercetin, 500mg of vitamin C and 50mg of bromelain (QCB) was initiated daily in 2 divided doses for 71 healthcare workers working in areas with high risk of COVID-19, whereas 42 were determined as control group without using supplements.A maximum period of follow-up was determined as 120 days.Termination of use of QCB earlier or having a Coronavirus infection was considered as final point.At the end rapid diagnostic test used to detect immunoglobulin positivity.

Results: A total of 113 persons included. No significant difference detected between groups in terms of other features.Mean age of QCB group was 39.0 ± 8.8 years and control group was 32.9 ± 8.7.Average follow-up period for the QCB group was 113 days, and for the control group, 118, during follow-up period, 1 healthcare worker in QCB group and 9 out of 42 in control group had COVID-19.One of cases was asymptomatic, while others were not.Transmission risk hazard ratio whose did not receive QCB was 12.04 (95% Confidence interval= 1.26-115.06, P = 0.031).No significant effect of gender, smoking, antihypertensive medication exposure and having chronic disease on rate of transmission.

Conclusion: This study revealed that QCB was protective for healthcare workers.

Therefore a total of 113 study participants:

71 in the study group receiving 500 mg vitamin C and quercetine/bromelain. 1 tested covid-positive = 1,4%
42 in the control group receiving nothing. 9 tested positive = 21%

Despite being daily at high risk for infection, those health-care workers even after 3 month remained for the vast part - 91% - covid negative. Which again hints at the mucosal and cellular immunity against this virus already prevalent in the vast majority of the population.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

So 90% effective in reduced symptoms of infected only, which might be as mild as a cough.

So basically- one still gets COVID- just has lessor symptom severity. So I wonder if that means the risk of long haul effects is unchanged by vaccination.

 

[pamojja]

So basically- one still gets COVID- just has lessor symptom severity. So I wonder if that means the risk of long haul effects is unchanged by vaccination.

No. Just that they, for whatever otherworldly reason, have decided not to look for prevention of disease with this vaccine, but only decrease in disease symptoms. A preventive effect might still be there, but can't be found if not looked for

Long term covid, if we compare to any other post-viral syndromes, if serious like ME/CFS, will last decades and sadly for many forever. Much too early to tell anything for sure. Other that long covid at worst lasted 9 month till now.

 

[ljimbo423]

So basically- one still gets COVID- just has lessor symptom severity. So I wonder if that means the risk of long haul effects is unchanged by vaccination.

The new Messenger RNA vaccine from Moderna prevents about 95% of people from getting the virus. They do not get sick at all. I'm pretty sure the vaccine from Pfizer works in the same way, by preventing Covid 19 in about 90% of people. At least this is what the data shows so far.

This is from the New York Times-

The scientists randomly assigned volunteers to get either the Moderna vaccine or a placebo. The trial was blinded, meaning that neither the volunteers nor the people running the trial knew who got what.

Over time, some of the volunteers got sick with Covid-19. To get a preliminary sense of how the trial was going, an independent board of experts took a look at the first 95 participants who got sick.

Ninety of them had received the placebo, and only five had been given the vaccine. Based on that data, the board estimated that the vaccine is 94.5 percent effective.

Out of the 95 people who got sick in the Moderna study, 11 experienced severe disease. None of those 11 people were vaccinated.

In other words, the five vaccinated people who got sick experienced only mild symptoms, and all of the severe cases were participants from the placebo group.

The split suggests that Moderna’s vaccine doesn’t just block the virus in most cases, but also shields the people who do get sick from the worst outcomes of the disease. It also eases concerns that a vaccine for Covid-19 may make the disease worse, not better.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/moderna-covid-19-vaccine

This is from CNN-

In Moderna's trial, 15,000 study participants were given a placebo, which is a shot of saline that has no effect. Over several months, 90 of them developed Covid-19, with 11 developing severe forms of the disease.

Another 15,000 participants were given the vaccine, and only five of them developed Covid-19. None of the five became severely ill.

The company says its vaccine did not have any serious side effects. A small percentage of those who received it experienced symptoms such as body aches and headaches.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/16/health/moderna-vaccine-results-coronavirus/index.html

 

[junkcrap50]

Operation Wharp speed neccesitates getting emergeny authorisation of vaccines without the usual long savety precautionary testing. Only allowed when there are absolutely no therapeutics available.

There are plenty of therapeutics available and indicated in the literature. Some are not approved in the US (but available in rest of the world), so should be able to emergency approve them. But the main reason is the medical establishment completely take incomplete / imperfect data and only approve of *perfect* studies that are double blinded, random, placebo controlled, text-book & narrowly designed studies.

So 90% effective in reduced symptoms of infected only, which might be as mild as a cough.

So basically- one still gets COVID- just has lessor symptom severity. So I wonder if that means the risk of long haul effects is unchanged by vaccination.

Yes. Those are the only claims they can make, because that's how they designed their studies. They didn't study to see if it is effective in preventing COVID.

No. Just that they, for whatever otherworldly reason, have decided not to look for prevention of disease with this vaccine, but only decrease in disease symptoms. A preventive effect might still be there, but can't be found if not looked for

Too big of a risk for a negative study result and loss of moneyy. If they only look at "reduce symptoms" there's enough ambiguity there that they can claim success - thus money. Whoever has the vaccine first is getting the biggest check - not necessarily the most effective, safest, best vaccine.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Generally, from what I heard, taking multiple immune stimulators (vaccines are immune stimulators) in short period of time significantly increases chances of side effects.

I am concerned about this as well since the core of my illness is autoimmunity, and the treatments that led to my remission were immune suppressants (and modulators). The last thing I want to do is to stimulate my immune system and re-trigger the autoimmunity. I think there is a very high chance that I would have a negative immune reaction from a COVID vaccine which would trigger a reaction like Guillain Barre (for me).

I have never gotten a flu shot in my life and cannot use this as a comparison (and I also have not had any vaccines since I got sick). In addition, I have concerns that I would be allergic to the adjuvants used in the vaccine. I do not want to get COVID but if the vaccine triggered a relapse where I could no longer breathe or walk again, I am not willing to take that risk.

But I do worry what happens if they try to make the COVID vaccine mandatory here? I do not think that they can literally make it mandatory but they can make it so that you cannot go to public places, do any kind of work, or travel without it. I wonder if it is possible to get a medical exemption if a doctor were to deem that the vaccine would be medically dangerous for an individual person?

 

[Rufous McKinney]

But I do worry what happens if they try to make the COVID vaccine mandatory here? I do not think that they can literally make it mandatory but they can make it so that you cannot go to public places, do any kind of work, or travel without it. I wonder if it is possible to get a medical exemption if a doctor were to deem that the vaccine would be medically dangerous for an individual person?

Well, my state has mandated over 70 vaccines for all children and they can't go to public or private school without them. My grandaughter is now in a foreign country. I think adults are being compelled to receive excessive vaccinations if you desire to go to a college.

My friend in her 30s with autoimmune disorders is told its required that she get 9 vaccinations before her classes started. thats 9, and they could care less about her autoimmune disorders. Later, she then got some notice that said nevermind all those vaccinations. Does anyone care about her health? No, they don't seem to.

It then seems ironic they won't be able to vaccinate any of these children (or PG women) for COVID because they aren't doing safety studies on those cohorts...at least not at the present time.

There is almost no one left in our state to dare write an exemption.

So what happens to so many of us who likely should not be indescriminately vaccinated without very careful consideration...and that consideration is lacking?

 

[Gingergrrl]

Well, my state has mandated over 70 vaccines for all children and they can't go to public or private school without them. My grandaughter is now in a foreign country. I think adults are being compelled to receive excessive vaccinations if you desire to go to a college.

I live in the same state as you and you are totally correct that schools (public and private) as well as colleges are mandating vaccines for children, teens, and adults in order to attend the school/ college. I am concerned about other family members who are still in school and/or college and this will be required for them.

What I am not sure though is if the government can mandate a COVID vaccine for all adults (who are not attending school or do not work in healthcare, etc). I suspect though that they can make it near impossible to avoid getting one, meaning that you cannot fly on a plane or travel, you cannot do any kind of paid work or volunteer work, you cannot have surgery, you cannot go to many public places, etc, without one.

My friend in her 30s with autoimmune disorders is told its required that she get 9 vaccinations before her classes started. thats 9, and they could care less about her autoimmune disorders. Later, she then got some notice that said nevermind all those vaccinations.

When your friend with autoimmune disease got a notice that said "never mind re: the vaccines" (for college classes) do you know why she got it? Did they ultimately give her a medical exemption b/c she had a doctor's note?

So what happens to so many of us who likely should not be indescriminately vaccinated without very careful consideration...and that consideration is lacking?

It is a very good question and I have researched it re: the flu shot in the past (but not for COVID vaccine). There are exemptions for the flu shot for religious reasons and for medical reasons. I know someone can get a doctor's note to exempt them from getting the flu shot if they are allergic to eggs or if they are pre-disposed to an autoimmune reaction like Guillain Barre Syndrome.

Edited to Add: I just wanted to add that I am not anti-vaccine across the board and am not against a COVID vaccine. I am just not sure that it will be safe for me given my own medical history.

 

[Judee]

This op-ed from the NYT has some good points: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/22/opinion/covid-vaccine-coronavirus.html

Plus, I did hear of one death in the Brazilian trial that Aztra-Zenaca was doing:https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020...er-in-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-trial-dies

 

[ljimbo423]

Plus, I did hear of one death in the Brazilian trial that Aztra-Zenaca was doing:

It has not been made public if the person that died from Covid complications received the vaccine or placebo. If it was the placebo, it's sad but doesn't reflect on the safety of the vaccine.

If it was someone that received the vaccine, then that needs to be further investigated to see why they died.

Brazil’s National Health Surveillance Agency (ANVISA) said on Wednesday that a volunteer in a clinical trial of the COVID-19 vaccine developed by AstraZeneca and Oxford University had died, but said the trial would continue.


It was not immediately clear whether the volunteer received the vaccine or the placebo.

The regulator said while testing of the vaccine would continue, it provided no further details about the volunteer’s death, citing the medical confidentiality of those involved in trials.

Following careful assessment of this case in Brazil, there have been no concerns about safety of the clinical trial, and the independent review in addition to the Brazilian regulator have recommended that the trial should continue,” the British university said in a statement.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Did they ultimately give her a medical exemption b/c she had a doctor's note?

My recollection was she Got the 9 vaccinations. After she got them, a never mind notice happened...why I'm not sure. I need to do more fact finding.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

What I am not sure though is if the government can mandate a COVID vaccine for all adults (who are not attending school or do not work in healthcare, etc).

I "think" its possible ....at the state level- if states pass a law that requires it.

I never thought it would be possible for California to impose this requirement on the children and on schools. It seemed an impossiblity.

You wake up one day and can't believe it.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I know someone can get a doctor's note to exempt them from getting the flu shot if they are allergic to eggs or if they are pre-disposed to an autoimmune reaction like Guillain Barre Syndrome.

That seems to still be the case- currently they have mandated flu shots for fall 2020.

So it appears the UC system does allow for a very narrow read of exemptions...that mostly aren't available for the children.

so : you have a bad case of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis- that does not qualify as anything.